2019-02-06 22:53:37

That makes absolutely no sense. According to your logic, Apple, Google, and Microsoft shouldn't have built fully-featured screen readers into their operating systems. There is no reason mainstream games can't do the same thing. Most people have no idea VoiceOver, TalkBack, and Narrator are built into their devices. Why should the average gamer care about accessibility options if they're disabled by default and require either a special command or an option to be switched on in a menu. If anything, your attitude doesn't encourage the idea that people should be writing games for everyone from the ground up. If anything, it stifles it. Big studios cannot make the excuse that it costs too much. These companies have incredible amounts of resources at their disposal. I think people either don't know what to do, don't know the issue exists, or don't care.

That's my main problem with BGT. It's great that we have it, but not including the ability to add visuals was a huge oversight on Philip's part. Liam's Brain Station game won't have visuals because of this. I think that game would be a great example of something built for everyone, but because it's written in BGT and has no visuals, sighted folks won't want to play it. Then again, the only group of people that truly can't play audio games are those who are deaf.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.
You may access my NVDA Remote, Three-D Velocity, Sound RTS, and Road to Rage servers by using the address christopherw.me. Road to Rage uses the default 6789 port.

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2019-02-06 23:00:48 (edited by defender 2019-02-06 23:56:11)

I mean unless it's on steam or the app store, most people won't give a shit anyway, especially when games like Brain Station have been done a thousand times with a much bigger budget already.
This is the same falissy that people had with AHC, which was just a cut down 90s style RPG with a tired storyline and modern audio, but a big leap forward for audio games! Graphics (even high quality ones) weren't going to change that even if you got a few friends playing it to be nice, because they have stuff that's ten steps ahead of that at their fingertips.
Unless we make blind centric games for sighted people that also happen to be decent audio games, and do allot of sensationalist marketing and put it on the right platforms, we wont' grab their attention as gamers. Maybe as financial backers, if we're lucky and smart.


Look at A Blind Legend for a great example of this done well, or The Blind Swordsman for a lower profile example. Their are actually several youtube videos from small channels of sighted people trying those ones for the novelty... But that's all it will ever be, an oddity to show off either for the uniqueness of it, or for virtue signalling
Accepting that fact though saves allot of wasted time and frustration... And if you move forward knowing your audience you have a much better chance of being successful than you would with your head in the clouds IMO.


AHC kind of managed to break the mold by not being for sighted people but still getting allot of press attention, but that's because they started up an actual company and had a team of people. They also clearly came in at a good time and marketed them selves heavily in places where we probably wouldn't have been invited too even three years ago, before this bigger accessibility push started.


It's great for the low vision people though, and they definitely shouldn't be excluded!


Also the excuse before was that it would be too expensive and time consuming to try and integrate serious accessibility into an already existing game, which is apparently true for the most part.
The build from the ground up with accessibility in mind approach seems to be going over better, but progress is slow and only a handful of studios seem enthusiastic about it still.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-02-06 23:21:44 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-06 23:23:05)

@50, oh my god dude. Have you ever written a screen reader? Do you know how one works in great detail? No? Then you shouldn't expect others to do it too. Its not exactly an easy process. And adding screen reader support may be easy, but do keep in mind that not everyone in the world knows about screen readers. That wasn't even my logic either. My logic was that we need to integrate.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-06 23:37:02

Yeah right, because having both audiogames and mainstream games is bad and will definitely destroy the community. Where does this opinion come from? Oh yeah, a guy which played probably 5 audiogames in his life if that. Mainstream games will always be superiour, however what's the actual percentage of mainstream games you yourself can play? Keep in mind that this is only playable, if I say games which you can complete that makes the percentage go down even more. I'm not talking about messing around in GTA, that's a playable game, however when you can do the story alone then you can call it a fully accessible mainstream game.

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2019-02-06 23:54:30 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-06 23:58:05)

@54, what kind of retarded, bullshit statement is that? Clearly you don't understand my post. At all. Please go reread my post. Did I ever tell people to stop playing audio games? No I didn't. Did I ever tell people that we need to integrate with the mainstream community and stop making ripoff clones of them that can't even come close to their mainstream equivalents? yes I did. And this is coming from someone who has played over 3/4 of the audio games in agarchive.net, to someone (aka you) who has played what, zero mainstream games? I clearly stated, in my post, that if we didn't want to destroy ourselves by making ripoffs and pathetic clones of mainstream games "because we could" that we should integrate.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 00:31:58

It's alright dude, there's a different language which does not involve calling something retarded all the time. If a mainstream game is not accessible, it is perfectly legitimate to play an audio version and to develop one if not available. If it's not as good as a mainstream equivalent, well, it doesn't in most cases have the same funding either, and playing something is better than nothing. In any case, let's say I was wrong and you are a hardcore audiogamer, then you are just as much wrong with me not playing mainstream games.

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2019-02-07 00:41:44

Hi.
So, that post might be a bit jumbeled up because I am half asleep, but here is my stance on the whole integration debate regarding gaming.
Something I want to address firstly is that, at leased from my point of view, many blind people enjoy their simple games and are not willing to step out of their own bubble, even when it comes to more advanced audiogames.
An example, even though it is a bit older. When audiogame hub 2 was released there was a questionaire on which kind of games people wanted to see in the app. And wel, what should I say, they voted Simon to be a part of the app.
Simon, the most simplistic game concept that there is and of which we already have a ton, even on the mobile market, things like Zany Touch, or the bopit game on Hubudle, which is now called game world I think.
Also, this explains why the blindfold games create such a tocsic comunity. Say one bad thing in the applevis comments about the game and you are ripped to shreds by people who can't keep up an argument chain and are not able to comprehend that there are people not wanting to support the cash grab methods of blindfold games.
Then, mainstream games.
Over the last year or so I noticed that my focus switched to mainstream games for the most part and audiogames were taking a backseat position. Yes, I due sometimes still play some games, games like AHC, new horizons, Cyclepath are still great games, possibly the latter not beeing the most complex of games, but surely having one of the best sound designs, shout out for Pitermach for creating those.
AHC was a major leap for audiogames when it was promoted. As Ethin said and which I can't deny, it is not as complex as a standard fantasy game for the mainstream market, it doesn't mean it is a bad game imo, it is very sollit for an audiogame and I really enjoy playing it.
But, back to the mainstream games.
I can understand that using the OCR and learning menus is tedious for some people not that experienced with computers or gaming, but again, as Ethin said, we need to integrate into the sighted comunity and kindly request accessibility changes.
The biggest chance we might have are with indi developers due to the fact that these are smaller studios and don't have a big player base already and are mostly more open for discussion.
We are just not as big as a market for the big studios to make an impact. Remember, these companys only have one thing in mind, and that is making money.
Yes, harsh for some possibly, but companys like Rockstar, Ubisoft, Bethesta and EA only see you as ATM machines to sell their products to.
Putting more money into accessibility just for some people is not worth the  effort for them.
Quick rundown why. Before a product of any kind is released to the public, companys conduct a marketing analysis.
Things like, what is are product, what is the group of people we want to sell the product to, what makes our product stand out. What is our market positions, do we hold a monopolistic position or do we have to face an Oligopol market with many vendors and customers?
The percentage of blind people activly playing audiogames isn't that large I can imagine, the percentage of that group which actively play mainstream games is even lower. I wouldn't say 0, but it's still quite a low number.
Maybe you get my point I try bringing across wy integrating accessibility features is not worth the effort for mainstream devs.
Do i wish the situation would be different? Oh yeah, I do, mainstream games have so many things audiogames don't have, but I am not someone who can go and change the situation over  night, it requires many people to move something in the business.

So, that much from me.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-02-07 00:46:39

Alright folks, let's settle this.
The real misunderstanding is in Chris's post:

Chris wrote:

Big studios cannot make the excuse that it costs too much. These companies have incredible amounts of resources at their disposal. I think people either don't know what to do, don't know the issue exists, or don't care.

Ok, have you ever looked up close at what mainstream game development actually implies? It's called investment vs return. Just because they may have millions doesn't mean it's steady millions. Millenials want 4k cinematic graphics? They have to invest in that, because apparently it's all the rage, plus games and entertainment seem to be merging as one (refer to the most recent example of this, the live performance from this electrohouse dj called Marshmello on Fortnight, the seemingly most popular pvp in the world.) but I digress. Indie devs especially, or companies like EA that build the game from the ground up with accessibility in mind, have a much better start. They're already investing into the project, and it's going to usually turn out to be an already-good project anyway with steady revenue growth. But redoing a project to add accessibility features that will impress a tiny sum of customers? Remember, we're up against millions of folks here, so that big an investment for such little return, just, isn't, going, to happen. Don't fight me on this - it's just a natural fact. Big investment for knowingly little return does not make financial sense for even a million dollar studio. They still have employees that they need to pay and treat nicer (hope you haven't been hiding under a rock, have you seen Rockstar's recent case of outrageous forcing of crunchtime for q a testers and voiceovers for Red Dead Redemption?) Or how Telltale games essentially folded, laying off so many of their staff unfairly, at least the ones who didn't already feel like they wanted to get the hell out, strictly because! of employee dehumanization and shaming for not going along with intentional crunchtime, or being told they could take days off if needed yet being seen as the asshole when they actually do (that's a rockstar example) etc. Make no mistake about it the bloated corporate game studios are no fun and games, and you might as well educate yourself on that fact as well. That's part of the reason why indie devs are around in the first place; more freedom, more creative lead, less worrying about satisfying the masses and more doing something for the greater good.

I'm the only adventure at c: master hahahaha I have unlocked just about everything!

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2019-02-07 00:51:49

It appears to me that someone has resorted to their old ways, accusations and claims. So buckle up folks, because I'm about to get some crayons out to do some xplaining. The only thing I can promise at the end is the likelyhood of salty tears and another tantrum.
post #9: The fact that something hasn't been updated in 8 years does not mean that it won't be updated. He could get bored, he apparently handed it to someone last I spoke to him. There are all kinds of ways that BGT could get updates, so don't just assume t hat it won't until there's evidence to support that. This doesn't mean that you should throw all your eggs in the BGT basket, just that you shouldn't be making such claims.
post #19: This is where you start screaming that the person is making themselves look like an idiot and throwing insults around. You know, the ones you always accuse others of targetting you with. A language is a language, and there's no need what so ever to comply with the sighted realm and make games in python and c++ simply because they do. I have thoughts on BGT, but I'll get to them when someone who has taken the time to write a grown-up post makes their comments heard. PS: this is coming, hold on to your socks.
#22: the PE size being different certainly does prove something, but you attack this later, so I'm just going to stick with saying screaming someone is wrong is yet again wrong, and I'll happily disprove everything later, to add to what Carter has already done and said.
#38: Wowee, finally a post with some substance. I like this, we should talk. I don't really mind BGT in that people write things in it. I have multiple issues which really aren't issues in and of themselves with BGT in general.
1) This virus flag is kind of annoying and makes it really really hard to run in a lot of places. It will pretty much kill your ability to widely distribute, and I've seen all kinds of people turn away when they either couldn't get around the issue or rightfully don't feel comfortable running something flagged as a virus.
2) It doesn't really seem to have spawned all that many good developer practices. Maybe the ease of use brought the copypaste coders out of the woodwork, I truly don't know. It does bridge the gap between compiling a ton of dependencies, dealing with python packaging, etc, but most people copy code and have repos of code that are not checked or haven't really had much work done on them. I present to you as exhibit B, sam's rotation code which is very flawed and which all kinds of people use rather than bothering to do their own math and research. More mainstream languages provide this kind of code in libraries written by people who know what they're doing for the most part, and it's not super hard to find rotation code, or a library that will help you with it.
3) There are a lot of issues with extending games. One of the things I witnessed a lot was Sam saying "Well BGT sucks for X, but redspot is already x lines of code and I don't want to restart." At the point where you start running into issues imposed by a very old and outdated scripting engine or a terrible networking library, you've probably already sunk a lot of time and effort into writing your game and simply don't want to restart. This just makes the decision to continue bolting things on to an already project more viable, and it makes the likelyhood of bugs and issues persisting much higher.
4) Finally, programming has a decent learning curve. I don't know particularly how I feel about that, I don't want to say that facedesking until you figure out just which magic words to say to make python work properly in a nice compiled package should be required for everyone, but the complaint I usually see is people moving from a language where everything is handed to them to a language where they might have to write their own things like a game menu. There are things that solve this problem, but unfortunately the python library that most of the people I know are working on isn't going to be public, so that problem won't ever be solved until someone steps up and does the same song and dance to create an audio game toolkit in Python or something similar.

All of this said, I do agree that there is an advantage which you'd only get through a high level language in that BGT is easy to rapidly develop, prototype and create your ideas in and doesn't require a PHD in smart pointer management. I think Python would somewhat serve as a solution to this as well.

#39: I agree with most of this except for the single threaded application bit. Unless you're using a language that truly supports threads, this doesn't matter anyway. Usually multithreading is not the solution to performance.

#41: You're comparing apples to oranges here. He's saying the BGT stub is a different size, and you are arguing this point and saying that this doesn't mean anything. There are ways to verify if things were added or removed, some of which Carter already explained, but I also don't think that debug vs release stubs exist in BGT (I could be wrong). Optimization plays no part here, as the code is not available and thus can't be optimized, at least the stub itself can't. Finally, people tell you not to use -O3 because many of the optimizations enabled by -O3 above -O2 can slow your programs down, not because it makes your code do weird things. You've thrown a lot of facts in here, many of which don't actually address any of the points made about the stub size being different across the BGT that everyone gets, and the stub being different for another game.

#48: 46 didn't really disagree with you on your integration with the sighted community, but you're clearly to busy handing out tidbits of wisdom like a broken Yoda not to have bothered to read his post.

Now we've devolved into Ethin screaming about retarded bullshit statements, so I'll leave you all to watch the show. Someone give the toddler a juice box.

2019-02-07 00:58:05 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-07 01:03:12)

@59, not even going to bother responding. I've already apologized for the PE stuff, your not worth my time. Cool off, I don't see anyone else on this topic acting as dickish as you are.
@57, I like that one. At least someone basically understands what I'm getting at.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 01:01:34

No, you really didn't appologise for calling someone's response "retarded bullshit." Even if you had, I'm a little over you throwing a raging fit every time someone disagrees with you, then tearfully saying sorry when someone calls you down for it. Perhaps you should go back to trying to create the next best multithreaded sqlite based MOO... Oh wait, you can't. I guess you're stuck here trying to be superior to everyone else. Enjoy. wink

2019-02-07 01:05:56

@60 well, it is not that hard to grasp when you play mainstream games yourself and have a lot of contact with sighted people, which is not true for all of the blind people around here I would suppose. I am happy that there are accessible mainstream games out there, most of the new players might not remember this but when I started gaming, there weren't fancy things like OCR and screen readers on PS2 and what not, you had to remember all the menus that you wanted to know about and use, or in certain wii games remember where which option on the game menus was because the game wouldn't support navigation via the d-pad and only would use pointing the controler at a certain option which you wanted to activate.
Something I forgot in my last post also is that a lot of blind people expect their product to be fully accessible, and are stubborn when it is not fully accessible.
take steam for example. It can be done totally fine with object nav of NVDA, if people would finally pull their ass together and sit down more than 30 seconds to experiment with a program they potentially want to use. Sorry to break it to ya, but not everything is fully accessible, if you have to use workarounds or different methods of navigation, go and use them and stop whining already.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-02-07 01:07:42 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-07 01:09:34)

@61, considering that no one on this thread has been as dickish as you've been and things were (I hoped anyway)starting to cool off after 56, and then you came inn and heated stuff back up to level 15... yeah, you should look at yourself before bitching about other peoples' problems. It was "retarded bullshit" to me because of the insulting tone that literally dripped from it and the offensive way it was written. Whether you like me or not is irrelevant. Whether you are over what I do or not is irrelevant. You don't act worse than the person your targeting and hope to 'look the good guy'. I'd think you'd know that but hey... And yes, I know you can apply that to me, but right now we're talking about you and not me.
@62, yeah, I know, the outrage that's raised over Steam's "un-accessibility" annoys me sometime, especially when I and several friends are perfectly capable of using it with OCR and are currently content with the way things are right now. They'll get better when they get better but you can't rush this kind of ting.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 01:53:31

Yeah, you also can't force push valve to do any accessibility improovments, some people due prefer the jack hammer method and then wonder why nothing is done for them.
Let's hope the NFB doesn't know about steam.

Greetings moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-02-07 01:58:21

@64, knowing the NFB and their nasty habit of digging their nose into every possible thing and making it accessible ASAP, they probably already do but haven't done anything because they don't have the money to topple valve in court. And even if they did I doubt they'd win.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 02:02:05

Yeah true. Well, the NFB doesn't apply to me because I am totally not in the US, but I due read their resolutions sometimes and oh boy, no wonder companys are not doing much for accessibility. The way it sounds to me is that they are going like do it now! instead of explaining the problem, giving suggestions and asking nicely if it could be changed ... it is so easy.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-02-07 02:16:35

@66, I know, right? Its incredibly to ask. It seems like blind advocate organizations have forgotten a word called 'civility'.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 02:17:37

Moderation:

Ethin, consider this an official warning. You have a tendency of becoming inflammatory when things don't suit you, and the "retarded bullshit" statement is an excellent example of this. If I had been here closer to the time when it was made, I'd have probably issued a caution and called it good. You have a warning instead, however, because you've since decided to do what you usually do, and double down on your choice of language. Ask yourself this: how is it that I can tear someone's arguments apart or disagree with them without calling them (or their ideas) stupid or retarded or bullshit, but you seemingly can't? Why is that, do you think? In any case, a warning. Please try and cool your jets a bit.

Sorressean: while I agree with about 95% of what you're saying, Ethin makes a good point in that things were relatively cool before you turned up the heat again. I'm issuing a caution for this. You could've stopped short of where you did and still got your point across, and the only reason it's not a warning is because in my experience at least, this is rairly rare for you. A caution (with no immediate consequence) may cause you to reflect enough to realize how better to get your points across in future, while Ethin is sort of infamous for his temper.

The TL>DR version is this: everybody play nice.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-02-07 02:33:09

@68, I know, I tend to do that. And I try to remain calm. But its very easy to get caught up in the heat of... debate, I guess... and I tend to lose control sometimes (which doesn't do me much credit).

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 02:44:39

I get that, and it's good that you recognize this trait, but at this point I'm kind of looking for results, not just recognition. You've said many times that you will change, or try to work on it, and then you're good for a little while, and then it all flares up again. So that's why you got a warning while the other dude got a caution. If this had been a rare occurrence or your first ever situation, different story. Just try and work a little harder on this. Believe me, I'm the last person to say that people shouldn't get hot under the collar. I have a temper, too. I've just learned to control it a bit, that's all.
And no, I'm not trying to moralize excessively either.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-02-07 02:58:27 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-07 03:02:51)

@70, I know. And I know, you can get hot under the collar, we all can. Its hard for me to remain calm when I'm first almost literally insulted and then someone acts like a dick in an effort to "be the good guy" to add insult to injury. And yes, I was a jerk earlier in this topic, but I did apologize about my behavior before 55 but I still feel that, in a way, 54 was asking for it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 03:53:08

@Jayde/moderation: I'm not going to dispute my caution. I'm really really over him hulking out and screaming at people, and "retarded bullshit" wasn't the first time in this thread. If by turning up the heat you mean I called him down for some of the things he was saying after the fact, I was just now getting to and reading through this thread (and the heat was turned up, if you will and then died down when people didn't respond to the abuse above and then below). I'm mostly just fed up with the amount of abuse he heaps on people who don't deserve it, and when someone responds and says something, no matter how they approach it he doubles down on the abuse and accuses people of targetting him. Many of these people don't know a lot, and many of them don't speak or write English as a first language. Most of them just want to learn, and there are so many ways to teach (or just to not teach, if you do indeed think that people are idiots) rather than just screaming because they don't know what someone thinks they should know. I will attempt to be more civil in my responses, but I'm not particularly sure where that's going to get us.

2019-02-07 05:04:44 (edited by Ethin 2019-02-07 05:11:45)

@72, some could probably argue (quite understandably) that you heap the same abuse on me when you post and its directed towards me. The only thing that's different is that you don't use the same language I do. Like I said earlier, whether your tired of what I do is irrelevant; if you want to appear as better than me, you need to be less rude than I am and show that you are better than I am. Posting the way you currently do and appearing much ruder than even I am only makes you look worse than I am, truth be damned. As I said previously (without the harsh language), before you complain (though I'd categorize it as wining) about my faults and issues, you should consider yours, and wonder if you truly are better than me. Your a good person to talk to when its not when its on the subject of coding or technology, but as soon as the topic changes to such things, you immediately become even worse than me. A friend once said that I "raise the tension to 11", to which I replied that you raised it to 13. So, really, who's better?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-02-07 06:35:58

very good discaution! nice!

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2019-02-07 08:42:53

@Soressean I take your point. You had no way of knowing that we were eventually going to step in and say something, so you decided to do it yourself, as it were. Future reference though, you can probably assume that this sort of abuse won't just be left to stand. it's not conducive to a friendly forum. Basically, let us try and do the job we've got. Cautions do not accumulate, by the way, so it's more like saying "heads up" than actually any form of punishment.

@Ethin I actually don't have a ton of sympathy for your last couple of posts, because like it or not, Soressean's got a point. You will fault other people for their language and then use inflammatory language to get your points across (you've done it to me several times, and eventually I just learned not to engage you). And the thing is, you can't claim ignorance anymore. You know you get hot-tempered sometimes, and you keep on doing it. This isn't new. This isn't the first time another user decided to single you out, either. This is why my last message said I'm looking for results.

But I'm going to show you an example of a way you might be better able to manage situations from here on out. Just work with me for a sec.

Person1: I don't see how you don't understand this. Cookies are obviously made out of cheese. If you don't know that, I don't know what else to tell you. it's clear to just about everybody. Made of cheese. Now can we move on?
(now obviously this is a very silly comment, and has a combative style to it, a style you tend to launch yourself at whenever you see it. So instead of doing what you normally do, try an approach more like this.)
I don't get how you can go around saying cookies are made of cheese. And I don't really appreciate being spoken to that way. Here's some proof that cookies are obviously not made of cheese.
(Rather than, say, calling the person or their statements idiotic or whatever.)

There's just no need for name-calling. You can absolutely destroy someone's point or their credibility without resorting to a single harsh word if you know how.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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