2019-03-09 15:19:21

The Url  for the screen reader version is https://trimpscreenreader.netlify.com/

and that one definitely works, its open in another window right now big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-10 06:38:59

@Dark, I already explained in a previous post why you can't just navigate by heading levels with jaws. I do navigate with H, but it's not that it bounces while I do that, actually it goes pretty well, it's just that the "end of log" title doesn't seem to exist for jaws. I can only see that heading with NVDA. What seems to bounce my focus is the log updating itself, though I admit it's kind of weird.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-10 09:13:02

What a freaking awesome gem of a dev!


Not only did he download a screen reader and test the game for him self, but he also took the time to read the documentation and get good with it (faster than allot of blind people might I add) to the point that he understood exactly what could help accessibility wise in the context of all those commands most intermediate level screen reader users know.
That is, extremely rare. Yes, we've had a few devs take the time to try a screen reader, and it's always awesome, and plenty have put in the hard work to help make their game's better for this small community, which is always appreciated, but I don't know of any other sighted developer who picked up the more complex parts so quickly, or at all for that matter.


I also very much appreciate how your giving progress updates, and have an ongoing commitment and milestones for accessibility greensatellite, you have good project management skills and I can tell how much you care.


You stand out as a shining example of what all audio game devs, sighted or blind, should strive to be sir, and I say that with no exaggeration what so ever.


I would also just like to mention how much I appreciate Dark, Origine, and Dragonlee for giving such consistent and great feedback, I've been reading through this thread and giving thumbs up left and right.

This... -- Is CNN'.
Well Ted, it sure looks like there's been uh, quite a bit of violence around here
"aaoh, that violence was terrible'!"
Yeah it was, pretty bad.

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2019-03-10 19:15:43

first, wow I can't believe the dev is actually testing things on a screen reader, that's great! I'm not aware anyones really done that before, but they might've. I haven't played the game yet but it looks neat and I certainly plan too as things come out could either the first page be updated with a link I suppose the dev could just make it the signature so it's at the end of every post or something either way, thank you for your hard work, and I'll give the game a shot! also, welcome to the community

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2019-03-10 21:05:37 (edited by Dark 2019-03-10 21:18:17)

Hmmm Origine that is very weird. if I had a version of Supernova that would work with Chrome I'd test to see how trimps works with that.

I don't really get the jaws heading thing, that seems a little strange to me, and would create issues in other situations I've  seen where higher level headings are below lower level ones, EG the party screen in puppet nightmares.
One thing I do wonder, is Trimps is one of the few occasions I've seen a heading page element used with no text in it. Does Jaws play okay with other parts of the  page which use this mechanic, such as going between level 4 headings for Trimp and enemy stats?

@Defender,  Agreed,  I've worked with a lot of devs over the years, but the work going into the screen reader version of Trimps is quite astounding.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-10 22:23:28

@Dark, the damage titles are special biscuits. When I scan the page from top to bottom, I get to just before where the damage is written, jaws says "heading level 4", but doesn't read any heading text. Then, when I press down again, I get to read the damage, say "300-40.3k". But I cannot jump to that heading nor is it listed in the heading list view of jaws. Again, the "End of log" title is completely absent when using jaws, it's nowhere to be found.

When I press insert + F6 which lists all headings on the page, I see, in order:
Food
Wood
Metal
Science
Trimps
Build
Buildings
Jobs
Upgrades
Equipment
0 / 329k (this is my trimps' health)
392k / 392k (this is my ennemy's health)
Zone 13

For the heading thing, it's hard to explain, perhaps you would understand better with the JAWS demo, but I can assure you that if I'm on Food heading, the only number key I can press that would lead me to another heading is 1, which would bring me to wood, because the other headings are not under the Food heading 1 node.

To summarize the heading moving behaviour, pressing a number key to move to a heading will work when:
1. If that key is higher or equal level to current heading level, focus will move to next heading of that key value.
2. If that key is strictly lower than the current heading level focus will move to next heading with that level if and only if that heading is a direct child of current heading.

Note: I know it can be confusing, but higher here means that the heading level is lower, thus h1 is higher than h2. I chose this convention, because the heading structure is really represented by a tree for jaws and h1 is always gonna be higher in the tree.

By direct child of current node, I mean that if you were to build a tree representing headings of the page, then direct child would be all nodes immediately under current node. To be clear, here are two examples:

h1: Countries
h2: Canada
h3: Quebec
h2: United Kingdom

In that example, direct children of Countries would be Canada and United Kinngdom. This means that if my focus is on Countries, pressing 3 will not bring me to Quebec. You might think this is silly, but in standard web pages, it works pretty nicely, it ensures you stay in the same section. However, you can trick the tree building engine with incoherent layouts, imagine that second example just for fun:

h1: Countries
h4: Canada
h3: United Kingdom
h2: Brazil

In that particular example, the direct children of Countries are Canada, United Kingdom and Brazil, meaning I can jump from countries to all 3 countries in that list by pressing the corresponding number key. This is just because the tree creation was tricked, because a higher heading cannot be a child of a lower heading. In addition, I can jump from any heading to any heading with number keys, because from any heading except Countries, you fall in condition 1 above, not condition 2.

Ok, I hope it was clear enough. I rewrote that post like 3 times, makes me practice my popularization not sure about the translation of that word.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-10 22:40:28

@Origine, I wonder if labelling the headings for end of log and the two level 4 damage headings would work? I'll admit trimps is the only time I've seen blank headings used as markers, and it works fine with NvdA but obviously doesn't with Jaws.

i'm tempted to try with Supernova, accept that the version of Supernova I have won't work with Chrome and I doubt Trimps would work correctly with internet explorer either.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 00:03:56

This is such an amazing game that my planned productive weekend was ruined.  I was supposed to clean my apartment and get lots of homework done, instead, I was too busy watching imaginary monsters destroy a poor little planet's ecosystems.  Whatever shall I do?
Anyway, I really appreciate the effort that has been taken to make this game accessible, and don't really have any interface-based complaints or suggestions excluding one.  Would it be possible to add a sound to notify you when resources are maxed?  I always get distracted from the game, then return to see everything maxed out and notice my trimps are just sitting around wasting time.
One more thing, do you have a Patreon?
Anyway, thanks, and keep up the amazing work!

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2019-03-11 03:30:13

Welcome to the adictive world of trimps big_smile.

If sfx were featured in the game, there are lots of interesting ways they could be used, EG sounds for when buildings were complete, when you finish a zone, combat, loot  etc.

I do think though there needs to be a way of  seeing how long until your storehouses are full, so that you can plan things out and  the right stores when you can't be playing the game constantly.

I also suspect though, that a lot of the timer based activities  the like will be easier when there is a quicker way to look at the mouseover information.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 04:13:13

yeah.  I also occasionally have issues when I want to buy a bunch of 1 item and NVDA's focus bounces around a little.  Like earlier I wanted to buy like 3 or 4 hotels, but I accidentally hit the mansion button once and Poof! no more hotels.

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2019-03-11 04:33:43

try going into browse mode settings in NVdA and unchecking the "use screen layout when supported" that seems to make the menus in Trimps much more logical.
Also I would recommend always using b or shift for buttons rather than arrows.

Oh, and btw as regards your previous question about  I don't know if there is a patrion, but if you go to statistics, and then to "more about trimps" you can find a paypal link to donate.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 04:54:16

yeah.  I never use the arrow keys when navigating, unless I'm checking what's on the map.
I always use b and shift b to move through the list of buildings.  Sometimes though, especially when a lot of text is changing, NVDA likes jumping around a bit and it's really annoying.  It's not a Trimps specific issue though.  It's just NVDA being NVDA.

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2019-03-11 05:46:51

Funny I've not experienced any jumping over here. Are you using firefox or chrome?
I don't know if it plays the same way with firefox as it does with chrome.

Oh, and make sure your on full screen with f11, since for some reason the mouseovers don't work properly otherwise.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 07:29:43

I'm using Chrome and am using full-screen.  The issue isn't very consistent.  It tends to come and go based on the day, I guess.
I usually avoid these incremental games because I hate the idea of having to restart to advance.  I get attached to my big numbers and the idea of restarting, even if there are significant bonuses, makes me want to stop playing.  Yet, I'm still addicted to this game!
I guess there is just so much content that I'm willing to deal with that to experience it all.
I'm hoping spires will be pretty accessible by the time I get to that point, because they sound incredible.

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2019-03-11 11:20:02

I second that SFX would be a huge bonus for me as an audiogamer.

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2019-03-11 16:53:03

@Aaron spires sound awesome and I've been chatting to green satellite about accessibility for them, though as you need to get to zone  200 before spires are an issue we probably have time to work out the access kinks big_smile.

For me, I actually always found most incremental games tended to get to a point where the numbers were increasing, but the actual input of the player or need to engage with new content  not really enough to hold my interest.

its actually an odd balance to get right. Space company requires a hole bunch of time and trouble for your ascension, then gives you very little in return (you need to ascend once just  even unlock the possibility of ascension  then ascend again with no extra help to earn any of them).

then on the other side of the coin we have Shark's game, where ascension gets easier and easier, and apparently can get to the point where you can ascend in less than half an hour. Sharks game does at least have different content for each ascension though, so it takes five or six until you've seen everything.

Trimps however does the interesting mechanical step of making ascention a comparatively easy matter, but requiring the bonuses from multiple ascensions to progress and get further, thus making the game a bit like swinging a pendulum, where you need to go  back to go even further forward, and that's before you get to things like challenges which change up the gameplay, and the fact that the bare bones gameplay itself requires a lot of fixing and checking in the first place to keep running.

I don't know why but in trimps the numbers and the return for  investment just works out really well, that aside from the fact that you can be as active or passive in playing the game as you wish and still make progress to some extent.

I'm personally really looking forward to getting to zone 60, though as 38 is the furthest I've got so far I might have to wait a bit, especially since completing the size challenge has left me with fewer trimps than I should have and I'm going to have to go and farm some food from a side map to get my workers up to strength so I can afford all those upgrades.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 18:13:56

You can be as active or as passive as you want?
could have fooled me!  I'd like to be really passive on this game, but I've been looking at the game every 5 minutes!  I can't help it!

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2019-03-11 18:28:57

Lol, yeah. Well when I said passive I was more referring to how much time you spend on submaps waiting for your resources to increase rather than storming through the main area making continual upgrades.

Actually I've been forced to slow down a  since doing the size challenge didn't leave me with enough trimps to continue, so I had to farm food a bit to increase my work force to the point that upgrades became possible to buy, and I might need to be doing a  more of that soon enough too, though I do intend to get at least to zone 40 this time  particularly since I got new perks so hopefully the next run should be easier.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-11 23:53:57 (edited by greensatellite 2019-03-11 23:58:58)

Hi all! I just wanted to pop in and give another quick update!

The past week has been really busy for me, but yesterday I finally got my 4.11.0 content patch mostly finished and on a server for testing! I expect this week to be fairly busy as well while I run around like my hair is on fire fixing bugs and rebalancing things in the new patch, but I should have it done and on the live server by this weekend.

Once that happens, the ScreenReader page on GitHub should be up and working, and I'll finally be able to dig more deeply into some of the bigger fixes I want to make, such as tooltips.

I really appreciate everyone's patience while I finish up my prior Trimps commitments, and I'm still very much looking forward to digging back in to accessibility! And thank you all so much for all of the kind words, I'm absolutely blown away by the reception here. You guys are awesome and it makes me so happy to be able to extend my game to such a great group of people!

@Origine I'll have to download JAWS and take a look at why it's not seeing the End of Log, Trimp Attack or Enemy Attack headings. Those 3 particular headings actually have no content in them, and just have a title attribute that says what they are. I tested on NVDA and it seemed to pick up these elements fine as navigation tools, but my best guess is that JAWS is ignoring these blank headings and their title attribute some reason.

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2019-03-12 00:41:55

@greensatellite congrats on getting the new version done and out of the  I'd like to see the changelog just for interest's sake.

Don't worry about needing to fix other things, while I won't deny some fixes for tooltips etc would be nice, what you've already done in a really short time is fantastic.
Some other developers I've discussed accessibility with took literally months to make changes, or promised changes and then never made them at all. A few even straight out said that adding access to their games was too much work, even when the games were (as in the case of Trimps), partly accessible to begin with and just needing some tweaking.

Also as defender said,  there aren't many developers who go and download screen reading programs just to try their own games out.

As for me, I'm still really enjoying the game, even if at the moment following the size challenge I think I'm still playing catch up with trimp numbers vs costs of upgrades,  still, I intend to get at least to zone 40 this time around.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-12 00:59:20

Dark wrote:

I'd like to see the changelog just for interest's sake.

Here's a link to the 4.11.0 reddit test server thread with explanations of some of the new content: https://www.reddit.com/r/Trimps/comment … st_server/

And a link to the 4.11.0 test server's patch notes: https://trimpstesting411.netlify.com/updates.html

Unfortunately there's not much in there that affects the early game, but it's more content for you to discover later! Also you should be getting very close to Heirlooms, which have been improved quite a bit on 4.11.0!

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2019-03-12 02:20:21 (edited by Dark 2019-03-12 03:17:47)

Hi.

Interesting stuff, its amazing that a lot of those mechanics reflect things I've never heard of, though I look forward to finding out.
If indeed heirlooms start being a thing after five portals, i should hopefully be running into them next time around, though of course I need to get past level 40 first and I've still got 7 zones to go. At least I should be picking up the 1000 helium achievement pretty soon.

Edit: okay, a thought just occurred to me. At the moment the only actual links on the page is the "1" of the custom quantity option. It'd be handy if other quantities were links. Not so much at the start but when you suddenly have several hundred workers to assign, it'd be helpful to be able to switch units quickly without having to hunt clickable buttons.

Again, only a miner thing, but perhaps something to consider, particularly since I imagine the numbers of trimps you need to assign can probably get pretty crazy given how bloody huge the game is.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

Thumbs up +1

2019-03-12 04:17:23

With jaws, the quantity modifiers are not buttons and I never really managed to use them unfortunately. However, I can use the custom one because when I click the link, it pops up a box and I can enter the quantity. It's pretty slow to switch modifier though.

Also, there is an unlabeled button just to the right of "Combat". What is this button for? I'm a bit scared to press it not knowing what it will do. I know combat is to filter out or not combat logs, so is that unlabeled button to the right of it is another filter? I hope it's not a increase your production by 1000% switch tongue.

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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2019-03-12 04:33:17

The quantity modifiers aren't buttons, they're clickable hotspots on the page, clicking  the word itself should change the respective quantity, though I personally always click back on that "1" link so that I don't buy 100 huts by mistake big_smile.

This is however why it'd be nice if they were links or other interactable controls.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-03-12 04:57:34

Yeah they are clickable elements for me, but it doesn't work when I try to click them. I use the custom link instead, any idea for the button next to Combat?

Reading is one form of escape. Running for your life is another. ― Lemony Snicket

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