2019-02-26 00:05:02

The reason that there aren't any good audio games hasn't got anything to do with the language used. It has everything to do with the fact that there just aren't that many experienced developers working on them. There's a lot of people with pie in the sky ideas but not that many who have the luxury to devote there time to really making one. After all, no one will make a living on making audio games. There just aren't enough blind people who will pay for them.


Also there seem to be a lot of lone wolves out there (me included) who try to do stuff on their own because they don't know how to network, aren't use to it, or whatever. Big games take teams. Of course there are always going to be exceptions like BK3 and a handful of others that could be considered "big projects," but that's the exception, not the rule.


As for learning programming, no matter what code base you are using there are concepts that are universal: loops, objects, conditionals, level design, etc. It doesn't matter where you learn those concepts. The syntax changes, but not the ideas.


I'd rather someone spend time learning those core concepts than wasting their time trying to just get a language running. I don't use BGT. I used C++ for a long time and now I'm switching to Python for my own reasons. But I don't care what recipe or oven someone uses. I only care if they can bake the cake.

If you're wrong, you're wrong.
You can follow me on twitter @s_luttrell and an almost never used Facebook account at skluttrell.

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2019-02-26 01:12:02

I don't see a lot of cooks in the kitchen though, or to further the analogy, a chaos of open oven doors, malformed batters, burnt cake, etc. The situation doesn't look good. Here's the thing though, Python will stop you cold, in other words, you can't be lazy and grab a BGT includes pack and just rip stuff from here, from there, and cobble a shoddy framework together, modify a few values and call it a game. You have to work for it, you have to put the time and research into how to work with a virtual environment, how to install packages, and you actually have to build your own thing. This puts a stop to 90% of the ridiculous things we seem to be flooded with right now, because you just can't do it in Python, not with the same level of ease. If a person took the time to learn how to work with Python and then came up with something, that thing would have a higher likelihood of being good because they literally had to put effort into it. So python weeds out the lazy people.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-26 03:44:39

And discourages the inexperienced.

If you're wrong, you're wrong.
You can follow me on twitter @s_luttrell and an almost never used Facebook account at skluttrell.

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2019-02-26 04:06:58

That's kind of the point, make it too easy, and the content produced is no good at all. Make them put in some effort to learn the stuff, and they do a better job because they'd have quit otherwise.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-26 05:33:05

@28, by discouraging the inexperienced you are filtering out those who won't take the time and effort into making good audio games. If we weed those out, we'll get high quality audio games, and good audio game developers as a result because they'll know what their actually doing.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-26 06:15:07

precisely.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-26 06:26:07 (edited by Xoren 2019-02-26 21:49:19)

Re: Post 30 (Edited since I accidentally wrote 28 earlier, and that's clearly the wrong post. Apologies to SKLuttrell.).
So... You want to get rid of inexperienced developers who are learning the craft, thereby keeping people from ever learning, and only the experts can stick around? I think you'll find this narrow-minded view slightly self-destructive. I'm assuming that you were just born an expert in your programming language of choice, then, not ever having to learn the language's ins and outs? I salute your elitism.

Kai

This site's drama(s) needs major popcorn!

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2019-02-26 08:57:27

I didn't read 28 that way at all. I read it as a rebuttal to my post previous to that, suggesting that forcing python or other languages on people is a discouragement to the inexperienced. Which I can agree with, my viewpoint is though, if you're unwilling to stick it out through the tough times, then how will you make games. You see all these downright crappy games coming out all over the place, and they're all BGT. Why are they all BGT? Because there is so much source code out there and people just take it and run. The matter of BGT versus any other language is purely subjective, but I think even the "let's let people choose their own language" people can agree that you can't code a game with public classes and stolen sounds and modifying a few variables. I mean from a player's point of view, I could care less about what language it is coded in, if it works, and is fun, I'll play it, if it is a sold product, I'll buy it. Liam made games with BGT, and I played them. But I don't want to put exclusions in my system just to play BGT games.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-26 11:09:28

IDK, my java games are exactly as crappy as the BGT ports. Of course, they broke Javasound, so it's not like I can port them back (and reintroduce the Java-born problems).
Someone who charges $5-20 to get people to the point where audio and redist work for anything other than BGT in under two hours would probably make, like, half a mint. Those are the main things that BGT does better than anything else (or at least, until the antivirus thing came along), that and maybe speech. I don't need training in how to code in these other languages; I need a freakin' map to getting sound to play and my programs to work on devices other than the one I created them on. Google has been insufficient to resolve this.

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

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2019-02-26 11:18:15

I need both, but yeah especially the sound.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-26 14:39:59

that's exactly, one of  the Reasons why i don't use python

2019-02-26 17:35:58

I am currently making a game in Python.
Since it just uses the terminal to output text and it's accessible, I don't need sound hahahahaha!
I'm sometimes forgetting indentation since I'm used to BGT, but that also helped me to get used to some things, I can already make classes which is not very hard lol.


I also don't need speech, but does anyone wanna give me a sound library that *actually* works, instead of making clicking noises like pygame did.

You can get my Tactical Battle scripts here, with a documentation included. They allow various things that are not normally possible in the game.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzsmqv2pgqvu1 … h.zip?dl=1
If you have questions about my scripts, you can e mail me. You can also modify them as much as you want.

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2019-02-26 18:35:52

Pygame is picky with regards to when and how you init the mixer. If you call pygame.init, you need to call pygame.mixer.pre_init (with the parameters fitting your sounds), but if you don't call pygame.init, you should call pygame.mixer.init. ... I think. It's been like 5 years since I've had to do it, iirc.

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

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2019-02-26 20:23:37

@32, nice way of completely (and deliberately, I think) misinterpreting my post. We don't weed out the newbies/inexperienced to keep only experts. We weed out those people who are unwilling to take the time to actually learn Python or another programming language. We weed out those who are unwilling to try things that seem hard to generate excellent outcomes. Please stop twisting my words for your own interpretation of reality.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-26 21:13:24

How about we don't "weed out" anybody and instead learn that you don't have to answer to every single topic? You don't like BGT, very simple. Ignore the topic and let somebody who likes it help a newbie. If there are no such people, even better, the newbie is much more likely to move on when they cannot get help because of the language.

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2019-02-26 21:38:19 (edited by Xoren 2019-02-26 21:45:33)

Re: Post 39.
If I did misinterpret your post, it's only because I was trying to follow your own example as you kept completely missing the point of my arguments on this subject earlier. I hope I made you proud, sensei.

However, I'm not sure how the following post can be interpreted differently?

@28, by discouraging the inexperienced you are filtering out those who won't take the time and effort into making good audio games. If we weed those out, we'll get high quality audio games, and good audio game developers as a result because they'll know what their actually doing.

Kai

This site's drama(s) needs major popcorn!

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2019-02-26 23:53:05

Isn't that what we want? I know I do. I'm tired of the crap out there, let's see someone put in some actual effort.

WThis signature was updated from my iPhone.

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2019-02-27 02:08:32

@41, again, what Ironcross32 and I have been trying to tell you is still perfectly acceptable. Most clones and crap these days have been (partially) because of BGT and its simplicity. Someone can just get the source code of these games and run with it. The idea of BGT is a good one, but it tends to encourage the exact behavioral patterns we have seen. The simplicity gives people who don't know how to actually develop good quality games the idea that they can just sit down and instantly start coding a game and the engine will do all the hand-holding. Python does not give such an experience. Python will hold your hand, to an extent, but will certainly let go if you mess up. It is forgiving, to a degree, but isn't as forgiving as BGT is. Python will push you to make good applications, and good products. It will encourage you to make cross-platform apps. It will (pretty much) make you put in all the effort you can to make your game, app, or whatever, the best it can be. C++ is far less forgiving than Python is. But I don't want to push people into learning that purely because its a far more complex beast than Python is, and it has many misconceptions that people need to get over before they can start down that road. But that's a topic for another day.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-03 08:46:03

The best thing that has happened to me is Python. Never thought I'd say that, but I'm so glad to have left BGT behind.
For those who want to use it, have fun.

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my space bar. Prepare to die!

http://l-works.net

2019-03-03 10:59:04

Hi, python is by far the best language for me out there. i can't make great apps yet, but i am on my way. every day i am learning some thing new with python. the indentation was bad for me at first to get use to, but once you get the hang of it, braces will deffenetly not be for you.
you can even choose if you want to make use of tabs or spaces for indenting. what do you have in c# or c++ for example?
I know you will also need to make use of indentation, but that is not reelly a requirement.

best regards
never give up on what ever you are doing.

2019-03-03 13:18:34

I believe C-based languages use braces. Indenting is a great habit to get in to regardless of language though.

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my space bar. Prepare to die!

http://l-works.net

2019-03-03 17:59:17

Blind people seem irrationally terrified of things like braces and mice. ... crap why didn't someone pull an "Eek! A mouse!" when Swamp was new? ... OK, I guess because that'd've been mean.
Well, I'm better than that. I'm irrationally afraid of people. Such a better reason to fail, wouldn't you agree?
... Wait...
(But so far as gamedev is concerned, I feel I should reiterate that people make video games without ever learning how to program if they're sighted. They just install Unity and a model/animation editor, then create a Kickstarter, then take a year to release 15 minutes of a survival horror game that the internet immediately falls in love with. ... I'm not bitter; I'd say I'm more sour, but then I'd have to dissect all the implications of that, and ain't nobody got time for that.)

Some of my games
Keep up to date by following @Jeqofire on twitter!
Ear Ninja?

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