2019-04-18 16:22:43

I already know the type of feedback I'm going to receive. Then the question asked, so why bother? Because I don't care about my reputation on here. I've already stated several times I need to accept blindness, but this is the opposite, so reputation out the window. With that out of the way, the issue.

All a white cane does is detects things before you do. It can be objects in your path, or topography on the ground. No, that's not all. The white cane has given us a public image. And I don't know about you, but I'm scared of being represented by public images. Some people can get over that fact, that they have something that automatically ties them to a public image, but there are others who wish to remain free from a public image and assign their own image to those who they want to share it with, and not have an image to those who they don't wish to share their image with.

So getting back to what the white cane does. It just detects objects. It also takes away a hand's ability to do other things. There has to be another way right? I mean it is just detecting objects for you. I could just have a camera around my front, back, and sides pointing in every direction. Yeah I would be putting on a full suit, and eventually it would get me a public image, but it wouldn't be the same public image. When people see the white cane, they automatically think, they need help. My personal opinion is that the stick we have doesn't give anyone confidence. Think about it. It is a small stick, and nothing more. But if you had cameras on your body, people would say, oh, those cameras can show them detection of objects, plus, it looks may cooler than holding a stick. And, hands free. I already know the design he cameras would have so that all angles would be shown, and it would give vibrating feedback. If you want more details on how it would work I will give them.

Yeah, these cameras would be expensive, that's why suits aren't available to replace canes. But I would much rather have that than a white cane, because I think the public image would make people a lot more confident in us. They would see the cameras and not a stick. They would have a better understanding of how the cameras help us, since a stick gives no information as to how it helps us. They would be more amazed, but also have a higher confidence that we know what we are doing.

2019-04-18 16:36:51 (edited by Dark 2019-04-18 16:38:58)

@Zarvox you say "A small stick" I wonder what sort of cane your using.
Used properly a long cane can give you a lot of information you wouldn't get otherwise, indeed without a dog it is the best way of detecting things like down steps in front of you, or obstacles.

yeah, some scifi camera system would be cool, but the plane fact is we don't have that yet, so we need to use what's available.

I used a long cane for 17 years and went round the world with one, including at university most of the time on my own, and still use  when Reever my guide dog needs a break. I wouldn't take it everywhere, usually if i was inside a house or single room I'd just fold the thing up, but when walking around the streets or in a large building like  university building or hospital I'd always have it with me.

My own feeling is that the long cane is there for me! Its there to make my life easier, I'd feel much more stupid, and likely get injured falling down the stairs without one. Everyone else can think what the hell they like.

Besides, odds are people will see your blind anyway whether you have a cane or not, so why bother missing out on something that can be helpful to you and risk injuring yourself just because of what someone else might think?

I'd say its nothing to do with "accepting blindness", its more just having the confidence to use what is available and tell everyone else to shove it, rather than just wanting to be one of the usual sheep.

I'm not ashamed of being blind, I'm not proud of it either, its just something I have to deal with, end of story.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-04-18 16:38:02

sso basically your two scared to need help sometimes?
Your statement about not leaving hands free is false, you only need one hand for a cane, the other one can be held out in fron t of your face.
If you wanta walk around a strange area without any way to detect that curb, or that uncovered manhole, feel free.
But it's stupid, pointless, and a little rediculous.

People need to accept the fact that they are blind! They think they don't need any help what so ever, and they can do anything that a sighted person can do, no! You! Are! Rong! You can not do half the things, if not more, that a sighted person can do.
Pleas, please, please, get that into your head.

----------
“Yes, sir. I am attempting to fill a silent moment with non-relevant conversation.”
“You don’t tell me how to behave; you’re not my mother!”
“Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.” – Data (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

2019-04-18 16:40:09

Personally redfox, I always needed less help using a cane than I would without one, and since I admit I do have a bit of an issue accepting help from people and tend to want to do everything myself, that is quite a thing for me.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-04-18 16:42:22

The cameras would detect topography, you don't think I thought of that?

2019-04-18 16:42:24 (edited by Mitch 2019-04-18 16:44:52)

The issue is, in my opinnion, that cameras don't give you that tactile feedback. I don't think technology has progressed to a point where it can differentiate between the sidewalk and a street and quickly warn you about them. Even if it has, it is probably eyatering expensive.
I personally will be gejting a guide dog, as for me, that will improve
my speed of travel. While the cane tells people that we are blind, I think that people would think that you would need help, as if you wore a camera suit, I think there's a specific gait that blind people walk with, and I think sighted people know that gait, and assume that we need help.
Furthermore, outfiting a suit with cameras that are good enough to detect these things could cost thousands of dollars. What happens if one of them breaks? You might have to either replace that one, or worst case scenario, replace the whole suit.
Canes, however, can be replaced for under $40. Canes are much more cost-effective compared to a camera suit.
Regarding your argument about being hands-free, that is true. However, keep in mind that you could get a backpack that could carry some of the things that require two hands to carry (except softener salt, those things are a pain)...

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2019-04-18 16:58:52

OK, after rereading all the posts that were here, I want to add a few things.
How can you be 100% sure that having a suit would create more public confidence in us?
If you did wear the suit, you would still look different from the normal person. In the real world, we are perceived o blind first. That's just how society is. African Americans are judged by their race, LGBTQ by their sexual orientation, and people with disabilities by the disability in question. I believe that wearing a suit won't change the publi image of needing help. Also, how can you be sure that you will become more confident with a suit rather than a cane?
I'm just asking these questions to understand your reasoning.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2019-04-18 17:10:42 (edited by defender 2019-04-18 17:13:40)

What about the weatherproofing, what about the weight (and heat) in warm months, what about when your in a crowd of people, what about overhead obstacles. What about the battery power limitations, what about the code that's supposed to be so good your willing to put your life in it's hands even though we are still years from making autonomous cars safe enough to have confidence in and they have massive corporations behind them. and most importantly for the majority of potential users, what about the cost, how will you get blindness organizations to believe your solution is safer, more convenient, and more socially acceptable enough to justify that massive difference, when many of them can hardly get enough grant money to keep running the programs they do have.


I'm glad people are thinking about this because eventually something concrete could come out of these ideas, but ideas are a dime a dozen, while good ideas that could actually work and have real planning behind them are priceless.


And yeah, the cane marks you in allot of negative ways I agree, but that can be useful too.  Ask a low vision person how often they have to convince people they need basic assistance, because they don't look blind.
Plus, what is your excuse for slightly bumping into people, walking on the wrong part of the path, not seeing people's cues to move out of the way or go somewhere, or touching things to find out what they are for future reference if you have no cane.  Someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence is going to realize oh hey, he's blind, that's why he's doing that because he has to.
It's also important for showing drivers at an uncontrolled crossing when you want to go, since you can't make eye contact or see them wave, and for making sure your moving with a line or finding a free seat on a bus.  Doing so without a cane would be much more awkward.


People will see a blind person doing well with a cane and walking places with confidence and independents, and say wow! That blind guy is doing all that? I didn't even know that was possible! That's awesome!
So it's more the person behind the cane in the end, especially if you have enough social confidence to strike up conversations with people and to laugh off simple mistakes, since they'll happen probably multiple times a day if you lead an active lifestyle.

2019-04-18 17:16:22 (edited by Mitch 2019-04-18 17:20:02)

Well put Defender. I think it comes down to a person's level of confidence. As a kid, I fell down the stairs one too many times, and now I'm very cautious, and I'm not that confjdent in my cane skills. I con't think having a camera suit would change that. However, if I were to have a camera suit, it has to be a working Spiderman costume that allows me to cling to walls.

A winner is you!
—Urban Champion

2019-04-18 17:51:13

@8 good points. I already know it is too expensive  and yes I’ve thought about obstacles brushing up against the lenses, and overcrowding.  I just wanted to see if other people had the idea of replacing the cane as well, because we have been using canes for a very very long time. And I know the phrase, if it isn’t broken don’t fix it, but I just thought we could have something  different for a change.

2019-04-18 17:51:31 (edited by Dark 2019-04-18 17:53:58)

I'd love a camera suit, and if one was available you can bet I'd use it.
The problem is that one is not available, and wishing for one is not going to make it available any time soon, right now a cane is what you have, albeit a cane augmented with satnav and other devices.

As to the marking as blind, to be honest I don't necessarily agree with Defender that you necessarily need! something to mark you as blind for other people, if other people find what I do weird, well that's their problem not mine, and in my general experience people tend  to think of you as weird anyway just because of stupid things like eye contact etc, whether your holding a cane or not.

As to a camera suit, I love the idea  but again it'd firstly take a lot more work and research, especially into Ai technology being able to recognize things, and secondly it'd probably cost the earth anyway, since the second you say "accessibility" you can add a couple of zeroes onto the price.

As to "replacing a cane",  well there are points a cane is currently necessary, even if you have a guide dog and I imagine the same would be true with a camera system too, EG when your camera system is rechargging, when it is updating, or heck just when your in an environment that your ai can't recognise the obstacles in.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-04-18 17:52:05

If you can make a camera suit that does the same things as a cane does (approximates the same types of feedback, is easily foldable and has a string loopy thinggy to put a ring of keys on), then I'll happily buy it if it's under $100. Otherwise I don't see the use as of now.

2019-04-18 17:57:17

Ok, that's more of what I was asking, would you replace it if you could. I got a little to into my imagination in post 1. I knew that there were lots of problems, and others have aded onto the list of negatives and positives. I thought the public image part was interesting. Each person reacts differently, so really no matter what it probably wont change. And the idea that it's how you walk with confidence instead of what you are using to display confidence is probably headed in the right direction. So thanks for thefeedback on that.

2019-04-18 17:59:33

and @9 lol, let's you stick to walls.

2019-04-18 18:01:52

We have to play the hand we're dealt man. That means making this blindness thing right with yourself, becoming OK with it. It's time to start heading down the road to that, and it's also time to stop trying to justify your clinging onto the last vestiges of sightedness by using fantasies of new tech, which doesn't exist. You're probably doing it in other ways too, which means that you're lying to yourself on the daily. I can't claim the type of experiences you've had, I was born as I am, and I know it must be hard. I can only imagine bro, I can't claim experiences I haven't had. What I do know is that you know you have a problem, but you're in limbo about it. The problem is, to have confidence, it has to come from within yourself, and to have confidence in your skills, you have to have said skills, so, remembering to be honest with yourself, do you have good mobility skills? Because people are out here caneless, I mean totals are out here doing their thing without canes on the daily, so it can be done. Do I necessarily think it's a good idea, no, but everybody gets to make their own decisions. For you though, at least be honest with yourself when you come to a decision. It sounds as if you do need that cane, and that having it and using it properly will benefit you. Man, life is short. It doesn't feel that way, but it is. The older you get, the more time flies past. It's crazy that way, and it will happen to you. So, don't waste  this time in your life, grab the bull by the horns and say to yourself, "I'm done with living in limbo", then get that damn cane and use it. It's going to cause you to have negative experiences, people often see us as helpless creatures, but you take things as they come, you learn to roll with the punches. Blindness comes with its own bullshit, you get bumble fucks on your ass all the time about stupid shit, how do you get dressed, where's your carer, are you here by yourself (astonished tone). Yeah, you're gonna have moments where you're like, here we go again, another adventure in bumble fuck land, but you keep on truckin' anyhow.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-04-18 18:14:47

a few things i would like to say.
1. I don't know where you live but where i live everybody respects the white cane. Even if i'm  holding a friend's arm and holding my cane folded, cars will slow down and give us way to pass the streets if they spot my cane. I'd like that level of respect and i like to have that power in my hand while i'm outside.
2. I feel literally disabled and helpless if i don't hold this small stick that you speak of while walking outside. Maybe you don't know how to use the cane  to its full potential but i can  easily see my path in front of my foot with the cane. Is there an actual alternative tech that can replace this efficiency? no. Do i want an alternative? yes!
3. I still can't forget the time when i was holding my visually impaired teacher's arm as we were walking the corridor of a subway station and he suddenly began slamming his cane unnaturally hard as he navigated forward with the pencil tip cane. I immediately shrank in embarrassment and as the sound of the cane was echoing the corridor walls around me, i was wondering to myself what the hell is this man doing, with this age everyone is going to look at him and think that he's, think that... he's blind!. at that age,  i never wanted to appear that way while i was walking that corridor. I was scared of the click sound of the cane specially because it sounded loud in that specific place and i was pretty sure people who are passing by are going to notice it and see that i'm different. So yes, acceptance. He taught me that i should accept that i have to be seen with a white cane because that was the only way for me to walk outside.
Does holding a white cane give you some sort of public image? yes! IS that the only thing that gives you public image? no! there is your hair, the clothings that you're wearing, the way you walk.
You wanna go outside looking like iron man that is fine but you gotta understand that  that option is not on the table for you at this time. I doubt that there's a footwear camera that could alert you of a small bump in front of you so precise that you wouldn't accidentally trip over it and go stumbling to the ground.

twitter: @hadirezae3
discord: Hadi

2019-04-18 18:18:30

Off topic, I want to find out the other ways I am lying to myself. That's why I joined this forum, because I know I do these types of things. And discussions like this always get me back into shape. I remember writing the people touching blind people topic. I reach out to this forum so I can bring good discussions to the table, but also have people bring me back to the reality of being blind when I start lying to myself or denying the obvious. So thank you all for having discussions like this, fantasy or real and helpful, it helps me get my mind back to where it needs to be.

2019-04-18 18:25:40

@16 Maybe it is time to tell my o and m teacher that I am embarassed to hold the white cane. Is that why I don't care about safety when traveling? Maybe it is. I hope so, because safety is extremely important, and I people's words of safety are starting to get through to me at once. But I believe it is time to tell my teacher that I am embarrassed to hold it and attach myself to the public image of it. I can't throw away my safety simply because I am scared of being attached to an image. I have to sacrifice security for safety.

2019-04-18 18:32:07

I agree with Dark. The cane is a tool, so use it. It doesn't matter what most people think of you. Most people are idiots anyway. Educate people that have honest questions are are willing to treat you like a human being once they learn and understand.

Is the cane perfect? Absolutely not! It can't detect overhead obstacles or give you detailed information about the environment around you. I personally think the best solution is a cane combined with some sort of extremely accurate GPS, a camera mounted on some glasses, and either really advanced object recognition or a human on a video connection. We have services like Aira, but they are prohibitively expensive for most people unless you can convince a government agency or employer to foot the monthly bill.

If a guide dog would help you, go for it. I personally don't want a dog for a variety of reasons. The top two being I don't want to take care of and babysit a dog, and said dog isn't going to actively inform me of what's around me in great detail. Yeah, the dog might be able to guide you around obstacles and eventually learn a route, but it's not going to tell you "Oh hey, the restaurant door is behind you and 10 feet to the left." Also, you can't just turn the dog off when you don't need it. That's why we got rid of horses. When you can put down your cane, or turn off your car and it patiently waits for you to return, why bother with anything else?

What I will say is be confident! Don't worry what most people think when they look at you, and don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. We live in a visual world, and we just have to work around the information barrier. There's no magical cure for blindness, and people who cling to that are living in a fantasy world. The almighty lord and master God isn't going to come down and arbitrarily heal us, and there's no such thing as real magic as far as we know.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-04-18 18:33:00

[email protected] wow I'm impressed that cars etc stopp in Persia for someone with a white cane. Over here its more as if you don't exist, though I wouldn't attribute that to the cane as to blindness generally.

@Zarvox people will see your blind anyway no matter what you do. Even if your eye condition is not one which shows as abnormal, people will gather that by the way you move around, the way you don't make eye contact etc.

Since people are going to do that anyway, why deny yourself something that could help you get out, be more independent and yes, look less! helpless, since believe me, you will get far more negative attention for falling down a step in the street or walking smack into a post than for finding it with your cane first and negotiating your way around it.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-04-18 18:38:50

@Zarvox.
Looking back at your history, it seems to me that you have a lot of mental and or emotional issues.

You have said that you wish to make people suffer because you are blind...

Here is what I have gathered:

  • You whent blind, and believed that it was everybody elses' fault.

  • Based on this, you wish to take out your anger on them, even people who have nothin  to do with you.

  • You hate, or vary much dislike, being blind, and resent it, thinking you don't need help and that you are perfect.

You may deny this, but I honestly think it is true.

----------
“Yes, sir. I am attempting to fill a silent moment with non-relevant conversation.”
“You don’t tell me how to behave; you’re not my mother!”
“Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.” – Data (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

2019-04-18 18:39:02 (edited by Jod 2019-04-18 18:39:33)

LOL when people see the white cane they only try to help you, not hate you that's because you mentioned the public image, heard of any blind terrorist who hid bombs inside of a white cane and murdered people? i didn't, unless you are a god and can't accept help from humans there's no reason to be embarrased

2019-04-18 19:09:15 (edited by Zarvox 2019-04-18 19:12:31)

@21 My mind and my heart are 2 different people. Personality disorder I agree. Mental issues well yeah, personality counts, and proabaly some other minor things I haven't explored. Emotional, definitely. Socially, can't even begin to describe. But my heart and my mind are opposites. You are only looking at my mind, not my heart. So does that mean my mind is posting these topics? Interesting question, haven't  thought about it. I think it is just me finding my way in the blindness that is asking, with my mind influencing the subjects.

2019-04-18 19:17:27

Hey folks. People will always apply tags in order to "Understand how it works", so, even if you build a drone to floate next to you and warn you of the area around, or a all mighty suit, a bodyguard, a guide dog, a white cane or whatever brings you joy, people will see a blind person, or a sighted person, a fat person, a tall person, a short...well, I guess it is clear as of now, right? People have opinions about everything, even if they don't know what are they talking about. My own opinion on this topic may sound like a bunch of crap to some and you're not going to take it into consideration, and it is perfectly fine. So why would having a public tag or image upon you could be that harmful?
Best regards, Haramir.

The true blind is the one who refuses to see.

2019-04-18 19:27:16 (edited by Zarvox 2019-04-18 19:29:07)

@24 post 7 describes how it can be negative. For blind people it isn't too negative, but look at what the public image of African Americans was like for them. For example people want to help us even when we don't need it, that's not negative. But no one wanted to help African Americans. They struggled to bring that image down. So blind people's image is not initially very harmful, it is more the person who makes it harmful, I agree with you on that. But some public images can be more initially damaging than others.