2019-02-12 17:14:51

FYI, I do think they said something about the fact they are going to carry on anyway, so let's say their funding was wildly successful anyway , I would think the project would've gone on no problem. I think they kept wanting to find local voice actor because they were hesitant to deal with people with different audio setups. But that, ironically, is exactly one of the things you should be looking for in an audition process. For example, don't even try if you have just an iPhone or your computer as a microphone, maybe list a recommend one (I personally use the Yeti with enough effort to get it on the right gain level for my voice given the situation.) But it is nevertheless possible to hire non-local voice actors for the project from all parts of the community, and just weed out the ones with less than stellar setups.

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2019-02-12 20:00:32

Hi,
I think you all Forget that there is a Major difference betweén mentioning blindness in a game (which would be no Problem for me) and outright stereotyping (which is not tolerable).
What the People who gave harsh critics were probabbly offended by was not the mentioning of blindness, but the extreme stereotyping.
I am not saying that the way some critics were made was the right way.
And to the mytruesound Team: If the second Episode is written already, why don't you release it? (The fortune favors the bold or however that saying goes.)
And to SLJ: Dude, after that logic, if someone cooked something that tasted awful, but I myself couldn't cook, I couldn't tell the Person who cooked the meal because I would have to make it better.
What I hope is that we all can learn from this and that we won't scare off devs in the future.

Greetings and happy gaming, Julian
BTW, give me a thumbs up if you like my Posts!

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2019-02-12 20:42:08

Julian, I'd steer clear of *intolerable* as the script-writer has indicated that no harm was intended, as was said by the audio engineer. He was the only blind person the scriptwriter had contacted, i.e he didn't research into it enough, so it is just a simple mistake. Don't worry about it, it won't happen again. No need to bring up the "unresolved grievance." And I think episode two is not released because of it doesn't have voice acting or sounds, though they can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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2019-02-12 20:50:02

Juliantheaudiogamer wrote:

Hi,
(...)  If the second Episode is written already, why don't you release it? (The fortune favors the bold or however that saying goes.)
(...).

there is a long way between the Script until the final game. A veeery long one, and that is what we try to solve now, so the production is efficient and well done. Public has demanded better final product, and we heard it wink

give us some time. We will be back. The best is yet to come

mytruesound.com - we hear the difference

2019-02-12 20:52:26

jack wrote:

Well, in fairness, the game actually had to fold also due to the financial burden )they said what they were hoping to create was getting expensive, and the high number of downloads seemed like the organization they got funding from was expecting way too much.) I think this was 10000 downloads to prove there's a market. 10000 downloads in the first few days of the project, I don't think that's very realistic personally. Even with several different online communities, you encounter many of the same people. You'd have to have some sort of mainstream coverage before you got close to 1000 downloads. It got over a thousand, which isn't bad for an initial debut, and I would say be proud of that despite what some bottom-line interested funding organization may think (AVEC is probably not that, but they seem pretty unreasonable when it comes to audiogames.)

AVEK was only demanding that we would do the demo, which we decided to publish, and that the script will be similar to the original. They did not demand numbers of downloads. This was my personal goal to proof investors about the size and possibilities of the market.

mytruesound.com - we hear the difference

2019-02-12 23:58:36 (edited by jack 2019-02-13 06:51:54)

I think that's a great goal to strive for, but I think that may be a bit much given the size of our community. However, 1400 downloads in 10 days is definitely something to be proud of. There were a lot of critics, but then a lot of people actually curious and wanting to try the game. So in short, 10000 downloads is a great longterm goal, but for what it's worth, congrats on 1400.

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2019-02-13 09:23:26

Juliantheaudiogamer wrote:

And to SLJ: Dude, after that logic, if someone cooked something that tasted awful, but I myself couldn't cook, I couldn't tell the Person who cooked the meal because I would have to make it better.

Exactly, that's my point. Unless you are paying for something you have guaranteed is in good quality. Many people are just sitting there complaining the hell out of everything, without trying to make a difference themself. That also goes for food. Many people are criticising so many things, without being able to make it better themself. They are even doing that with products they get for free. You get what you pay for...

Best regards SLJ.
If you like the post, then please give it a thumps up.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Happy gaming... :D

2019-02-13 19:03:39

Personally, I didn't see any extremely negative criticism  written anywhere about the game. Yes, people harped on about the subpar sound quality and things a lot more then they likely should have, but no one was particularly mean about it. And, as for the face touching thing, I had to stop playing the game because I just couldn't get past my frustration, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one, making it a game breaking issue for many people, one, mind you, that could have been fixed by deleting 30 seconds of dialogue without impacting the story of the rest of the game whatsoever.
I really don't know what to say here, other than if you hype up a game as much as this one was hyped, and it doesn't live up to expectations, people will be disappointed. this is the honest truth. if you can't deal with it, maybe you're not cut out to make projects for public consumption. the real world isn't full of rainbows. If this drives people away from making games, then so be it. I would rather have one good game than 500 terrible ones.
This game had potential, given a little work, even just as an audio drama blind legend esk game. personally, just deleting those 30 seconds of dialogue would have gotten it an okay from me, till I saw the future episodes. I'd not be surprised if many people agree with me on this point.
As to people going on about it being like turning down a free meal. If I'm given a free meal, and it gives me food poisoning, I'm probably going to tell my friends not to accept meals from the same person/place.
TLDR: a thick skin is required to make anything for any community, and really nothing rood/insulting etc was thrown at these devs. they folded because of people's honest feedback.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
Plato

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2019-02-13 22:35:22

i have to agree with the last poster here i think it has folded because they wanted the feedback to be positive and not at all negative.

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2019-02-14 01:10:30 (edited by jack 2019-02-14 01:12:04)

Come on, 33 and 34. Two things.
1. Financial reasons also contributed to this project being put on hiatus.
2. This is precisely the problem. You say people are harping on it more than they should've, yet you are still! harping about it. Do I have to remind you that the game was required to stick to the script for contractual reasons. I am quite sure that removing 30 seconds of dialogue, or replacing it, is exactly what the developers would've wanted to do. They have said time and again they don't like the script turnout and would change it, and yet you folks are telling them something they already know. Seriously, haters gonna hate I suppose.
It's true that being a developer requires a thick skin. It's true that you kind of have to keep on trucking regardless of what people say if they get butthurt. But a developer cannot mute their initial thread out, because then they could be missing some crucial feedback that could've got posted. So, while it's true a developer should try and keep going regardless of what people say, this does not give anyone the right to be dickish towards the developer. Remember that this is the primary reason people like Ian Hamilton have suggested mainstream developers steer clear of this forum, precisely because! of some folks in this community just not hearing when enough is enough. Yes, i completely get that a developer should take constructive criticism, that's completely valid. Yes, I understand that destructive criticism will happen at some point (there's always one.) But if people see that the same thing has been posted over and over, then it's going to get annoying because amid some genuine feedback posts, you are reading the same damn thing again and again. I have to give it to those who have taken the time to reflect on what their actions may have caused a developer to do, but this is not a thread to continue this imaginary unresolved grievance some people may have with this game.
Also:

Rashad wrote:

I would rather have one good game than 500 terrible ones.

I know this is figurative, but hold it right there. In the mainstream world, we can afford to wait around for the next big game amidst dozens of others. We should know damn well that that isn't the same with audio games; every audio game released has an impact.
Also, can I point out that some blind people act so spoiled when it comes to misconceptions? Don't get me wrong I'm not discounting the fact that there is legitimate discrimination going on against blind people and that is to be condemned, but when people are fighting against actual racial/other slurs that are much more harmful and damnable words being used, blindness misconceptions are merely harmless. Do we need to educate? Certainly, but that's just it, educate and not shove blindness into everyone's face. This is precisely why parts of the nfb get a bad rap, precisely because of the general whiny attitude. If we could take the time and realize that some people just don't get it because of the media's portrayal of blind people and their general limited interaction with blind people, and aren't trying to knowingly cause any harm, then we would take the time to educate them more rather than slam them.
You complain about being judged yet you judge others like no one's business. Ok, fine, then give me a list of blind people *insert person here* has interacted with. Come on, you've been keeping tabs on them, you must be, or else...can't do it huh? I thought so. Remember, the script-writer has said time and again he had only had interaction with one blind person, the sound engineer. Could he have done more research? Absolutely. Could this community have been a source or research, even after the fact? Hell yeah! But were most of it? Hell no! And that's what people need to think about.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2019-02-14 01:24:52 (edited by jack 2019-02-14 01:25:25)

I'm going to take something that was said in a topic about Breakerbox. Most games are one-man bands. This project is not, but it's still a small company. There is no soulless bottom-line-driven corporation behind this project, so no need for a pr nightmare. A developer may remain professional and stay cool when reacting to the negative comments, since after all it can and will happen inevitably. However, this went beyond negative comments to downright annoying shitstorm. No, the developer was not looking for positive feedback and positive feedback alone. The developer was looking for honest feedback, and honest feedback is not repeating the same thing over and over again when the developer has already clearly acknowledged it. Only reason I'm harping on my case is so that this shit doesn't happen again.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2019-02-14 16:01:14

Again, no one has called them names, or told them they were useless, or that their game is moronic, or other such noncess. we'd be having a different conversation if that was the case. People raised criticisms, that is all. If only one or two people bring up an issue, it can be assumed that only they are facing that issue. if 50 people bring up an issue, you know that it's actually a big deal, so this asking people to hold back their feedback because people have said something similar is frankly ridiculous.
I also hate the attitude that occasionally goes on display here, where people come across as seemingly willing to defend it if a dev walked into their house and took a dump on their keyboard as long as they still continued to spew out games of any quality.
As the consumer, I have the right to express my criticisms of a product. I don't have the right to yell at them to change it right this second, but I do have the right to say, look, your game isn't working for me, and I honestly couldn't recommend it to most people, because x reasons. this is what happened here. Free or not, I, the player, have this right to voice my feedback. They don't have to take it, but I can still point it out.
Also, my understanding is that the blindness organization wasn't going to pay them anything if they didn't hit 10,000 downloads anyhow, which is a moot point considering the restrictions they placed on the script actively decreases the number of downloads.
Keep in mind I wasn't offended or anything, just very irritated. I consider myself very open to blindness related satire, but as a stareotype that I encounter rather regularly with sighted people in my normal life it still irritates me to no end to have to deal with it in a game. I play a game for escapism. It's like playing a game about a black character as a black person and having the character only ever eat fried chicken, not necessarily offensive, but still, probably irritating and tasteless to leave in once the problem was pointed out to you, even if it happened purely by accident.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
Plato

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2019-02-14 16:47:17

It really is a shame that this game is discontinued so fast, and it does kind of speak about David's character if he encountered some issues that a lot of us were more then willing to help, liam even said he'd help, for! free! Liam!
Maybe it's me not seeing far enough into the situation, but it looks like he got a lot of critisism and was like, ono! I can't deal with this, instead of working with the comunity, discontinued!
If I'm incorrect in anyway please correct me, but that's how it seems to me.

yo! so I'm working on programing, it's really hard. But I'll tell you where you can contact me if your stupid enough to do so.
Contact information:email: [email protected]
Skype: Brennan Draves
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2019-02-14 16:58:52

I really would love to help with either bvoice acting or sound design.
Although I don't have a yeti, I can always mess with it to make it sound ok.

yo! so I'm working on programing, it's really hard. But I'll tell you where you can contact me if your stupid enough to do so.
Contact information:email: [email protected]
Skype: Brennan Draves
I'm usually found on online games, chatting, and being warned bye admins for talking to much, f**k you admin!

2019-02-14 17:00:20

Okay. So. My $0.02

Do we know for sure that X orgianization put restrictions on the script, or is that just wild assumptions and speculation? I also want to raise a point I've been mulling over.

Dark said in the other topic that the character is a blind whatever first. I don't feel that's solely the writers fault. I feel like the community as a whole shares the blame, and by 'community', I mean the entire blind community. I'd argue that the entire blind community needs to stop advertising the fact they are blind first. I mean, even on here, people are guilty of it, the Blind<whatever> as an example. Games like A Blind Legend or Blindfold games don't, I feel, help the perception any of oh, they're blind, then they game, instead of, they're gamers who happen to be blind, cool. I'd even argue audiogaming is guilty of this to a certain degree.

@Rashad: I agree with your point on the attitude, it was said to me ages ago that audiogamers treat developers like gods and, to paraphrase, hero worship them then get all hissy when devs don't keep churning out games.

Also, yes and no on your black people example. Since it's in my mind at the moment, I'll say stereotypes can be used for satire or making a social commentary (but whether that's hitting home is a whole other debate though). Personally, I wasn't offended and I downloaded the game. I get how people could be offended, but at the same time I'd argue that no, the developers shouldn't remove that piece of dialog. Hear me out, before everyone starts bitching at me....they should have, however expanded on it from all sides, perhaps had more dialog to explain from varying perspectives why it's okay in some cultures and not in others.
I'd argue though your black people stereotype is flawed, mostly since you're assuming other people would be irritated/offened and complain, and a developer would take action. Not every developer does. There's this myth developers have to do what the community says, that's a fallacy.

Also, yes, you got your right to voice your opinion, but so does everyone else. I worked in the AAA industry, as I've said multiple times, and though no, not a small indie outfit....I do know how games are made. My question for the developers is this.

David. It seems you had QA/beta testing and decided, for whatever reason, not to change the script at that point. Was that due to restrictions on the development or just a ddesire to finish up developing and put out ep 1? I'm not expecting a billion word essay on this, a simple yes/no will suffice honestly.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-02-14 18:48:13

Hi,
Have to agree with Rashad and Redfox here. If devs aren't willing to accept help from the community, but rather discontinue the game, then it's not the community's fault.
Also, I read through the original goldgun released Topic again and found, as Rashad said, no criticism that the game didn't deserve. Sure, some things were repeated a bit too often, but the criticism wasn't too harsh.
And to address this AVEK (this blind organization who forced mytruesound into this script): I would rather go bankrupt than let any damn organization fuck with my game script or whatever aspect of my Project.

Greetings and happy gaming, Julian
BTW, give me a thumbs up if you like my Posts!

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2019-02-14 20:08:34

@38 I highly doubt David had any say in the matter of discontinuation. From what I can gather, he was mainly the pr manager for the project. This means the decision to stop development didn't lie in his hands, at least not entirely.

Bar, bar, bar...
Bar is my name and to go bar is my aim...
Sometimes I'll go "Bad bar",
But in the end its always bar, ahem beer, ahem bar! beer bar!

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2019-02-14 20:11:20

@JaceK
1, they themselves talk about asking a blindness related organisation for money under the condition that the script mentions blindness in some way, as I understand it. They were not told they had to include a thing about face touching.
2, at no point did I say that other people don't have the right to voice their opinions, I just wanted to point out the insanity of this holier than thou attitude about developers that some people have got going in this topic and many others.

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
Plato

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2019-02-14 20:19:49

@Rashad: but the holier than thou goes every which way though is what I was saying. Is it holier than thou to defend devs to the nth degree? Yes. Could it be holier than thou to have X viewpoint...depending on your perspective? Absolutely.

@Connor: Okay, but that's just saying the script had to have blindness, not X Y Z aspects of blindness. I still ££

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-02-15 00:58:36

Ok. Who knows what they had to do or not do. The contract could've said that they had to stick to the initial script. Do some people not know how to read? The developer specifically stated that they were well aware of what they needed to improve. I would completely understand Rashad's point about there being power in numbers. Believe me, totally valid point. But when it is clear that the feedback has been received and will be fixed in the next episode, then continuing to hammer it is not helpful. It's tantamount to hundreds of people reporting a spam topic exactly when it comes up when the moderators are on a constant patrol for spambots and may only need one or two reports if it's been more than 24 hours. IT, just, isn't, necessary. This isn't even a matter of the holier than thou mindset, it's just a fact. This is why we need to adapt a bug-tracking system like what Github offers that developers can use to have users submit commits and the reports are organized, so that if a bug has been resolved, people will see that it has been resolved.
Yes, you have a right to voice your concerns. No question. But it is not courteous to beat a dead horse when you know damn well the developer has already visibly acknowledged it.
As for who's decision it was, again we don't know, although I do believe David was the pr for this project.
@Juliantheaudiogamer, AS for would rather go bankrupt then cave to an organization, all I can say is try saying that as a developer who just got funded. If there's no money, there are no games. Plain and simple. Unless you go stealing sounds which you shouldn't. Even then, you couldn't get a free game out with that kind of voice acting and involved development. So come back when you're a developer and see if you'd say the same thing *spoiler alert: I doubt it.*
And don't just say crowdfunding is the end-all-be-all. NS Studios tried that with his sound library and look where that got us *spoiler alert: nowhere, as I was the only contributor as all of you apparently wanted it to fall into your loving arms for free.*

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2019-02-15 11:13:20

Hi!
I'm sorry to say this, but, in my opinion, taking a step back is the best thing the developers can do. I played the game and, onestly, it didn't seem a game at all, because there was no challenge. I know it was meant to be just a taste of the future, but a taste has to make you hungry, and, for me at list, this didn't happen. Think about the sighted comunity: how do you think they would react if they've been promised a revolutionary game but they get something where they just have to follow someone that's walking or tilt the phone following, for example, a light?
However, I don't say this to discourage you developers further. On the contrary, I say this because we need passionate developers as you seem to be, and I think that a pitstop to rethink how you want to proceed and how to enance the quality of your products is the most clever and, most of all, the most respectful thing toward our comunity.
So, keep up your work and your hopes. For me, I'll certainly buy or download your next games, because I'm curious to see where will you go.

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2019-02-15 12:53:43 (edited by JaceK 2019-02-15 12:56:03)

siria wrote:

Hi!
I'm sorry to say this, but, in my opinion, taking a step back is the best thing the developers can do. I played the game and, onestly, it didn't seem a game at all, because there was no challenge. I know it was meant to be just a taste of the future, but a taste has to make you hungry, and, for me at list, this didn't happen. Think about the sighted comunity: how do you think they would react if they've been promised a revolutionary game but they get something where they just have to follow someone that's walking or tilt the phone following, for example, a light?
However, I don't say this to discourage you developers further. On the contrary, I say this because we need passionate developers as you seem to be, and I think that a pitstop to rethink how you want to proceed and how to enance the quality of your products is the most clever and, most of all, the most respectful thing toward our comunity.
So, keep up your work and your hopes. For me, I'll certainly buy or download your next games, because I'm curious to see where will you go.

@46:

You just described most AAA games, with an escort mission, and most games with motion controls, or in some cases mobile games. Difference is......sighted gamers *could* (I was gonna say *will* but....times they are a changing), bite on marketing. Also. To carry on your sighted gamer comparison.

Look up Telltale. Observe their games. Simplistic as hell. Yet. They were able to land massive, massive licenses with virtually no gameplay. Batman. Walking Dead. Game of Thrones, Minecraft Story Mode. All those games were, and I own the GoT games.....basically......pick a dialogue choice, and do a QTE. That....is the whole game. Oh, maybe walk around a tiny area.

So. Goldgun Ep 1 had more gameplay than a Telltale game (not hard to do really). If Telltale had made their games audio only, people would swiftly find they have as much gameplay as your average quickly made audiogame. No. I'm not joking. Telltale were a studio that had one hit game and milked the above formula of barely any gameplay......and paid for it by running out of money

Also, again. A game where you follow people? Let me get the sales numbers for, literally, every modern FPS, ever. In those games you follow your team mates around. Find a door that's lockd? Oh. Gotta have your AI buddies open it. Find a vehicle? Oh, got to wait on your AI buddies to climb in before you can. Then....there's Gearbox's entire library of games that are......

Start game. Follow <insert NPC here> around. Shoot things. Collect loot. That is, at a simple level.EVERY Gearbox game. Ever. And most 'Triple A' shooters. Hell, even indie games have done this. Just....look up playthroughs of Borderlands 1 and 2, Aliens Colonial Marines, or any modern FPS. You'll be staring at the back of your teams heads for 90% of the game length.

EDIT: Also, tilting a phone to follow a light? That's been done in mobile gaming and done to death. It was even done with the PS3's Sixaxis controller, for games like the (criminally underrated) Lair.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-02-15 14:58:44

Hi
JaceK: I didn't mean to complain about the gestures used or the mecanics involved. but, there's a main difference between following people for a purpose or following people while they're talking about trivial matters, tilting a phone for a good reason or tilting it to enter a code, two things that are not related in any way. If I have to enter a code, I expect to discover it using my mind, not to tilt a phone to find a position that, to me at list, seemed always the same. Or, if I have to tilt a phone, maybe I have a melody to reproduce, and notes that change depending on how I tilt. There's a difference between simple mecanics and simplistic gameplay. You talked about picking dialogue choices. That's a simple thing to do, but, if the choices impact the story, it will lead to a great gameplay. Oh, another thing. What about the voice keeping telling you to just double tap to do this? I understand it's a tutorial, but why not just saying double tap to interact with objects at the start of the game instead of instructing you everytime.

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2019-02-15 16:03:29

@Siria: I believe all that you're saying was probably already on the consideration list for the next episodes, as those were going to get a lot more involved. This should've been called the prologue if anything, but episode 0 should be a major disclaimer that it's probably going to be short, and it's probably going to be merely a concept episode. IT was the same with Cygnus, except it was properly called a prologue and then episode 1 was much longer and more involved.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2019-02-15 16:58:54

Hi!
49, that's why I'm truly glad that they're taking their time to reach the quality they really want. As I said, my criticism was not to be negative, but to give them a point because they're stepping back to find new and better solutions for their games. What I meant was: ok, this concept demo or whatever is really bad, in my opinion, but I like you developers because, instead of continuing on this way, you've the courage to stop to look for better roads. Maybe they'll resume this project when they'll have more experience with audiogames, maybe they'll never finish it but they'll give us something new that's really cool. I certainly prefer this to companies that keep producing new games with the same problems of their old ones.

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