2019-04-18 02:15:04

Hey there everyone...

So while I was searching for documentation for JAWS support, I found this blog from over 10 years ago, pointing out very hostile terms of the JAWS free trial demo.

https://webaim.org/blog/jaws-license-no … -friendly/

In short, back in 2008, the trial period for JAWS was not to be used for testing software.

I know this is really old but I can't believe that Freedom Scientific thought they could get away with such a hostile developer license. I mean, I know that they absolutely would, but its just insane to me that greed would override basic common sense when handling accessibility here.

I get that they can farm more money out of the developer but this straight up gets in the way of accessibility.

Does JAWS seriously offer developer licenses? This is ridiculous. Are they still doing these kinds of practices? What other hostile practices has Freedom Scientific done? I know people complain a lot but seeing this makes me want to dig a little deeper.

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-18 02:49:18 (edited by Chris 2019-04-18 02:59:33)

As far as I know, they still do this. Other greedy and immoral activities include buying and merging with all their competition, bashing the great work NV Access does, charging people just to continue using newer versions of Firefox and Windows 10, finally releasing a long overdue annual program that doesn't include the professional features, etc. Oh, let's not forget that this wonderful annual program isn't available to other countries besides the United States. They do that and then someone from the company has the audacity to say "NVDA is just two guys in a garage"? Remind me why people continue to support a company with such vile business practices?

Honestly, I think JAWS needs a significant reduction in price, as well as a new team of people who actually care about the product and its users. From what I can tell, Freedom Scientific is primarily interested in milking as much money out of employers, schools, and government agencies as they possibly can, while convincing the same audience that JAWS is the best, and only product to use.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-04-18 02:57:23

@Chris
I've never heard/seen anything about Freedom Scientific bashing nV Access. This isn't surprising though since one of the last things I do is keep up to date on the latest with FS. Do you have any examples? Even if the screen reader I use now wasn't able to do everything I needed, FS's practices would make me more than hesitant to consider their products. (but I guess the real money is with institutions/organizations anyways instead of individuals)

Trying to free my mind before the end of the world.

2019-04-18 03:02:19

From what I've heard, someone at one of those conferences said something along the lines of "NVDA is just two guys in a garage", implying that they could fail any day. The opposite is true. There are probably 4 or 5 people working on JAWS, while NVDA is supported by hundreds of people from around the world.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-04-18 03:12:24

There's another [here] that asserts something similar from 2018. Checking the EULA says the use of 40 Minute Mode for accessibility testing is "not intended" for commercial use. Emphasis mine:

2.2.7 40-Minute Mode.

The 40 Minute Mode is provided as a limited time duration license mode of the Program, which can be used to get started during the installation process of the Program or for a limited demonstration of how the Program works. The Program in 40 Minute Mode has a Term limited to forty (40) minutes in duration. Every Program that does not have an active license to use the Program (including, for example, after expiration of the Term of the License) or an associated key will operate in this 40 Minute Mode. The 40 Minute Mode is not intended for commercial use other than use while waiting for an active license to use the Program or an associated key to arrive or be installed. The 40 Minute Mode also provides emergency access to a Computer for an End User when an active license to use the Program or a key is not present or associated with a Computer. If the Program reverts to the 40 Minute Mode, an active license (or key) is required to return the Program to full capability.

You might need to consult a lawyer on the symantics of whether this forbids accessibility testing or not. Or, you know, you could just use Tolk, Universal Speech, or any number of API's that support multiple screen readers. Also, their [Braille Display Terms] aren't much better.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2019-04-18 03:40:37

#4 To be fair, Freedom Scientific is a company that probably has more than 4 or 5 employees working on its products.

2019-04-18 13:25:23 (edited by daigonite 2019-04-18 13:39:03)

It's almost as if this is demonstrable proof that accessibility shouldn't be privatized or something.

Also, that's really shameful that in 2019 they still do not allow the trial period to be used for testing. I guess they really don't want blind people to be able to use computers after all. Bless NVDA for its existence.

From what I've heard, someone at one of those conferences said something along the lines of "NVDA is just two guys in a garage", implying that they could fail any day. The opposite is true. There are probably 4 or 5 people working on JAWS, while NVDA is supported by hundreds of people from around the world.

I personally think that open source is the future, the only thing that really holds it back is compensation - but people work on it because they enjoy the work (I've never done work for pay that I enjoyed but I could code for years on this accessibility stuff).

Also, that attitude will be their death knell. JAWS probably gets most of its support from the government and elderly people who just don't know any better. I personally think that open source, decentralized development and technology will out compete these corporations/companies over time as long as we encourage development across a community. (I say corporations because I think it extends beyond accessibility)

I kind of hope they burn

Also, I get that I can use other APIs but I want to build something that is open source, maybe the other APIs are but I'd rather just have my component be visible code without dealing with weird licensing. I just need to feed the screen reader strings so I don't understand why this has to be so hard, lol.

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-18 14:21:17

@7, LOL, corporations have already lost the decentralized vs. centralized battle. All you need do is look at cryptocurrencies like Zcash or Stellar XLM. And I fully agree with you.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-04-18 14:46:36 (edited by daigonite 2019-04-18 14:47:40)

Decentralization will ultimately overcome centralized organizations for so many reasons its not even funny, security and number of developers involved probably being the biggest one though.

I personally though think cryptocurrency is a waste of time, decentralizing other services that provide direct value to people (such as NVDA) is a much better use of resources. It is really funny though watching companies trying to make their own cryptocurrencies lmao

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-18 16:18:08

Fun fact: Jaws at this time does not forbid the use of forty-minute mode for testing. It simply mentions what it is intended for. We could argue about old licenses and whatnot, but the text bit from a few posts back really is only saying "this is what this is intended for". There is no legal snarling about how such-and-such is forbidden, so relax.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-04-18 16:49:55

Hmm, maybe the above poster was confused about the license terms. I thought it expired when I downloaded the demo.

Still, in my opinion, age isn't really an excuse to not get angry about this. Outside of blind people and developers, who would really know about JAWS's active attempts to try to put profit before accessibility?

Besides. The fact that they seriously talk down about NVDA demonstrates to me that they are more like any other company than an actual contributor towards accessibility. I understand that capital may be necessary for things like R&D but other commercial screen readers like windoweyes never pulled this crap insofar as I know. Why? Becayse JAWS is the market leader and they can.

Personally this is more about reclaiming accessibility from corporate/company control. There is a lot of reasons why I am extremely against corporate control of accessibility technology, but exploring FS's hostility towards their consumers would give an extremely solid argument (and expose to the general public how shitty they have been in the past)

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-18 19:17:23

GW Micro did do some talking down of Voiceover, but in a way they were absolutely right, and generally warning the customers. I know this because I can't remember a time where they ever talked down NVDA or other windows screenreaders (if that were true, their own software like GW Connect would've been just window eyes apps, probably.)
For those who don't remember, GW Micro said that Apple hardcoding a screenreader into the os was a grave disservice to the blind community. If you look deeper into that statement, it's not so much the screenreader itself that is a grave disservice (Voiceover itself was great at the time), but the fact it is embedded into the OS as a core service so completely, and gets so up close and personal with an OS that doesn't use any universally accepted accessibility api's. This means that no one would want to develop a gui screenreader for mac because it's next to impossible to try and communicate with their api's. So Voiceover is a definite only option. On IOS, it's not even maybe, it's a hard no. So, that being said, 6 years from that statement, in 2019 AD, Apple has essentially silently pulled the plug on Voiceover as an innovator. They spent just enough time on it to insure no one would develop a third party, and then they basked in the glory. They were at the top of the world, if only for an instant, because then everyone else (Google and MS) started catching up, to the point now where on IOS Voiceover isn't innovating anymore, and on the mac it's so far behind it's almost a joke. And there are no third party screenreader options for either, so the mac is essentially a dying platform. That, is what GW Micro predicted, and exactly what they thought would happen, happened.

2019-04-18 20:23:41

See, the fun thing I tend to notice here is that NVDA doesn't have to bash Jaws. It's got a whole user base who'll do that, using such witticisms as "flaws" and "freedom science fiction" and the like. When you have that, why waste time bashing your competitors?
the reality is simple. Companies do this. I don't think it's very nice, but it's very, very common. Just look at how many times you will hear something like, "so and so does this. The leading brand doesn't". Or whatever. These can even be outright lies sometimes, yet it still happens. It's not unique to FS, by any means.

That said, I agree with you regarding draconian license terms and pricing, and they're trying to work on that apparently. Why do you think their price is coming down.

That said, a thread was raised a couple of months back about how NVDA is starting to fray. Issues are coming up and not being fixed. The fact is that while it's open-source and does a ton right, it hasn't yet reached the market stability that Jaws has. It doesn't have professional R&D on its side. That doesn't mean it's bad or will fail (far from it) but it does mean that some of the issues NVDA has, Jaws doesn't have to worry about.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-04-18 20:34:30 (edited by daigonite 2019-04-18 22:29:52)

JAWS bashes it's competitors because it is directly advantageous for them to eliminate any possible competition. If NVDA is given the image of being gutter trash, people will be more willing to spend a ridiculous amount on JAWS. Especially those who don't know better.

Of course it's not unique to FS but do you really believe that we should be privatizing accessibility? FS demonstrates clearly how accessibility is particularly vulnerable.

One just has to look at GW Micro conducts itself in comparison... although personally I think that accessibility is just too vulnerable to the problems of markets. Blind people have fixed incomes and rely heavily on assistance which makes privatization pretty absurd imho. Not to mention that with a distributed development team, the possibility of finding new solutions skyrockets. Also, forks of noncommercial screenreaders could be produced for specific use cases. You can see a similar sort of development with Linux, although Linux has a much larger developer community and more time to develop.

What NVDA does that is significant isn't necessarily that it's free or a good competitor - it's that the project is able to be contributed to and a fork could be made. NVDA may fall out of favour but since it's code isn't proprietary and not written for profit, it can be layer re-worked into a better engine (again hopefully OS)

Finally regarding resources. I don't know much about how NVDA is funded outside of donations, but if government support stopped sucking off FS and instead helped NVDA it probably could be more competitive.

But I know that's a bit too socialist for Americans to bear. The government supporting something that undermines the free market in a very specific edge case? Eghad!

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-18 22:21:43

Hmm. The only thing that went down is the initial cost if you buy a home annual license. Other than that, the cost to keep that license active is actually more than it costs to keep an SMA active overall. It's just spread out. SMA costs are also higher now.

2019-04-18 23:23:12

And the professional version of Jaws, which most if not all people will eventually need, is not a direct upfront cost to you if you're lucky, but it remains expensive as ever for agencies and corporations. It's why people who request Jaws may not be getting their daisy player/gps to go along with their note taker, for example, because those are likely the same people to want a pearl despite KNFB, Google Lookout, and now VoiceDream Scanner being superior.
Rachel @Daigonite I think this topic is a good one to point out that GW Micro *conducted* itself a bit better, because they were acquired by VFO only to have Window Eyes killed off. There goes another option out the window.
Now, at the same time, Window Eyes (despite its shortcomings) had a lot more customer-focus from the start, allowing a very generous payment plan as an option, and also offering it for free for Office 2010 and up or Office365 customers, which is a package people are almost guaranteed to have with their computer or need at some point. Also taking into account that Window EYes came with no copy protection whatsoever. Your license key was embedded into the disk, but the disk wasn't hardware-ID'd (Teledisk for Jaws license diskettes anyone?) so you could carry it over to as many computers as you so choose as long as they were your own.
And with Jaws, we have a very buggy license manager (well, not exactly because now it's a complicated mess) they have the web portal now that you can actually use to deauthorize computers and manage licenses a lot easier than you used to, but the professional version doesn't come with that I believe and still uses ILM.

2019-04-18 23:57:44

So many good points in this thread.

Jayde wrote:

Fun fact: Jaws at this time does not forbid the use of forty-minute mode for testing. It simply mentions what it is intended for. We could argue about old licenses and whatnot, but the text bit from a few posts back really is only saying "this is what this is intended for". There is no legal snarling about how such-and-such is forbidden, so relax.

Did you not read the WebAIM article?

We were recently apprised that the licensing agreement for the trial version of JAWS states:

… these demonstration or evaluation licenses are not permitted for purposes of development and testing of JAWS scripts, applications, HTML coding, or other Web Based code.

In other words, you cannot use the demo version of JAWS for web evaluation. In fact, you can’t even use the demo version of JAWS to determine how well the full version could be used for accessibility evaluation.

I have called Freedom Scientific to verify this is still the case, but unless I am proven otherwise, it is stated quite clearly that the JAWS  40-Minute Mode is not meant for accessibility testing.

Jayde wrote:

See, the fun thing I tend to notice here is that NVDA doesn't have to bash Jaws. It's got a whole user base who'll do that, using such witticisms as "flaws" and "freedom science fiction" and the like. When you have that, why waste time bashing your competitors?

This I agree with. People need to stop wasting their time using school-yard taunts in the mistaken belief that  it will somehow harm Freedom Scientific. They will be much more likely to listen to your criticisms if you are eloquent and willing to intelligently have a conversation without resorting to calling names.

Jayde wrote:

That said, a thread was raised a couple of months back about how NVDA is starting to fray. Issues are coming up and not being fixed. The fact is that while it's open-source and does a ton right, it hasn't yet reached the market stability that Jaws has. It doesn't have professional R&D on its side. That doesn't mean it's bad or will fail (far from it) but it does mean that some of the issues NVDA has, Jaws doesn't have to worry about.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. NVDA is backed by developers, translators, testers, and a community that is world-wide. Every application has its advantages and shortcomings, but having this community behind NVDA is a massive advantage. As for the argument that NVDA is regressing, I've not seen this at all. It's moving full-steam ahead.

The Beast continued its studies with renewed Focus, building great Reference works and contemplating new Realities. The Beast brought forth its followers and acolytes to create a renewed smaller form of itself and, through Mischievous means, sent it out across the world.
from The Book of Mozilla, 6:27

2019-04-19 14:38:47

Thanks for the clarification, Carver.

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-19 17:50:17

Lots of agreement with @daigonite and @Ethin. Open source is the future, and the success of various projects built on a community of contributors is most of the evidence that you need. A lot of the advantages of decentralization have already been brought up. What happens to JAWS post Freedom Scientific? It's already been explained that in the case that development for NVDA stops, it wouldn't be hard at all for it to be reworked, molded, and improved by interested developers who want to keep the project moving forward with little fuss. There's also the matter of security. Open source projects can be easily reviewed. I'm a lot more willing to put my faith into a project with many hands directly at work from all over the world. The dialog between contributors and end users is a lot more powerful because they can often be one and the same.

Trying to free my mind before the end of the world.

2019-04-19 19:04:55

It needs to be said here that I'm actually generally in favour of such things. I do not want either NVDA or Jaws to die, as like it or not, both are great screenreaders in their own right, with varying strengths and weaknesses. I am not in favour of Jaws's overall pricing structure and think it needs to be made more competitive if it's going to continue going forward. I won't drop that screenreader for that reason, since I prefer it to some extent, but I also won't deny its issues either. I'm not happy when companies get grabby.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-04-20 06:49:35

I don't think anyone is against diversity of screen readers but rather the business practices of Freedom Scientific as an organization...

you like those kinds of gays because they're gays made for straights

2019-04-20 14:57:44

Update:

I have heard absolutely nothing from Freedom Scientific, so am assuming the WebAIM article is still accurate. I will, however, still pursue this on my end.

The Beast continued its studies with renewed Focus, building great Reference works and contemplating new Realities. The Beast brought forth its followers and acolytes to create a renewed smaller form of itself and, through Mischievous means, sent it out across the world.
from The Book of Mozilla, 6:27