2019-01-31 00:24:51

Post 47 is proof of what 46 is trying to showcase, that being that even when you own a mac, you're still using windows.  If you can natively do everything you can do everything that is anything and everything computing on a mac, why even have windows anything else?
Again, no bash, but it's true.  For all the love I have for OSX, the at least 500 dollar price tag to run it on the best hardware possible, coupled with whatever else you're going to have to pay for accessory wise, then throw in tech support and whatever other bla you may want to purchas to protect your 500 plus dollar investment, is not entirely reasonable for anyone who isn't invested into the Apple system... iTunes library full of iTunes movies and tracks, Apple music, devices like the various pods, watches, iPad, TV, iPhone and on and on we go, it's just not worth it.  If you have all of the above, there is a beautiful, seamless all over the system integration.  Answer your calls, and messages wherever you are and on whatever device you want, stream your music and other media to whatever you have, find whatever device you've lost, update them all with ease, all around connectivity, information and stability that feels exactly the same, no matter what device you're using.
Beyond that, it's just another system, another device, another bunch of hardware to have that, may or may not suit you depending on what you want it for.  It's beautiful and stable, it hardly crashes, it's screenreader just works in practically every situation native to it, it can hold your hand or let you go as far as you want to, and it doesn't complain at you because you forgot some piece of maintenance you would otherwise have to do where windows is concerned.  The machine will last you for years and will work with more or less every update and upgrade along the way as long as it lasts, it can easily be reset to its default settings, you more than likely won't need any sighted eyeballs to tap into its more obscure functionality or to repair it where simple repairs are concerned.
But these are all just selling points, because outside of these things, there really is, nothing, that you can do with a mac that you can't do with a windows PC.  Audio editing?  Audacity for free, reaper for cheap.  Audio listening?  Foobar, winamp, VLC, and on and on.  If you really miss it, get iTunes for windows; it works more or less the same.  Internet browsing?  Do I really need to go there?  IE, FF, chrome... I'm sure you get the point.  It's a question of whether or not you want to make your cake and eat it, or whether you want to buy your cake and eat it.  Make the cake?  Use windows.  Buy the cake more or less already made?  Use a mac.  Because it's usually cheaper to make the cake than to buy the cake, if you're financially strapped and you have the knowhow, you'll make the cake.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-31 00:25:31

wow my friend. so far my mac works with no problems whatsoever but to have windows do all that crazy stuff I'd surely be frustrated. if things freeze on you then you have no reason to be frustrated for if people find it wrong to go mad on things freezing, then that's truly wrong for I was on my laptop about 3 hours ago, was working on something and half way through it froze on me. and lol I lost everything I put in to place and had to get it done all over again lol.

2019-01-31 00:49:30

Yeah from what I can tell, Mac isn't anything special. The market for serious mac users seems to be musicians/producers, and professional videographers. Other than that, no real reason to get one. If you want the hardware, OK sure, and you can put a VM of windows on it or boot camp it, but it comes with a higher price tag.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-01-31 02:34:48

Yeah @53, but it really comes back around to the fact that a great number, perhaps even the majority of mac users are still using windows, even if not primarily.  For all the good macs supposedly do, we still have to clutch at MS when the going gets tough, which is what I was trying to bring to the foreground when trying to answer to posts 17 and 46, which state the question legitimately.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-31 04:58:36

Here's the thing with that Brandon, even videographers and music producers are not as loyal to the mac as Apple wants them to be. They were when the macbook pro was actually an enthusiast-friendly machine with truly stand-out resources and software. But now with an unupgradeable line of pro laptops it's becoming harder for enthusiasts and creatives to justify buying a machine that really isn't loyal to them anymore. In the creative circles, for the same few thousand you can spend on a mac, you can get a machine with upwards of 64gb ram, a combination of ssd's and hdd's for your needs, and loads of other customizable internals. I'm speaking of course of
studiocat.com
a custom-build pc marketplace that lets you custom-fit the pc you buy from them. The mac pro was going to be that supercomputer-esc model Apple was trying to hipe, but it fell through.

2019-01-31 05:02:04 (edited by jack 2019-01-31 05:02:40)

As for Carl's willingness to help, while that is to be commended, there really is nothing we as users can do at this point to save the mac accessibility. Apple won't take our feedback seriously, and that's already been proven in the Facetime fiasco (the 14year old that found the bug and reported it, Apple didn't entertain the report because they only take those reports from people who have a developer account which costs $100.) So basically, unless you're paying us even more than you already did, you're just another run-of-the-mill customer as far as we're concerned and we don't need to take your *perfectly honest* bug reports seriously.

2019-01-31 05:06:39

@Nocturnus's points in @51, also apply to the Linux platform, as many of the programs he mentioned also work on there natively using the Orca screen reader.
NB. Chrome/Chromium Browser support for Orca "Natively" is in the works, though Chromevox in the meantime does its job well for the two!

As for Windows? Switching to GNU/Linux full time over the weekend, and dumping Windows as my "primary" operating system!
I'll save that story, for another day and thread.

As for Linux accessible gaming, Jenux OS has the easiest time of getting many Windows audio games to work under "WINE," unless ya want to use a Windows "Virtual Machine" or try setting up WINE yourself using  your prefered distro of choice.

2019-01-31 05:54:35 (edited by Nocturnus 2019-01-31 06:13:22)

@queenslight, 57, Linux is a subject I'm not really going to get into, save to sing the praises I know of it are entirely true, because I've had no patience with it.  That's more my problem than linux's fault, so I can't speak for or against it from a neutral standpoint, anymore than I could tell you why you should get a mustang or a Ferrari and why one might be better suited to you over the other.
But, I had a mac!  I sold said mac, not because I wanted to, but because, at the end of the day, my mac fetched more money than any of my windows PC's and I needed it... BAD!  I had it hooked up to my soundsystem!  It was thrilling!  I answered calls on my mac, and on my phone, and on my watch!  and on my iPad!  I did the same with messages!  I had a bluetooth keyboard!  I watched webcasts using Safari!  I listened to podcasts through all of those devices!  I typed out a few posts on my mac and submited them to ag net!  I even got BTSync up and running because, because why not!
And the whole time I was playing with my mac, I didn't play a single game.  the idea of virtualizing windows was outrageous; why even bother if I had a working windows PC?  That leaves every audiogame I've ever played out of the box, because windows, not OSX.  I took away great memories from the whole experience; being able to preview without leaving my list of files was probably one of the coolest things ever, particularly since I have a massive music library.  Bootup time was simply astounding!  Even the end was the most bitter sweet experience; after receiving the clearest instructions on how to trash all of my progress and reset to factory settings, I was simply able to do it all without any hastle... The end!
And all of that is doable on a windows PC, if you're willing to do the legwork.  Winamp and foobar may not let you preview in the same way, but you can customize either player to never show its face if you so choose so that you can just hit up arrow, down arrow, enter and get music.  Not good enough?  Want global shortcut keys?  Sure!  I haven't even scratched the surface of VLC because I just don't have the time, but it seems like a useful little gem.  I don't know what all FF and Google Chrome can do, and I haven't used IE in about 4 years, and I'm not using edge because win7 and I'm happy with the first two.  What I do know is that there's a ton of customizability there too.
But Linux?  You guys are way over my head and far more patient than I really have time to be.  The funniest and yet most admirable aspect you all have in common is that, you have all the bragging rights of the Apple fanboys times infinity, on steroids, and you don't use them, because you've all learned a little something called humility.  Your platform is open-source all the way through, it runs on practically nothing and does it successfully, it will always do so reliably, you can revive old trashed boxes with it, you can relieve the stress of programming with it, you receive more important and critical updates and you can specify precisely what you want and what you don't, you can secure and resecure and re-resecure your already securely secured system, you have a variety of distributions, it's all free to use and you don't need to argue with anyone about it.  Did I mention your communities are all around better?  Yeah, they'll help just about anyone even if you are an absolute doofus; I just don't have the humility to admit that... I'm an absolute doofus.
Because all of the above is true for me, about me, with me, around me and the like, it's windows for now.  Time stops for no man, woman or child; some people have a ton of it and will learn linux and I'll commend them all for it... I can't and I won't.  I'm getting too old, too fast, with three children to take care of and my silly, stubborn nature getting in the way of all that is new and seems far too daunting for me to take the plunge.  I should have done it when I was 10, but that was 20 years ago.  I chose to date windows, because she was so popular, and I was so taken in.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-31 06:48:57

@57, the problem is that we shouldn't have to go through wine or a VM to play games on Linux. Again, the same point Nocturnus raised earlier is still valid -- why virtualize Windows if you can just buy a PC with it for pretty much the same price of Windows? I won't consider Mac or Linux gaming platforms in their own right until I can run games natively on them, without any VM technology or Wine in my way. Wine is a kinda hack together solution. There's a 50-50 chance of you managing to get anything working on it; if it works, great, but if it doesn't, too bad, your screwed. A VM though is a solution that has a nearly 100-percent success rate. Again though, why should you have to use hardware resources when a VM will never be able to bring you the same speed and performance a bare metal OS can give you?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-01-31 09:42:16

@tmstuff000 in post 40:
Writing such post just proves your experience with the mac OS and what you really know about it. Please tell me: On what computer have Apple skipped the headphone jack? When you like Windows and hate Apple that much, why even waisting your time in this topic? You have to realise the fact that people are different. Why not just like the fact that there are more alternatives available? Please spend your time on something more positive, before I start to argument your posts to hell.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2019-01-31 09:50:23 (edited by defender 2019-02-01 14:13:43)

@40
First, don't demand that people follow your opinions as if they were complete and unarguable facts, you are clearly very biased.


The difficulty in repair, the missing numpad and the missing CD drive have been things common to all thinner laptops for years now, Mac and Windows both.
And Mac navigation is great for the most part, just quite a bit different from Windows. After all how could so many people be using their Mac otherwise if it was really that bad? I've used it my self if not very recently and it was just fine, so maybe your VM was messing it up or something, since Mac VM's are notoriously iffy.
Agreed about the keyboard though, at least on the newer models. how ever for probably a decade before that they were quite nice, so that can't be applied to all Macbooks.
As mentioned by others it's still quite easy to run unsigned apps on the Mac even if they heavily discourage it (I'd hope it'd be common sense that you can probably trust a developer's download) And bigger companies have to pay for signing on Windows as well.
It is a problem still though I won't deny that.
The touchbar is kind of an issue for blind people but it's not impossible to use, and not all models have it yet either.
Oh and the missing headphone jack has nothing to do with the Mac and Apple aren't the only ones doing it now on smartphones anyway. Of course I think they definitely jumped the gun do to Bluetooth still having lag problems, but it's a different issue.
They are for sure overpriced both to buy and repair though even used, even with the awesomely strong unibody design and generally high quality parts, and by no means am I an Apple fanboy I promise, I've wanted to nuke their shiny offices from orbit several times over the years.


LOL SLJ I was writing my post as you were.

2019-01-31 10:07:11 (edited by SLJ 2019-01-31 10:13:03)

Dark wrote:

I'm finding this discussion interesting myself.
I heavily considered getting a mac in 2015, since at the time I didn't like the look of windows 10 but manifestly could no longer go on using XP which I'd used for far longer than I should've done by that point.

The chief reason I didn't in the end was basically that other than compatibility with my Iphone, I couldn't really see the advantage in a mac.

I tried one out, and the Vo commands looked a bit complex, which admitedly I could've gotten used to, and the ways the operating system worked weren't obviously what I was familiar with, but again I could've got used to it, but ultimately my thought was "why?! should I?

If I was going to be emulating Windows to play a huge baclog of audiogames, well why not use Windows anyway? And it wasn't as if I was a huge fan of  things like Itunes anyway.

My basis for spending time and trouble on any technology has always been "What does it do!"

Not some nebulous set of Superlatives.
It doesn't matter if you tell me that computer x has  seventy thousand  hoojamaflops of giga maxity, or an all new squiggly wiggly processor, or that its more secure or more faster or more huggable.

My question is always going to be "So what does it do!"

Thus, the only time I considered Windows 10 worth while was when I started to run into stuff I couldn't do on Xp, the only time I bought an Iphone was when I heard about games and useful aps on it etc.

This has always been my issue with a Mac. Where are the games and interesting applications and things to do that you can't do on Windows anyway?

I don't mean to come across as a Mac hater, I am certainly not a microsoft or Ios fan boy, or a fan boy for any software company really, I'd just be interested to know, given this discussion and the fact that even regular mac users like Slj are using Windows to play games what the practical advantage of a mac is, especially given that Macs are generlly more expensive than Windows pcs.

I will try to answer this.
I live alone without any sighted help at all. Therefore I have to fix my own computer and stuff on my own. If I need to reinstall my Mac, I can do it on my own. I can also do that on Windows 10, but that require me to have a sound card, which works with the Windows installer, or by using a USB headset.
Mac computers do not have a bios. All the settings are done directly from the OS itself.
I have used Mac OS since 2008 I think, and I have never had issues like I have in Windows, where it suddenly won't boot. If I ever get this issue, I can access the recovery part, which I might not be able to do in Windows, depending on what computer I have.
I find the Mac OS much more stable than Windows. The system can run for months without the need for restarting the computer. If an app crashes, it does not crash VOiceover that often that I have seen apps crash screenreaders in Windows. That's my experience, however, others might have other experiences.
I find using the Mac OS easier than using Windows. When working with multiple applications, programs, you can switch between the different programs by pressing command tab, which is the same as alt tab in Windows. In Windows, you switch between all the Windows you have opened, and not just the programs. Here is an example:
I currently have my web browser opened, which have five different Windows opened. I also have my mail program opened, which contains lots of opened mails. When I press command tab, I switch between only the mail app and my webbrowser. Not all the windows I have opened inside the different programs. There is an other command for switching between the windows in the current program.
I find web navigation easier with VOiceover than a screenreader in Windows. There are a lot of web navigation commands in VOiceover as well. But you don't need them. Instead, you can use the rotor like on the iPhone where you choose headings, links or other web navigations, and then you just use the rotor to navigate. An other cool feature is quick navigation, which lets you navigate the whole website, including web navigation commands, just by using the arrow keys. So, I can for example navigate this forum link by link, heading by heading etc. with one hand, just by using the arrow keys.
You mention media players. I don't like iTunes as well. Only for buying music. VLC Player is fully accessible. Much more accessible than in Windows.
We have some amazing audio apps like Highjack, which can record sound from applications or external sound devices. You can connect sources together and make your own setup. There are accessible audio editors as well, and if you are into music production, Garage band is free, and Logic is also accessible.
Then, having access to both the Mac OS and Windows lets you choose the programs which is mostly accessible on either platforms. For example: I reasonly discovered that the Twitch app and the Discord app seems to be quite accessible on the Mac. I just like an other alternative, so I can use the platform which is mostly accessible for the app I need.
Regarding the Mac computers, yes they are expensive. I'm using a Macbook Air 11 inch which I bought back in 2014. The computer have ran all day and night since the first day I got it. The only thing which needed to be replaced was the battery. I always take the computer with me when I'm traveling. I think that's quite good for the cheepest laptop to last for so long. I want a new laptop, not because this computer here is bad, it works just fine, but it would be great to have a newer and more powerful computer.
Edit: Something which I forgot:
Many people don't like that Microsoft change the interface in Windows that often. Especially blind people. Many people find it difficult to get used to new systems. Apple do not change the interface that much. I still use the same commands etc. as I did back in 2008. smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2019-01-31 14:56:43

oh, wow. there's been so much stuff I've missed anyway to talk about the mac for some people have stated the mac as a totally unreliable bit of equipment, but ok there's probably some problems with the mac but as much as I need to add, all the things I've come across I can't comment on it at all. but although I did take note of the fact that yes some people might like using mac book pro's and other stuff like mac OSX and Linux, but demanding someone to switch from one thing to another is very wrong indeed. for if someone enjoys what they are doing, just leave them alone and let them just chill out and do what they want to do. to have anyone go about what you want them to do is also wrong. for if people want to go about there own devices, there is no point in to having them switch from what they are doing to something that you probably might like, but they might not like. after all it's people's own thought's on it all, and if something doesn't work on there system and you state that it does, then ok it's a good thing to enquire on what isn't working weather they've an error or something isn't working or if something's crashed, but if they don't want you to continue to make there life hell about it just leave them alone! for I'm sure that once they've time on there hands they might be able to figure it out themselves, but even though it stressed them out at least they'd turn round and thank you for helping them out as much as they could. lol ok I must admit no wonder people turn to me for my advise is so precise, and I've helped out so many people some people even hug me and pin me to the wall of Where ever they are weather it'd be there house or something, and no one will let me go so they have to have there friends pull me away witch is quite funny lol.

2019-01-31 15:37:06 (edited by Dark 2019-01-31 15:43:12)

Thanks to Nocturnus, Slj and roelvdwal for providing some very coherent answers to my questions.

I do see the advantage of intigration, my brother  his ability to control his Mac from his Ipad and be able to send documents etc between them, though he also has a windows pc hooked up to an Xbox for purely gaming purposes, and I can definitely see how a screen reader can support different programs differently.

That being said, I'm still not %100 sure if any of these are reasons that a person should use a Mac over windows, especially if they still need to be emulating windows for games and so on, or having to go through complex user accounts to run aps from devs who don't pay apple huge somes of money, and even more especially if Vo on the mac isn't getting the updates.

Then again, I will freely admit that Windows 10 has worked out far better for me than expected in terms of stability, interface and speed of use, and much of my perceived disgruntlement with post Xp windows didn't actually materialise once I tried the thing out and found how to set things up as I wished.

While I admit that setup did use some third party programs such as C cleaner to remove junk and classic shell to get the start menu I wanted, at the same time none of this was particularly difficult to do either, or at least not for me.

While this discussion has made me vaguely interested to try a mac if I ever get the chance to play with one, at the same time, unles something really catastrophic happens to Windows in the future I'm still not %100 sure whether the advantages of having a mac are convincing enough to make someone want to choose one and need to emulate Windows as opposed to use Windows all the time anyway, and thus whether the potential user base of mac gamers exists, especially given the expense of developing for Apple.

Of course, as I said, I'm  surprisingly happy with Windows 10 and NvdA myself, far happier than I thought I'd be four years ago, so take this opinion with a good pinch of salt.

Oh and Btw, as to the "no headphone jack" business, I have an Iphone 8, and don't mind using the Lightning to 3.5 cable, since it is quite small and easy to carry. The only time it is a miner annoyance is when my Iphone is running short of batteries and I want to both plug it in and use it, though usually I try to keep it charged up enough that this doesn't tend to matter.

As with Windows 10, its something I got used to far quicker than I suspected when i actually tried it out for myself, and its not as if the Lightning to 3.5 cable is large, cumbersome or clunky.

the only miner pain, is when you want to then buy a set of earbuds, since unless you go for a given model and style as I usually do with Sanheisa, its rather hard to guarantee what you get won't have a lightning cable, and since I like earbuds that can fit both my Iphone and my victor Stream, that can be a miner annoyance.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-31 16:29:10

slj wrote:

I live alone without any sighted help at all. Therefore I have to fix my own computer and stuff on my own. If I need to reinstall my Mac, I can do it on my own. I can also do that on Windows 10, but that require me to have a sound card, which works with the Windows installer, or by using a USB headset.

This argument worked for me 4 years ago when I bought the mac. Using Talking Windows Preinstallation was a good solution, but it really was never able to go beyond reinstallation. But on the mac I could access recovery and reinstall if I needed to, and that's fantastic.
But, now Windows 10 has that, and it even has the ability to use Narrator in safe mode, which is something the mac doesn't have (safe mode is not something you can ignore should a problem require it.) As for a usb soundcard, that's not as much a showstopper as it's made out to be. Several basic soundcards with input/output jacks go for literally under $10. You don't need a good one, you just need one that's plug-n-play, and it will take you through windows setup just fine. When your funds are tight and that's the only choice you have, you might as well go for that before buying a mac if you can't afford it.

2019-01-31 17:18:21

ANd quite honestly I have never encountered a built in sound card not working. I think that's more of a pre caution by Microsoft in case you use something older so you don't blame them.

2019-01-31 18:08:21 (edited by Chris 2019-01-31 18:15:14)

Yeah, the advantages macOS used to have aren't as important now that Microsoft got new staff and actually seems to genuinely care about what their customers want in terms of accessibility features. I honestly think the writing is on the wall for the Macintosh line. If you look at the lack of substantial hardware updates in years and the state of operating system neglect, it's clear that Apple values their mobile offerings much more. It's sad, but true.

Because Apple doesn't let anyone else make macOS hardware, we'll never get a GPD device powered by it, even though I'd love something like that. Apple is also raising their prices to ridiculous levels, so meh! There comes a time when you say "enough of this shit!" THe amount of bullshit coming from that company is absurd. The iPad is not a computer replacement unless your computing tasks are very very basic. Sadly, the sheeple that don't pay attention and buy everything that comes from Apple will never get it.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-01-31 18:12:46

I've always gotten sound when starting up the installer and firing up Narrator.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-01-31 18:17:38 (edited by Chris 2019-01-31 18:20:28)

Narrator audio isn't supported on my Mac or GPD Win when installing Windows. That's why I always say do yourself a favor and spend $10 on a USB adapter with audio out jacks. I realize this is a niche case, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-01-31 19:05:44

hmm lol I happen to have an iPhone dark mate. and I no apple would rather look towards mobile for it seems like mobile web browsers have something that purely interests them. I still use narrator on my mac and I've no problem with it. oh and c-cleaner? oh dark lol wow you made me look back for a few minutes and I was so focused on XP, I forgot what I was supposed to do. either way, when it comes to Xbox, oh wow seriously I'd do that any day for entertainment is totally needed most times. and I think paying for things these days might be ok for some, but probably not for other people. for I think that if most people were to be supported so that they could be able to get what they want and have help to insure they get it, that would not only make things better but said person would feel more relaxed. that does need to be sorted though. people should be getting help so that whatever they need, they can have. for struggling is totally wrong. makes life utterly hell believe you me.

2019-02-01 14:25:28

@67 You had me until you used the word sheeple. Fuck I hate that stupid word... So pretentious and  disrespectful.
All those words like sheeple, triggered (yes I see the irony too don't worry)  libbtard, trumptard, feminazi, and the like are just lazy ways to discredit an entire group of people/point of view without considering all of it's facets the way a mature, intelligent person would. The last thing we need right now is even more me VS them outrage bullshit...
Also the fact that three of the words I listed didn't come up as spelling errors is highly depressing.

2019-02-01 15:13:17

@dark
Trying out a mac is totally worth it, in my opinion. Not so much switching to one but Apple has done accessibility just different enough from existing sollutions. Basically, voiceover navigation is nvda object navigation but then a thousand times better. Everything is done with just one way of navigating, in windows 10 in the settings app I conbine screen review with the system focus (system focus = navigating with tab and arrows). But regarding integration, if you want this and are invested in Windows you might as well focus on third-party sollutions instead of changing your operating system (and still needing Windows in the end for some tasks). If you wanted to switch to a mac, the best time for it would be when you had to leave windows xp. Now, you've already learned Windows 10, you've already put in the effort so no point in doing it twice (unless you enjoy it, but it won't really help you do anything faster in practice, just differently).

Roel
golfing in the kitchen

2019-02-01 15:32:54 (edited by jack 2019-02-01 15:33:47)

Well Defender, what do you expect people to say when Voiceover gets crippled and people still buy mac computers, for example? Are people not seeing the signs? Macs are made to last, yes this is true, but Apple will, as they always do, make you upgrade eventually. And then what? I don't even find sheeple that offensive (it's a lot lighter than the other terms Defender described that I cannot stand!
Sometimes the truth hurts just as much as a crippled voiceover could.

2019-02-01 15:37:44 (edited by jack 2019-02-01 15:39:58)

And yes, I'm being pessimistic about this (not saying Voiceover is! going to be crippled), but on the mac, the mac's becoming worse with every new machine and Voiceover is coming right along for the ride. I personally have just gotten tons of confidence boosts with Google and Microsoft, but apart from the fantastic mac hardware I've gotten didly shit for the money I've spent, at least after the third year when 10.14 came out with barely any improvements and I didn't even upgrade.
The mac is fine now, but think of all the web apps that are taking over. And how bloody basic Applescript is. Most of the apps are saved by convenient keyboard shortcuts.
Until I see an Apple Accessibility Trusted Tester initiative (everyone else has this to some degree) I'm not buying anything. This lack of effort is the kind of thing that would make Jobs roll in his grave.

2019-02-01 17:09:22

Hi.
@Jack: Are you saying that the following is possible?
I can go out and buy a Windows laptop running Windows 10. Start it up for the very first time, and use Narrator to configure it, and don't have to deal with any custom inaccessible interface from the company who have made the laptop?
Are you also saying that all those custom made recovery interfaces, for example HP, Acer and other brands are fully accessible, so I can reinstall such laptop with all the drivers and such, without the need to download a copy of Windows and boot up from my own USB drive, and afterwards browse the companys website for all the drivers?
How do I boot up from an other hard drive or USB drive without any speech? There is an accessible workaround for doing that in an accessible way on the mac.
You mention that Narrator works in safe mode. Yeah this is quite impressive. But how do I access the safe mode if I have no speech in this menu, and the company who have made the computer have chosen their own custom boot menu or something simular on the f8 key?
The safe mode on the Mac is only used to run a hardware test. To fix the  data issues on the harddrive, you can repair the disk from the recovery system, which is fully accessible on the Mac. Therefore, I have never used the safe mode on the Mac.
Yes, I know I haven't followed the accessibility development in Windows 10. But if you can answer all those questions and guarantee that this is fully accessible in Windows as well like on the mac, then this is time for me to consider getting a Windows laptop for gaming...

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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