2019-01-14 02:27:58

Pretty interesting Article.
Earlier this year, women became the majority of the workforce for the first time in U.S. history. Most managers are now women too. And for every two men who get a college degree this year, three women will do the same. For years, women’s progress has been cast as a struggle for equality. But what if equality isn’t the end point? What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? A report on the unprecedented role reversal now under way— and its vast cultural consequences
JOHN RITTER
In the 1970s the biologist Ronald Ericsson came up with a way to separate sperm carrying the male-producing Y chromosome from those carrying the X. He sent the two kinds of sperm swimming down a glass tube through ever-thicker albumin barriers. The sperm with the X chromosome had a larger head and a longer tail, and so, he figured, they would get bogged down in the viscous liquid. The sperm with the Y chromosome were leaner and faster and could swim down to the bottom of the tube more efficiently. Ericsson had grown up on a ranch in South Dakota, where he’d developed an Old West, cowboy swagger. The process, he said, was like “cutting out cattle at the gate.” The cattle left flailing behind the gate were of course the X’s, which seemed to please him. He would sometimes demonstrate the process using cartilage from a bull’s penis as a pointer.
In the late 1970s, Ericsson leased the method to clinics around the U.S., calling it the first scientifically proven method for choosing the sex of a child. Instead of a lab coat, he wore cowboy boots and a cowboy hat, and doled out his version of cowboy poetry. (People magazine once suggested a TV miniseries based on his life called Cowboy in the Lab.) The right prescription for life, he would say, was “breakfast at five-thirty, on the saddle by six, no room for Mr. Limp Wrist.” In 1979, he loaned out his ranch as the backdrop for the iconic “Marlboro Country” ads because he believed in the campaign’s central image—“a guy riding on his horse along the river, no bureaucrats, no lawyers,” he recalled when I spoke to him this spring. “He’s the boss.” (The photographers took some 6,500 pictures, a pictorial record of the frontier that Ericsson still takes great pride in.)

Video: In this family feud, Hanna Rosin and her daughter, Noa, debate the superiority of women with Rosin’s son, Jacob, and husband, Slate editor David Plotz
Feminists of the era did not take kindly to Ericsson and his Marlboro Man veneer. To them, the lab cowboy and his sperminator portended a dystopia of mass-produced boys. “You have to be concerned about the future of all women,” Roberta Steinbacher, a nun-turned-social-psychologist, said in a 1984 People profile of Ericsson. “There’s no question that there exists a universal preference for sons.” Steinbacher went on to complain about women becoming locked in as “second-class citizens” while men continued to dominate positions of control and influence. “I think women have to ask themselves, ‘Where does this stop?’” she said. “A lot of us wouldn’t be here right now if these practices had been in effect years ago.”
Ericsson, now 74, laughed when I read him these quotes from his old antagonist. Seldom has it been so easy to prove a dire prediction wrong. In the ’90s, when Ericsson looked into the numbers for the two dozen or so clinics that use his process, he discovered, to his surprise, that couples were requesting more girls than boys, a gap that has persisted, even though Ericsson advertises the method as more effective for producing boys. In some clinics, Ericsson has said, the ratio is now as high as 2 to 1. Polling data on American sex preference is sparse, and does not show a clear preference for girls. But the picture from the doctor’s office unambiguously does. A newer method for sperm selection, called MicroSort, is currently completing Food and Drug Administration clinical trials. The girl requests for that method run at about 75 percent.
Even more unsettling for Ericsson, it has become clear that in choosing the sex of the next generation, he is no longer the boss. “It’s the women who are driving all the decisions,” he says—a change the MicroSort spokespeople I met with also mentioned. At first, Ericsson says, women who called his clinics would apologize and shyly explain that they already had two boys. “Now they just call and [say] outright, ‘I want a girl.’ These mothers look at their lives and think their daughters will have a bright future their mother and grandmother didn’t have, brighter than their sons, even, so why wouldn’t you choose a girl?”
Why wouldn’t you choose a girl? That such a statement should be so casually uttered by an old cowboy like Ericsson—or by anyone, for that matter—is monumental. For nearly as long as civilization has existed, patriarchy—enforced through the rights of the firstborn son—has been the organizing principle, with few exceptions. Men in ancient Greece tied off their left testicle in an effort to produce male heirs; women have killed themselves (or been killed) for failing to bear sons. In her iconic 1949 book, TheSecond Sex, the French feminist Simone de Beauvoir suggested that women so detested their own “feminine condition” that they regarded their newborn daughters with irritation and disgust. Now the centuries-old preference for sons is eroding—or even reversing. “Women of our generation want daughters precisely because we like who we are,” breezes one woman in Cookie magazine. Even Ericsson, the stubborn old goat, can sigh and mark the passing of an era. “Did male dominance exist? Of course it existed. But it seems to be gone now. And the era of the firstborn son is totally gone.”
Ericsson’s extended family is as good an illustration of the rapidly shifting landscape as any other. His 26-year-old granddaughter—“tall, slender, brighter than hell, with a take-no-prisoners personality”—is a biochemist and works on genetic sequencing. His niece studied civil engineering at the University of Southern California. His grandsons, he says, are bright and handsome, but in school “their eyes glaze over. I have to tell ’em: ‘Just don’t screw up and crash your pickup truck and get some girl pregnant and ruin your life.’” Recently Ericsson joked with the old boys at his elementary-school reunion that he was going to have a sex-change operation. “Women live longer than men. They do better in this economy. More of ’em graduate from college. They go into space and do everything men do, and sometimes they do it a whole lot better. I mean, hell, get out of the way—these females are going to leave us males in the dust.”
Man has been the dominant sex since, well, the dawn of mankind. But for the first time in human history, that is changing—and with shocking speed. Cultural and economic changes always reinforce each other. And the global economy is evolving in a way that is eroding the historical preference for male children, worldwide. Over several centuries, South Korea, for instance, constructed one of the most rigid patriarchal societies in the world. Many wives who failed to produce male heirs were abused and treated as domestic servants; some families prayed to spirits to kill off girl children. Then, in the 1970s and ’80s, the government embraced an industrial revolution and encouraged women to enter the labor force. Women moved to the city and went to college. They advanced rapidly, from industrial jobs to clerical jobs to professional work. The traditional order began to crumble soon after. In 1990, the country’s laws were revised so that women could keep custody of their children after a divorce and inherit property. In 2005, the court ruled that women could register children under their own names. As recently as 1985, about half of all women in a national survey said they “must have a son.” That percentage fell slowly until 1991 and then plummeted to just over 15 percent by 2003. Male preference in South Korea “is over,” says Monica Das Gupta, a demographer and Asia expert at the World Bank. “It happened so fast. It’s hard to believe it, but it is.” The same shift is now beginning in other rapidly industrializing countries such as India and China.
Up to a point, the reasons behind this shift are obvious. As thinking and communicating have come to eclipse physical strength and stamina as the keys to economic success, those societies that take advantage of the talents of all their adults, not just half of them, have pulled away from the rest. And because geopolitics and global culture are, ultimately, Darwinian, other societies either follow suit or end up marginalized. In 2006, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development devised the Gender, Institutions and Development Database, which measures the economic and political power of women in 162 countries. With few exceptions, the greater the power of women, the greater the country’s economic success. Aid agencies have started to recognize this relationship and have pushed to institute political quotas in about 100 countries, essentially forcing women into power in an effort to improve those countries’ fortunes. In some war-torn states, women are stepping in as a sort of maternal rescue team. Liberia’s president, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, portrayed her country as a sick child in need of her care during her campaign five years ago. Postgenocide Rwanda elected to heal itself by becoming the first country with a majority of women in parliament.
In feminist circles, these social, political, and economic changes are always cast as a slow, arduous form of catch-up in a continuing struggle for female equality. But in the U.S., the world’s most advanced economy, something much more remarkable seems to be happening. American parents are beginning to choose to have girls over boys. As they imagine the pride of watching a child grow and develop and succeed as an adult, it is more often a girl that they see in their mind’s eye.
What if the modern, postindustrial economy is simply more congenial to women than to men? For a long time, evolutionary psychologists have claimed that we are all imprinted with adaptive imperatives from a distant past: men are faster and stronger and hardwired to fight for scarce resources, and that shows up now as a drive to win on Wall Street; women are programmed to find good providers and to care for their offspring, and that is manifested in more- nurturing and more-flexible behavior, ordaining them to domesticity. This kind of thinking frames our sense of the natural order. But what if men and women were fulfilling not biological imperatives but social roles, based on what was more efficient throughout a long era of human history? What if that era has now come to an end? More to the point, what if the economics of the new era are better suited to women?
Once you open your eyes to this possibility, the evidence is all around you. It can be found, most immediately, in the wreckage of the Great Recession, in which three-quarters of the 8 million jobs lost were lost by men. The worst-hit industries were overwhelmingly male and deeply identified with macho: construction, manufacturing, high finance. Some of these jobs will come back, but the overall pattern of dislocation is neither temporary nor random. The recession merely revealed—and accelerated—a profound economic shift that has been going on for at least 30 years, and in some respects even longer.
Earlier this year, for the first time in American history, the balance of the workforce tipped toward women, who now hold a majority of the nation’s jobs. The working class, which has long defined our notions of masculinity, is slowly turning into a matriarchy, with men increasingly absent from the home and women making all the decisions. Women dominate today’s colleges and professional schools—for every two men who will receive a B.A. this year, three women will do the same. Of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most in the next decade in the U.S., all but two are occupied primarily by women. Indeed, the U.S. economy is in some ways becoming a kind of traveling sisterhood: upper-class women leave home and enter the workforce, creating domestic jobs for other women to fill.
The postindustrial economy is indifferent to men’s size and strength. The attributes that are most valuable today—social intelligence, open communication, the ability to sit still and focus—are, at a minimum, not predominantly male. In fact, the opposite may be true. Women in poor parts of India are learning English faster than men to meet the demands of new global call centers. Women own more than 40 percent of private businesses in China, where a red Ferrari is the new status symbol for female entrepreneurs. Last year, Iceland elected Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir, the world’s first openly lesbian head of state, who campaigned explicitly against the male elite she claimed had destroyed the nation’s banking system, and who vowed to end the “age of testosterone.”
Yes, the U.S. still has a wage gap, one that can be convincingly explained—at least in part—by discrimination. Yes, women still do most of the child care. And yes, the upper reaches of society are still dominated by men. But given the power of the forces pushing at the economy, this setup feels like the last gasp of a dying age rather than the permanent establishment. Dozens of college women I interviewed for this story assumed that they very well might be the ones working while their husbands stayed at home, either looking for work or minding the children. Guys, one senior remarked to me, “are the new ball and chain.” It may be happening slowly and unevenly, but it’s unmistakably happening: in the long view, the modern economy is becoming a place where women hold the cards.
In his final book, The Bachelors’ Ball, published in 2007, the sociologist Pierre Bourdieu describes the changing gender dynamics of Béarn, the region in southwestern France where he grew up. The eldest sons once held the privileges of patrimonial loyalty and filial inheritance in Béarn. But over the decades, changing economic forces turned those privileges into curses. Although the land no longer produced the impressive income it once had, the men felt obligated to tend it. Meanwhile, modern women shunned farm life, lured away by jobs and adventure in the city. They occasionally returned for the traditional balls, but the men who awaited them had lost their prestige and become unmarriageable. This is the image that keeps recurring to me, one that Bourdieu describes in his book: at the bachelors’ ball, the men, self-conscious about their diminished status, stand stiffly, their hands by their sides, as the women twirl away.
The role reversal that’s under way between American men and women shows up most obviously and painfully in the working class. In recent years, male support groups have sprung up throughout the Rust Belt and in other places where the postindustrial economy has turned traditional family roles upside down. Some groups help men cope with unemployment, and others help them reconnect with their alienated families. Mustafaa El-Scari, a teacher and social worker, leads some of these groups in Kansas City. El-Scari has studied the sociology of men and boys set adrift, and he considers it his special gift to get them to open up and reflect on their new condition. The day I visited one of his classes, earlier this year, he was facing a particularly resistant crowd.
None of the 30 or so men sitting in a classroom at a downtown Kansas City school have come for voluntary adult enrichment. Having failed to pay their child support, they were given the choice by a judge to go to jail or attend a weekly class on fathering, which to them seemed the better deal. This week’s lesson, from a workbook called Quenching the Father Thirst, was supposed to involve writing a letter to a hypothetical estranged 14-year-old daughter named Crystal, whose father left her when she was a baby. But El-Scari has his own idea about how to get through to this barely awake, skeptical crew, and letters to Crystal have nothing to do with it.
Like them, he explains, he grew up watching Bill Cosby living behind his metaphorical “white picket fence”—one man, one woman, and a bunch of happy kids. “Well, that check bounced a long time ago,” he says. “Let’s see,” he continues, reading from a worksheet. What are the four kinds of paternal authority? Moral, emotional, social, and physical. “But you ain’t none of those in that house. All you are is a paycheck, and now you ain’t even that. And if you try to exercise your authority, she’ll call 911. How does that make you feel? You’re supposed to be the authority, and she says, ‘Get out of the house, bitch.’ She’s calling you ‘bitch’!”
The men are black and white, their ages ranging from about 20 to 40. A couple look like they might have spent a night or two on the streets, but the rest look like they work, or used to. Now they have put down their sodas, and El-Scari has their attention, so he gets a little more philosophical. “Who’s doing what?” he asks them. “What is our role? Everyone’s telling us we’re supposed to be the head of a nuclear family, so you feel like you got robbed. It’s toxic, and poisonous, and it’s setting us up for failure.” He writes on the board: $85,000. “This is her salary.” Then: $12,000. “This is your salary. Who’s the damn man? Who’s the man now?” A murmur rises. “That’s right. She’s the man.”
Judging by the men I spoke with afterward, El-Scari seemed to have pegged his audience perfectly. Darren Henderson was making $33 an hour laying sheet metal, until the real-estate crisis hit and he lost his job. Then he lost his duplex—“there’s my little piece of the American dream”—then his car. And then he fell behind on his child-support payments. “They make it like I’m just sitting around,” he said, “but I’m not.” As proof of his efforts, he took out a new commercial driver’s permit and a bartending license, and then threw them down on the ground like jokers, for all the use they’d been. His daughter’s mother had a $50,000-a-year job and was getting her master’s degree in social work. He’d just signed up for food stamps, which is just about the only social-welfare program a man can easily access. Recently she’d seen him waiting at the bus stop. “Looked me in the eye,” he recalled, “and just drove on by.”
The men in that room, almost without exception, were casualties of the end of the manufacturing era. Most of them had continued to work with their hands even as demand for manual labor was declining. Since 2000, manufacturing has lost almost 6 million jobs, more than a third of its total workforce, and has taken in few young workers. The housing bubble masked this new reality for a while, creating work in construction and related industries. Many of the men I spoke with had worked as electricians or builders; one had been a successful real-estate agent. Now those jobs are gone too. Henderson spent his days shuttling between unemployment offices and job interviews, wondering what his daughter might be doing at any given moment. In 1950, roughly one in 20 men of prime working age, like Henderson, was not working; today that ratio is about one in five, the highest ever recorded.
Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else—nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation. Many of the new jobs, says Heather Boushey of the Center for American Progress, “replace the things that women used to do in the home for free.” None is especially high-paying. But the steady accumulation of these jobs adds up to an economy that, for the working class, has become more amenable to women than to men.
The list of growing jobs is heavy on nurturing professions, in which women, ironically, seem to benefit from old stereotypes and habits. Theoretically, there is no reason men should not be qualified. But they have proved remarkably unable to adapt. Over the course of the past century, feminism has pushed women to do things once considered against their nature—first enter the workforce as singles, then continue to work while married, then work even with small children at home. Many professions that started out as the province of men are now filled mostly with women—secretary and teacher come to mind. Yet I’m not aware of any that have gone the opposite way. Nursing schools have tried hard to recruit men in the past few years, with minimal success. Teaching schools, eager to recruit male role models, are having a similarly hard time. The range of acceptable masculine roles has changed comparatively little, and has perhaps even narrowed as men have shied away from some careers women have entered. As Jessica Grose wrote inSlate, men seem “fixed in cultural aspic.” And with each passing day, they lag further behind.
As we recover from the Great Recession, some traditionally male jobs will return—men are almost always harder-hit than women in economic downturns because construction and manufacturing are more cyclical than service industries—but that won’t change the long-term trend. When we look back on this period, argues Jamie Ladge, a business professor at Northeastern University, we will see it as a “turning point for women in the workforce.”
The economic and cultural power shift from men to women would be hugely significant even if it never extended beyond working-class America. But women are also starting to dominate middle management, and a surprising number of professional careers as well. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, women now hold 51.4 percent of managerial and professional jobs—up from 26.1 percent in 1980. They make up 54 percent of all accountants and hold about half of all banking and insurance jobs. About a third of America’s physicians are now women, as are 45 percent of associates in law firms—and both those percentages are rising fast. A white-collar economy values raw intellectual horsepower, which men and women have in equal amounts. It also requires communication skills and social intelligence, areas in which women, according to many studies, have a slight edge. Perhaps most important—for better or worse—it increasingly requires formal education credentials, which women are more prone to acquire, particularly early in adulthood. Just about the only professions in which women still make up a relatively small minority of newly minted workers are engineering and those calling on a hard-science background, and even in those areas, women have made strong gains since the 1970s.
Office work has been steadily adapting to women—and in turn being reshaped by them—for 30 years or more. Joel Garreau picks up on this phenomenon in his 1991 book, Edge City, which explores the rise of suburbs that are home to giant swaths of office space along with the usual houses and malls. Companies began moving out of the city in search not only of lower rent but also of the “best educated, most conscientious, most stable workers.” They found their brightest prospects among “underemployed females living in middle-class communities on the fringe of the old urban areas.” As Garreau chronicles the rise of suburban office parks, he places special emphasis on 1978, the peak year for women entering the workforce. When brawn was off the list of job requirements, women often measured up better than men. They were smart, dutiful, and, as long as employers could make the jobs more convenient for them, more reliable. The 1999 movie Office Space was maybe the first to capture how alien and dispiriting the office park can be for men. Disgusted by their jobs and their boss, Peter and his two friends embezzle money and start sleeping through their alarm clocks. At the movie’s end, a male co-worker burns down the office park, and Peter abandons desk work for a job in construction.
Near the top of the jobs pyramid, of course, the upward march of women stalls. Prominent female CEOs, past and present, are so rare that they count as minor celebrities, and most of us can tick off their names just from occasionally reading the business pages: Meg Whitman at eBay, Carly Fiorina at Hewlett-Packard, Anne Mulcahy and Ursula Burns at Xerox, Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo; the accomplishment is considered so extraordinary that Whitman and Fiorina are using it as the basis for political campaigns. Only 3 percent of Fortune 500 CEOs are women, and the number has never risen much above that.
But even the way this issue is now framed reveals that men’s hold on power in elite circles may be loosening. In business circles, the lack of women at the top is described as a “brain drain” and a crisis of “talent retention.” And while female CEOs may be rare in America’s largest companies, they are highly prized: last year, they outearned their male counterparts by 43 percent, on average, and received bigger raises.
Even around the delicate question of working mothers, the terms of the conversation are shifting. Last year, in a story about breast-feeding, I complained about how the early years of child rearing keep women out of power positions. But the term mommy track is slowly morphing into the gender-neutral flex time, reflecting changes in the workforce. For recent college graduates of both sexes, flexible arrangements are at the top of the list of workplace demands, according to a study published last year in the Harvard Business Review. And companies eager to attract and retain talented workers and managers are responding. The consulting firm Deloitte, for instance, started what’s now considered the model program, called Mass Career Customization, which allows employees to adjust their hours depending on their life stage. The program, Deloitte’s Web site explains, solves “a complex issue—one that can no longer be classified as a woman’s issue.”
“Women are knocking on the door of leadership at the very moment when their talents are especially well matched with the requirements of the day,” writes David Gergen in the introduction to Enlightened Power: How Women Are Transforming the Practice of Leadership. What are these talents? Once it was thought that leaders should be aggressive and competitive, and that men are naturally more of both. But psychological research has complicated this picture. In lab studies that simulate negotiations, men and women are just about equally assertive and competitive, with slight variations. Men tend to assert themselves in a controlling manner, while women tend to take into account the rights of others, but both styles are equally effective, write the psychologists Alice Eagly and Linda Carli, in their 2007 book, Through the Labyrinth.
Over the years, researchers have sometimes exaggerated these differences and described the particular talents of women in crude gender stereotypes: women as more empathetic, as better consensus-seekers and better lateral thinkers; women as bringing a superior moral sensibility to bear on a cutthroat business world. In the ’90s, this field of feminist business theory seemed to be forcing the point. But after the latest financial crisis, these ideas have more resonance. Researchers have started looking into the relationship between testosterone and excessive risk, and wondering if groups of men, in some basic hormonal way, spur each other to make reckless decisions. The picture emerging is a mirror image of the traditional gender map: men and markets on the side of the irrational and overemotional, and women on the side of the cool and levelheaded.
We don’t yet know with certainty whether testosterone strongly influences business decision-making. But the perception of the ideal business leader is starting to shift. The old model of command and control, with one leader holding all the decision-making power, is considered hidebound. The new model is sometimes called “post-heroic,” or “transformational” in the words of the historian and leadership expert James MacGregor Burns. The aim is to behave like a good coach, and channel your charisma to motivate others to be hardworking and creative. The model is not explicitly defined as feminist, but it echoes literature about male-female differences. A program at Columbia Business School, for example, teaches sensitive leadership and social intelligence, including better reading of facial expressions and body language. “We never explicitly say, ‘Develop your feminine side,’ but it’s clear that’s what we’re advocating,” says Jamie Ladge.
A 2008 study attempted to quantify the effect of this more-feminine management style. Researchers at Columbia Business School and the University of Maryland analyzed data on the top 1,500 U.S. companies from 1992 to 2006 to determine the relationship between firm performance and female participation in senior management. Firms that had women in top positions performed better, and this was especially true if the firm pursued what the researchers called an “innovation intensive strategy,” in which, they argued, “creativity and collaboration may be especially important”—an apt description of the future economy.
It could be that women boost corporate performance, or it could be that better-performing firms have the luxury of recruiting and keeping high-potential women. But the association is clear: innovative, successful firms are the ones that promote women. The same Columbia-Maryland study ranked America’s industries by the proportion of firms that employed female executives, and the bottom of the list reads like the ghosts of the economy past: shipbuilding, real estate, coal, steelworks, machinery.
If you really want to see where the world is headed, of course, looking at the current workforce can get you only so far. To see the future—of the workforce, the economy, and the culture—you need to spend some time at America’s colleges and professional schools, where a quiet revolution is under way. More than ever, college is the gateway to economic success, a necessary precondition for moving into the upper-middle class—and increasingly even the middle class. It’s this broad, striving middle class that defines our society. And demographically, we can see with absolute clarity that in the coming decades the middle class will be dominated by women.
We’ve all heard about the collegiate gender gap. But the implications of that gap have not yet been fully digested. Women now earn 60 percent of master’s degrees, about half of all law and medical degrees, and 42 percent of all M.B.A.s. Most important, women earn almost 60 percent of all bachelor’s degrees—the minimum requirement, in most cases, for an affluent life. In a stark reversal since the 1970s, men are now more likely than women to hold only a high-school diploma. “One would think that if men were acting in a rational way, they would be getting the education they need to get along out there,” says Tom Mortenson, a senior scholar at the Pell Institute for the Study of Opportunity in Higher Education. “But they are just failing to adapt.”
This spring, I visited a few schools around Kansas City to get a feel for the gender dynamics of higher education. I started at the downtown campus of Metropolitan Community College. Metropolitan is the kind of place where people go to learn practical job skills and keep current with the changing economy, and as in most community colleges these days, men were conspicuously absent. One afternoon, in the basement cafeteria of a nearly windowless brick building, several women were trying to keep their eyes on their biology textbook and ignore the text messages from their babysitters. Another crew was outside the ladies’ room, braiding each other’s hair. One woman, still in her medical-assistant scrubs, looked like she was about to fall asleep in the elevator between the first and fourth floors.
When Bernard Franklin took over as campus president in 2005, he looked around and told his staff early on that their new priority was to “recruit more boys.” He set up mentoring programs and men-only study groups and student associations. He made a special effort to bond with male students, who liked to call him “Suit.” “It upset some of my feminists,” he recalls. Yet, a few years later, the tidal wave of women continues to wash through the school—they now make up about 70 percent of its students. They come to train to be nurses and teachers—African American women, usually a few years older than traditional college students, and lately, working-class white women from the suburbs seeking a cheap way to earn a credential. As for the men? Well, little has changed. “I recall one guy who was really smart,” one of the school’s counselors told me. “But he was reading at a sixth-grade level and felt embarrassed in front of the women. He had to hide his books from his friends, who would tease him when he studied. Then came the excuses. ‘It’s spring, gotta play ball.’ ‘It’s winter, too cold.’ He didn’t make it.”
It makes some economic sense that women attend community colleges—and in fact, all colleges—in greater numbers than men. Women ages 25 to 34 with only a high-school diploma currently have a median income of $25,474, while men in the same position earn $32,469. But it makes sense only up to a point. The well-paid lifetime union job has been disappearing for at least 30 years. Kansas City, for example, has shifted from steel manufacturing to pharmaceuticals and information technologies. “The economy isn’t as friendly to men as it once was,” says Jacqueline King, of the American Council on Education. “You would think men and women would go to these colleges at the same rate.” But they don’t.
In 2005, King’s group conducted a survey of lower-income adults in college. Men, it turned out, had a harder time committing to school, even when they desperately needed to retool. They tended to start out behind academically, and many felt intimidated by the schoolwork. They reported feeling isolated and were much worse at seeking out fellow students, study groups, or counselors to help them adjust. Mothers going back to school described themselves as good role models for their children. Fathers worried that they were abrogating their responsibilities as breadwinner.
The student gender gap started to feel like a crisis to some people in higher-education circles in the mid-2000s, when it began showing up not just in community and liberal-arts colleges but in the flagship public universities—the UCs and the SUNYs and the UNCs. Like many of those schools, the University of Missouri at Kansas City, a full research university with more than 13,000 students, is now tipping toward 60 percent women, a level many admissions officers worry could permanently shift the atmosphere and reputation of a school. In February, I visited with Ashley Burress, UMKC’s student-body president. (The other three student-government officers this school year were also women.) Burress, a cute, short, African American 24-year-old grad student who is getting a doctor-of-pharmacy degree, had many of the same complaints I heard from other young women. Guys high-five each other when they get a C, while girls beat themselves up over a B-minus. Guys play video games in each other’s rooms, while girls crowd the study hall. Girls get their degrees with no drama, while guys seem always in danger of drifting away. “In 2012, I will be Dr. Burress,” she said. “Will I have to deal with guys who don’t even have a bachelor’s degree? I would like to date, but I’m putting myself in a really small pool.”
UMKC is a working- and middle-class school—the kind of place where traditional sex roles might not be anathema. Yet as I talked to students this spring, I realized how much the basic expectations for men and women had shifted. Many of the women’s mothers had established their careers later in life, sometimes after a divorce, and they had urged their daughters to get to their own careers more quickly. They would be a campus of Tracy Flicks, except that they seemed neither especially brittle nor secretly falling apart.
Victoria, Michelle, and Erin are sorority sisters. Victoria’s mom is a part-time bartender at a hotel. Victoria is a biology major and wants to be a surgeon; soon she’ll apply to a bunch of medical schools. She doesn’t want kids for a while, because she knows she’ll “be at the hospital, like, 100 hours a week,” and when she does have kids, well, she’ll “be the hotshot surgeon, and he”—a nameless he—“will be at home playing with the kiddies.”
Michelle, a self-described “perfectionist,” also has her life mapped out. She’s a psychology major and wants to be a family therapist. After college, she will apply to grad school and look for internships. She is well aware of the career-counseling resources on campus. And her fiancé?
Michelle: He’s changed majors, like, 16 times. Last week he wanted to be a dentist. This week it’s environmental science.

Erin: Did he switch again this week? When you guys have kids, he’ll definitely stay home. Seriously, what does he want to do?

Michelle: It depends on the day of the week. Remember last year? It was bio. It really is a joke. But it’s not. It’s funny, but it’s not.
Among traditional college students from the highest-income families, the gender gap pretty much disappears. But the story is not so simple. Wealthier students tend to go to elite private schools, and elite private schools live by their own rules. Quietly, they’ve been opening up a new frontier in affirmative action, with boys playing the role of the underprivileged applicants needing an extra boost. In 2003, a study by the economists Sandy Baum and Eban Goodstein found that among selective liberal-arts schools, being male raises the chance of college acceptance by 6.5 to 9 percentage points. Now the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights has voted to investigate what some academics have described as the “open secret” that private schools “are discriminating in admissions in order to maintain what they regard as an appropriate gender balance.”
Jennifer Delahunty, the dean of admissions and financial aid at Kenyon College, in Ohio, let this secret out in a 2006 New York Times op-ed. Gender balance, she wrote back then, is the elephant in the room. And today, she told me, the problem hasn’t gone away. A typical female applicant, she said, manages the process herself—lines up the interviews, sets up a campus visit, requests a visit with faculty members. But the college has seen more than one male applicant “sit back on the couch, sometimes with their eyes closed, while their mom tells them where to go and what to do. Sometimes we say, ‘What a nice essay his mom wrote,’” she said, in that funny-but-not vein.
To avoid crossing the dreaded 60 percent threshold, admissions officers have created a language to explain away the boys’ deficits: “Brain hasn’t kicked in yet.” “Slow to cook.” “Hasn’t quite peaked.” “Holistic picture.” At times Delahunty has become so worried about “overeducated females” and “undereducated males” that she jokes she is getting conspiratorial. She once called her sister, a pediatrician, to vet her latest theory: “Maybe these boys are genetically like canaries in a coal mine, absorbing so many toxins and bad things in the environment that their DNA is shifting. Maybe they’re like those frogs—they’re more vulnerable or something, so they’ve gotten deformed.”
Clearly, some percentage of boys are just temperamentally unsuited to college, at least at age 18 or 20, but without it, they have a harder time finding their place these days. “Forty years ago, 30 years ago, if you were one of the fairly constant fraction of boys who wasn’t ready to learn in high school, there were ways for you to enter the mainstream economy,” says Henry Farber, an economist at Princeton. “When you woke up, there were jobs. There were good industrial jobs, so you could have a good industrial, blue-collar career. Now those jobs are gone.”
Since the 1980s, as women have flooded colleges, male enrollment has grown far more slowly. And the disparities start before college. Throughout the ’90s, various authors and researchers agonized over why boys seemed to be failing at every level of education, from elementary school on up, and identified various culprits: a misguided feminism that treated normal boys as incipient harassers (Christina Hoff Sommers); different brain chemistry (Michael Gurian); a demanding, verbally focused curriculum that ignored boys’ interests (Richard Whitmire). But again, it’s not all that clear that boys have become more dysfunctional—or have changed in any way. What’s clear is that schools, like the economy, now value the self-control, focus, and verbal aptitude that seem to come more easily to young girls.
Researchers have suggested any number of solutions. A movement is growing for more all-boys schools and classes, and for respecting the individual learning styles of boys. Some people think that boys should be able to walk around in class, or take more time on tests, or have tests and books that cater to their interests. In their desperation to reach out to boys, some colleges have formed football teams and started engineering programs. Most of these special accommodations sound very much like the kind of affirmative action proposed for women over the years—which in itself is an alarming flip.
Whether boys have changed or not, we are well past the time to start trying some experiments. It is fabulous to see girls and young women poised for success in the coming years. But allowing generations of boys to grow up feeling rootless and obsolete is not a recipe for a peaceful future. Men have few natural support groups and little access to social welfare; the men’s-rights groups that do exist in the U.S. are taking on an angry, antiwoman edge. Marriages fall apart or never happen at all, and children are raised with no fathers. Far from being celebrated, women’s rising power is perceived as a threat.
What would a society in which women are on top look like? We already have an inkling. This is the first time that the cohort of Americans ages 30 to 44 has more college-educated women than college-educated men, and the effects are upsetting the traditional Cleaver-family dynamics. In 1970, women contributed 2 to 6 percent of the family income. Now the typical working wife brings home 42.2 percent, and four in 10 mothers—many of them single mothers—are the primary breadwinners in their families. The whole question of whether mothers should work is moot, argues Heather Boushey of the Center for American Progress, “because they just do. This idealized family—he works, she stays home—hardly exists anymore.”
The terms of marriage have changed radically since 1970. Typically, women’s income has been the main factor in determining whether a family moves up the class ladder or stays stagnant. And increasing numbers of women—unable to find men with a similar income and education—are forgoing marriage altogether. In 1970, 84 percent of women ages 30 to 44 were married; now 60 percent are. In 2007, among American women without a high-school diploma, 43 percent were married. And yet, for all the hand-wringing over the lonely spinster, the real loser in society—the only one to have made just slight financial gains since the 1970s—is the single man, whether poor or rich, college-educated or not. Hens rejoice; it’s the bachelor party that’s over.
The sociologist Kathryn Edin spent five years talking with low-income mothers in the inner suburbs of Philadelphia. Many of these neighborhoods, she found, had turned into matriarchies, with women making all the decisions and dictating what the men should and should not do. “I think something feminists have missed,” Edin told me, “is how much power women have” when they’re not bound by marriage. The women, she explained, “make every important decision”—whether to have a baby, how to raise it, where to live. “It’s definitely ‘my way or the highway,’” she said. “Thirty years ago, cultural norms were such that the fathers might have said, ‘Great, catch me if you can.’ Now they are desperate to father, but they are pessimistic about whether they can meet her expectations.” The women don’t want them as husbands, and they have no steady income to provide. So what do they have?
“Nothing,” Edin says. “They have nothing. The men were just annihilated in the recession of the ’90s, and things never got better. Now it’s just awful.”
The situation today is not, as Edin likes to say, a “feminist nirvana.” The phenomenon of children being born to unmarried parents “has spread to barrios and trailer parks and rural areas and small towns,” Edin says, and it is creeping up the class ladder. After staying steady for a while, the portion of American children born to unmarried parents jumped to 40 percent in the past few years. Many of their mothers are struggling financially; the most successful are working and going to school and hustling to feed the children, and then falling asleep in the elevator of the community college.
Still, they are in charge. “The family changes over the past four decades have been bad for men and bad for kids, but it’s not clear they are bad for women,” says W. Bradford Wilcox, the head of the University of Virginia’s National Marriage Project.
Over the years, researchers have proposed different theories to explain the erosion of marriage in the lower classes: the rise of welfare, or the disappearance of work and thus of marriageable men. But Edin thinks the most compelling theory is that marriage has disappeared because women are setting the terms—and setting them too high for the men around them to reach. “I want that white-picket-fence dream,” one woman told Edin, and the men she knew just didn’t measure up, so she had become her own one-woman mother/father/nurturer/provider. The whole country’s future could look much as the present does for many lower-class African Americans: the mothers pull themselves up, but the men don’t follow. First-generation college-educated white women may join their black counterparts in a new kind of middle class, where marriage is increasingly rare.
As the traditional order has been upended, signs of the profound disruption have popped up in odd places. Japan is in a national panic over the rise of the “herbivores,” the cohort of young men who are rejecting the hard-drinking salaryman life of their fathers and are instead gardening, organizing dessert parties, acting cartoonishly feminine, and declining to have sex. The generational young-women counterparts are known in Japan as the “carnivores,” or sometimes the “hunters.”
American pop culture keeps producing endless variations on the omega male, who ranks even below the beta in the wolf pack. This often-unemployed, romantically challenged loser can show up as a perpetual adolescent (in Judd Apatow’s Knocked Up or The 40-Year-Old Virgin), or a charmless misanthrope (in Noah Baumbach’s Greenberg), or a happy couch potato (in a Bud Light commercial). He can be sweet, bitter, nostalgic, or cynical, but he cannot figure out how to be a man. “We call each other ‘man,’” says Ben Stiller’s character in Greenberg, “but it’s a joke. It’s like imitating other people.” The American male novelist, meanwhile, has lost his mojo and entirely given up on sex as a way for his characters to assert macho dominance, Katie Roiphe explains in her essay “The Naked and the Conflicted.” Instead, she writes, “the current sexual style is more childlike; innocence is more fashionable than virility, the cuddle preferable to sex.”
At the same time, a new kind of alpha female has appeared, stirring up anxiety and, occasionally, fear. The cougar trope started out as a joke about desperate older women. Now it’s gone mainstream, even in Hollywood, home to the 50-something producer with a starlet on his arm. Susan Sarandon and Demi Moore have boy toys, and Aaron Johnson, the 19-year-old star of Kick-Ass, is a proud boy toy for a woman 24 years his senior. The New York Times columnist Gail Collins recently wrote that the cougar phenomenon is beginning to look like it’s not about desperate women at all but about “desperate young American men who are latching on to an older woman who’s a good earner.” Up in the Air, a movie set against the backdrop of recession-era layoffs, hammers home its point about the shattered ego of the American man. A character played by George Clooney is called too old to be attractive by his younger female colleague and is later rejected by an older woman whom he falls in love with after she sleeps with him—and who turns out to be married. George Clooney! If the sexiest man alive can get twice rejected (and sexually played) in a movie, what hope is there for anyone else? The message to American men is summarized by the title of a recent offering from the romantic-comedy mill: She’s Out of My League.
In fact, the more women dominate, the more they behave, fittingly, like the dominant sex. Rates of violence committed by middle-aged women have skyrocketed since the 1980s, and no one knows why. High-profile female killers have been showing up regularly in the news: Amy Bishop, the homicidal Alabama professor; Jihad Jane and her sidekick, Jihad Jamie; the latest generation of Black Widows, responsible for suicide bombings in Russia. In Roman Polanski’s The Ghost Writer, the traditional political wife is rewritten as a cold-blooded killer at the heart of an evil conspiracy. In her recent video Telephone, Lady Gaga, with her infallible radar for the cultural edge, rewrites Thelma and Louise as a story not about elusive female empowerment but about sheer, ruthless power. Instead of killing themselves, she and her girlfriend (played by Beyoncé) kill a bad boyfriend and random others in a homicidal spree and then escape in their yellow pickup truck, Gaga bragging, “We did it, Honey B.”
The Marlboro Man, meanwhile, master of wild beast and wild country, seems too far-fetched and preposterous even for advertising. His modern equivalents are the stunted men in the Dodge Charger ad that ran during this year’s Super Bowl in February. Of all the days in the year, one might think, Super Bowl Sunday should be the one most dedicated to the cinematic celebration of macho. The men in Super Bowl ads should be throwing balls and racing motorcycles and doing whatever it is men imagine they could do all day if only women were not around to restrain them.
Instead, four men stare into the camera, unsmiling, not moving except for tiny blinks and sways. They look like they’ve been tranquilized, like they can barely hold themselves up against the breeze. Their lips do not move, but a voice-over explains their predicament—how they’ve been beaten silent by the demands of tedious employers and enviro-fascists and women. Especially women. “I will put the seat down, I will separate the recycling, I will carry your lip balm.” This last one—lip balm—is expressed with the mildest spit of emotion, the only hint of the suppressed rage against the dominatrix. Then the commercial abruptly cuts to the fantasy, a Dodge Charger vrooming toward the camera punctuated by bold all caps: MAN’S LAST STAND. But the motto is unconvincing. After that display of muteness and passivity, you can only imagine a woman—one with shiny lips—steering the beast.
We want to hear what you think about this article. Submit a letter to the editor or write to [email protected].

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2019-01-14 03:26:13 (edited by flackers 2019-01-14 03:27:45)

Just goes to show, if something's snappily written and has interesting content, there's no such thing as a too-long post. As for the article itself: I'm not sure what to make of it. It was fascinating, and doubtless has truth in it, but I don't know how accurate the research is. It was full of imagery that seemed pretty heavily skewed in favour of the researcher's theory, so although some of the facts may have truth, the overall picture seemed a bit over-egged. Or maybe it's just that my male ego has just had a bit of a bruising and doesn't like it smile.

2019-01-14 04:21:27 (edited by Ethin 2019-01-14 04:22:19)

This article seems overly focused on women. This is not "the end of men", as you put it. Just goes to show that people don't analyze when they read "research papers" like these. And, honestly, I don't really get the point of it. It doesn't really show anything.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2019-01-14 09:11:50

I'm not sure how to respond to this exactly. I don't trust the article 100%, it seems a bit skewed towards the author's perspective. I am glad women are doing well for themselves, and yeah I get the whole thing about men failing to adapt could be an issue for us. I think a lot of it has to do with the sort of down hill slippage of parents to be honest. It actually worries me when some of these millennials have kids, or when the ones that already do have to start teaching their kids life lessons.

I could totally see it swinging that way though, especially because all the craziness coming from the 3rd wave feminist groups. It seems like someone infected the planet with a virus that just made logical thought impossible. The amount of stuff going on lately has left me wondering if I'm  the only sane one left more often than is normal for me. I want women to be equal, I think they should, and deserve to be equal to men. But feminism, at least in its more extreme quarters has stopped being about equality, and started taking on a more dark role, that of grabbing power, and seeing who can wield the most power the longest.

Let's also not forget the me too movement, and believe women. It is so easy right now for a woman to ruin a man's life right now with three little words. They'll do it too, we've seen evidence. This is why I'm of the opinion that knowingly falsifying claims of the wrong doing of another should net you the punishment of the crime they were accused of. Women tend (and yes I do say tend, I'm not making a generalization) to be more manipulative. Again, I'm not saying that all of them are, and that men aren't, but going off of personal experience, I know this to be true. Even benignly so, they can be manipulative, its just how they are. I know that's probably a controversial opinion, but it's mine mine and backed up with plenty of experience. Now, take this natural aptitude for mind games and manipulation, and getting a man fired and basically ruining his professional life is not that far of a stretch for someone who's frustrated, or for a narcissistic woman trying to get what she wants.

Think about the way it is now. Growing up, our whole lives, we're told we're special from our parents. You do anything and they want to give you a trophy or medal no matter how well or poorly you performed. Everyone is a winner. What's the natural progression of that mentality? It starts from having a good feeling when you're rewarded. You feel accomplished, and even though you might not have done well, or as well as some others, you get this rush. It feels good to win, everybody wants to win, right? Here's an unfortunate truth, if there are winners, there have to be losers. If there are rich people, there have to be poor people. If there's an up, there has to be a down. See where I'm headed with this? Not only can everyone not be a winner, but some people are just losers, that's the truth, and sheltering or shielding ourselves from the truth is doing and has done great damage to our society. Not only that, but it diminishes the people who put in the effort, trained hard, studied hard, etc. It diminishes their accomplishments. Imagine you're writing a paper. You have to research a topic and write an essay. If you've been to high school or college, you know this all too well. You take the time to do it right, you use the net, but you also see what you can find in libraries. If other people can provide insight, you find and ask them for an interview. You put the maximum effort and spend several nights on it. You get an A, and you're happy, but some stoner kid who just pulls some information off Wikipedia, and gets a few other sources to make it look good, then just types something up real quick, or even pays someone else to do it, that kid, what if he gets a reward too? That just diminished your accomplishment. It says that no matter what you do, we have to balance it out and make everyone a winner. The law of averages then means that your height of glory isn't so high anymore.

Getting off that little tangent and back on topic, we all feel confident now. Our collective self esteem rises, why? Because we are told constantly that we're doing well. If its not verbalized, its shown in some other form. So as our collective heights of accomplishment dips down, our collective confidence rises. Now you superimpose those two line graphs, and they probably intersect in quite a few places. What this means is that we're basically, through society's changes, raising our children to be narcissistic. If a kid has a narcissistic parent or both parents even, that kid is more likely to be narcissistic himself.

So women know how to play mind games, they're especially good at it. Anyone who has been around women long enough knows this, even if its beneficent, they still do it. I think it's so ingrained in their nature that they don't even know it, or at least, some don't. So what do you do to a man, the enemy. Men are the enemy now, terms like toxic masculinity are floating around, when I think that should be flipped right around on its head to be honest. But I digress. How would a woman go about getting back at a man she doesn't like, especially if that man is her superior, either a boss or higher ranked officer or what have you. Well, she could stage something. Take months to carefully craft emails behind the scenes that might make him look bad. She could make him look ineffectual in front of his boss, but those carry risk. In today's climate, what carries the least amount of risk is sexual harassment claims. All the way from unwanted advances up to and including rape, that spectrum of crimes is such a hot button issue, that it's easier than ever for a woman to do this to another man.

I actually have an example of this with a friend of my mother's. She's known him for over 20 years, I've known him for a long time too, so does my grandparents. He's a good guy, he's a Christian, he goes on mission trips to Guam and stuff like that.Yet, he got fired from his job because he gave one of his female customers a compliment. The man cuts hair. Before that, I don't know what his day job was, but he's been cutting hair forever. He now works for a medical company, but he got fired from his job by saying something about her hair looking nice. The guy is not a creeper, he literally cuts hair. He cuts my hair, he cuts my mom's hair, and he's been into that for years now.

So, to sum this up, I just want to say that yes, I do have some concerns about this issue, even if I don't fully believe this article. I am glad women are finding a place in society, and wish the extreme feminism stuff would stop, its not needed anymore. I'm not saying everything is perfect, but we don't need the extremists, they're harming the cause. And just to reiterate, I know there are good women out there, I never said there weren't, and if something came across that way, it wasn't my intention. I also do know that women have a high aptitude for manipulation and  mind games, whether it be for good or ill. My main message, if any were to come from this, would have to be, stand up, get your head out of the sand, and start thinking again. That goes for everyone, men and women alike.

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2019-01-14 11:59:48

Couple of things here:

1. This isn't the end of men.
2. Ironcross, this bull about women being more manipulative is shortsighted, as you can't very well substitute your own experiences for global trends. if you'd like to somehow demonstrate and then validate some sort of metric that proves your point, then fine, but until you do that, this point is bankrupt. And before we go a step further, the onus is on you to prove, not on me to disprove.
3. Pursuant to point 2, let's throw out a few interesting tidbits, shall we? Okay, so yes, there are definitely women out there who will lie in order to ruin someone's life, and that is absolutely not okay. But ask yourself this: with all the men out there who are willing to commit physical or sexual violence against women (partners, random females, women they know but with whom they are not in a relationship), who has the bigger fault? The fact that sometimes people will lie or twist facts should give an idea of just how deep this goes. For centuries, women have been disbelieved when it comes to the violence to which they are subjected. If a few of them lie in order to finally be heard...again, that's not okay, but are you really surprised? When you live in a society which treats you as a second-class citizen, is it any wonder that a few of those women have resorted to the wrong method in order to get something they think they want? Remember, not justifying this; I don't think lying is okay in these circumstances, and I don't think anyone, man or woman, should have their life ruined by the false testimony of someone else. But I don't think anyone should have their life ruined by rape, physical abuse or male domination either, and guess what? That's still happening, and I daresay it's happening far, far more often than women lying about being abused by men.
4. I believe that in many ways, men aren't particularly well-suited at the moment to change. We've been on top so long that we are used to the way things have historically been, so to suddenly erode that makes many of us feel threatened. I think it's imperative that we teach men to embrace traits that they should've been embracing more openly centuries ago. it's not wrong, for instance, for a man to show emotional vulnerability, and society needs to stop making fun of a man who is able to express his emotions. At the core of that entirely too-long article is a central tenet: that women are gaining ground. I say this is a good thing. And if men want to be competitive, they need to get with the times and stop thinking that the way it was is the way it always should be. It's really not that bad, I promise.
5. Let's be careful with feminism. There are extremists in every group, of course, but the vast, vast majority of feminists do not want men to be on the bottom of the dogpile. They simply want equity for all, regardless of gender or any other such factors. If that looks like they favour women, it is only because society has so long favoured men. There has to be a pushback in order to eventually settle somewhere in the middle. You dismiss feminism as extremist at your own peril, really. By all means, shake your head at the true man-haters out there - they exist, just as woman-haters exist on the polar opposite end of the spectrum - but don't factor either group into your analysis of gender.

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2019-01-14 12:18:56

Hm.
I'm bad at engaging with broad-scale facts and stats. Let's play the Anecdote game instead, even though any points that might come of it are much, much weaker:
Re: college. Primary and secondary education, on reflection, were fairly androgynous, as gender stereotypes go. I can only really say that because I have college to contrast it against, and if college wasn't a feminine stereotype, it would be only for lack of gossip obvious enough for me to notice. And I can only really say this in hindsight; at the time, I didn't think of it in gendered terms, so much as "this 'extroverts shall inherit the Earth' bullcrap is so bloody  aggravating, and wtf am I supposed to write about this week's episode of Tuesdays with Morry?" I'm struggling to pick where to go with this next, maybe because it's hard to organize, maybe because I took melatonin 4-5 hours ago and never got to sleep, idk. If I had to come up with a group photo to encapsulate my first semester, it would be a couple women and a deep-voiced-but-nasally guy talking about how excited they are to meet so many new people, an awkward  effeminate guy off to one side trying not to stand too far away, looking uncomfortably at something out of view, while one of the people from whatever office handled all the interactions with incoming Freshmen watches from the background, and a guy who looks like he stopped smiling for the first time in over a year, trying to fake a jovial farewell wave while slinking off to escape (maybe he's holding an admittance letter for Culinary school, or something, with a dufflebag over his shoulder, so it's clear he's leaving). Also a bunch of tipsy 18-20-year-olds wearing really long shirts over really short shorts, prancing in the background semi-drunkenly, surrounded by garden walls and pecan trees, but that's the background. You will notice that I do not appear in this photo. Also, someone's probably holding up a cat or a puppy, since they either are on their way to, or just got back from the Humane Society. And someone's wearing Yoga pants.
Weirdly, I had a much easier time approaching teachers in high school, and felt like we were able to communicate way more effectively. The easiest example is Calculus; in HS, I felt like interactions with the teacher made me understand the subject better. In college, it was inscrutable and just made things worse. HS teacher was a woman, college was a man, but the same thing seemed to apply regardless. Ex, my high school chemistry teacher was male, and was good enough that everything that went wrong in that class is very clearly and directly my fault (dear 2004: please don't make know-it-all comments, and please do your homework early, k thanks). It was just a weird environment where almost everyone was alien and antivalidating, without any way to deal with it beyond avoidance, which just makes everything worse.
Also the intro weekend bonding trip (why?), and I'm not really sure what the point of "Explorations" was. Like, what was that 0.25 credit mandatory class even about? I took it twice and I still couldn't tell you. Round one involved ... umm... what even did it involve? Tuesdays with Morry, Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, Tai Chi, an optional trip to the Humane Society, random conversations about ourselves, probably a bunch of other assignments I've blocked from my quick-access memory for my own sanity. Round 2 was basically CBT in the form of a class with journal assignments. I got a free stapler out of it? Maybe I can find some of those journal entries and figure something out, but that seems like an awful lot of effort compared to what anyone would get out of it...
Most of what I got out of it could be accomplished with a few youtube videos, other than the CS and language bits. Everything else was basically filler that demanded weekly Reader Response essays, because I clearly have an opinion worth 1500 words on every single piece of writing that crosses my path. What did I think about "The Yellow Wallpaper"? Yay imagination, boo Victorian repressionism? How about this week's reading from the anthropology or history section? ... Umm, that sure was some interesting anthropology / history? I write fiction and rants on the internet; I have approximately nothing to say about the latest reading assignment. Where do you people get all these opinions? And how do you expand them into 1500 word essays? There are only so many ways to say "I guess that was neat". I'ma go work on, like, a game or a song or something, now. Wait, no, can't, because this crap is so depressing My choices are either bed or time-wasting internet activities, neither of which seems worth it.
(Have I mentioned that I hated college?)
https://forum.audiogames.net/new/reply/27240/So, like, what do I think about this "college is overly feminine" thesis? Eh, idk, the college I was at did not have Fraternities or sororities, but one of the male dorms gave off the impression of being something like an oversized, disorganized fraternity, and I wanted nothing to do with it. It was basically the rough side of the same coin. After two years, a class of Freshmen who contained some trace amounts of fun and likability appeared, and for approximatelywgw 1, 1.5 years, I could ignore most of the bullcrap (other than how my classes that weren't French or Chinese were all about Reader Response), get in swordfights far less often than would be nice but still 3h/week isn't too bad, and watch people play video games and have amusing conversations. ... Ugh, now that I put it like that ... sad
I think I'd've hated a college as masculine as the one I actually attended was feminine, somewhere around the same order of magnitude. LCB was about just doing things, without gendering. A college more about achievement, rather than being a 24/7 book club meeting trying to shove extroversion and kittens down my throat, might have been something resembling likable. Something where the feeling was "We don't care who you are; we care about your ability to demonstrate useful skills", rather than effectively punishing introversion and ambivalence about arbitrary literature. Had I known what I was getting myself into, I'm not sure what different decision I'd've made. But it would not have been based around evaluating the options based on how they work with different gender stereotypes.

(Safari on iOS: where you can randomly wind up typing in the address field after typing several paragraphs in the reply box, because lollollol. -_- )

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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2019-01-14 12:46:15

@4/5: the assaults vs false accusation argument has never, ever, gone anywhere productive, in my experience. Both sides always talk past each other, the stats are a mess that can be framed in any number of ways, and if really wanted to continue the list of problems with the subject, I probably could.

@5: I like how the article points out that it doesn't matter if the measurable gendered tendencies are inherent or socialized, since the results are the same. What, specifically, do you mean by men adapting? The first possibility to come to mind is what I've heard some refer to as "treating men as broken women", but that kinda reeks of gender essentialism, so instead I'll point to my previous post. Maybe "treating turtles as broken dragons"? Na, still has the problems. hmm


It is ... interesting, how bloody near impossible it is for subjects of this sort to come up without one side seemingly blaming the other for everything. "Feminists are ruining everything!" "No, men ruined everything, and are whining instead of keeping up with the times!" Or-or, maybe things have changed in such a way as to value certain personalities and skills over others, and we would be better off setting the fact that these traits presently correlate with gender on the back-burner. One could easily frame this as introverts vs extroverts, or social skills vs technical skills, or initiative vs compliance, rather than men vs women. But, really, there shouldn't be a "vs" in there in the first place. It doesn't have to be a 0-sum competition.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2019-01-14 13:48:56

Just to be clear here, I blame only those who truly earn it. If you are lying about the harm someone has done to you, then I blame you to some extent. If you are perpetuating violence or myths about violence, then again, I blame you to some extent. Otherwise, I'm just here to find a need and fill it.
I definitely blame society for a lot of things, but since society is a social construct by definition, I'm definitely not pointing fingers at any one person or specific sub-group.
Basically, don't be a jerk and don't be an apologist, and I will absolutely love to talk details. Do either of those things, and my desire to talk to you about these things drops off dramatically.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-14 18:00:46

@5 You see only what you want to see, like the rider who puts blinders on his horse to get it across a bridge it would never cross otherwise. If you side with the feminists (only the worst of whom I take issue with), then you must think men are domineering, brutish, emotionally stunted, violent, sex-crazed maniacs. Now maybe you don't see it just like that, but that is the line some of these people are going with. So men have our qualities just like women have theirs. You seriously can't accept women can be catty and manipulative? It's all over the place, all you have to do is take a look around.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-01-14 18:57:49

Ironcross, I didn't say they can't be. What I said is that this is not a trait that we should be using for the sake of making an argument. Women can also be serial killers. They can also be saintly. They can also be sexually attracted to fish. They can also be into the hardcore BDSM lifestyle. They can be all sorts of things, just as men can, so to cherry-pick that they can be manipulative in pursuit of your critique of the "me too" movement doesn't really work. By your own logic, I could say "men are catty and manipulative" and this means that we're back to square 1.

As far as I have ever seen, the data of proven cases where a woman smeared a man falsely with accusations of sexual violence or harassment indicates that this is actually rather rare. I'm not half as concerned with the few issues that do slip through the cracks as I am with the far greater number of instances where people using the same rhetoric you're attempting decide to essentially blame the victim, or make the atmosphere so toxic as to make that victim virtually incapable of getting herself heard. For every case of a woman falsely accusing a man and maybe even getting away with it, there are probably dozens where a woman is not believed, accused of lying, or wrestled into silence. And we live in a society where the fear of this happening is still great enough that many people who have had violence perpetrated against them do not dare to speak up, lest they meet the sort of resistance I'm talking about...so my numbers are probably skewed even more strongly in the direction I'm indicating.

And sure, okay. Some people think feminists hate men and want women to have all the power. But we, who also identify as feminists, BTW, reject that utterly. We want women to receive what they deserve as equals. That's it. That's all. If you want to go tarring the majority with a tainted brush just because the minority gets loud, then you leave the door open for people like me to claim that you hate women. If you're allowed to represent a group using its vilest members, then surely so am I?
But no, that's not how life works. We reject the extremists just as loudly as you do, believe me. In fact, one of the criticisms of the left - a perfectly valid one - is cannibalism, on a sociointellectual level.

I want to tell a little story here, because I think it's indicative of what's going on with some people.
So do you remember when the Bill Cosby scandal came out? I was talking with my partner at the time, and the first words that came out of my mouth when I heard that were something like, "Oh dear god, that's awful, if it's true.". I then proceeded to say something like, "Well, women sometimes lie about this sort of thing". My partner, naturally, got outraged. First, she pointed me at some studies indicating that, while this does happen, it's not very common. And then she started in on my preconceptions. She said that when a person begins by basically saying, "Yeah, but sometimes they lie", it represents a form of apologism. Rather than actually showing solidarity with the victims, or even just taking a dead neutral stance of "I don't know enough of the facts, but now I'm curious to find out", the assertion that women lie, as a first-line defense, supports the notion that men (especially men, though I've seen women do this too) are prone to defend their own gender. It is, for some of us, a kneejerk reaction. We don't want to see anyone falsely accused, so we remember the one or two times it's happened and latch onto them like barnacles. So what she did was to ask me to take twenty seconds any time I heard of a woman claiming to be the victim of sexual violence. "Just think about it. Analyze what you're thinking, and why you're thinking it. Don't talk. Don't write. Don't respond. Just think."
And guess what? She was absolutely, 100% right. And so am I when I make the same point.
When you respond to "me too" by saying "Yeah, but we all know women lie sometimes", you're missing the point entirely. No, it's obviously not okay when people lie, and noeody is going to say that false accusations are the way to go. I think you must rationally understand that this is not ideal. But let me tell you, having witnessed it, that if you are talking to someone whose history you don't know or don't consider, and you make an apologist-style comment like that, you run the very risk I mentioned awhile back. Start by putting even more onus on a victim, and it will make that victim feel as if the deck is stacked against them.
For the aake of clarification, let me say this. If a woman comes to me and talks about sexual violence, I do not immediately disbelieve her. I will not immediately believe that her would-be abuser is guilty. I suspect that she is probably telling the truth, or some version of it, unless given reason to suspect otherwise. I investigate. I get facts. And I go where the facts lead. I'm not perfect, of course, but I don't just leap, and I don't just put up walls either. Because of course she might be lying, but the stats say it isn't likely. If she is, I'll deal with it. I'm not going to go after the guy and treat him like slime with absolutely no verification, that's for sure. Feminists, the proper sort, do not want men to suffer purely on one woman's word. They want justice, however that justice is going to look, when people truly do get abused. No more fear. No more sexual violence epidemic. No more safety based on reputation of the man involved. No more bullshit. Just the facts, and a greater awareness of the staggering amount of sexual volence still present in the world today.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-14 20:23:19

@jade, and that is the problem. I think one of the major reasons we get defensive when a woman claims she got raped or sexually abused is because there have been too many instances where women have used that claim to utterly and completely destroy peoples lives. Even now there are women threatening to use that claim to ruin peoples lives -- I've seen it happen. I won't reveal specifics, obviously, but the core issue is that our justice system treats women like jewels that, if damaged, could cause the world to end. We do not treat women as equals. We do not treat men as equals, for that matter. If a woman claims sexual harassment or rape in court, she is more likely to be believed than the man who defends himself. And, even if the case is dropped, the societal harm has already been done: just by claiming that a woman was sexually abused by a man, that woman, whoever she is, has just completely and utterly cast that man out of society. His future generations, if he ever has any, may suffer the consequence of his actions, generations after it was committed. And that man may not have even committed a crime worthy of such a punishment in the first place! Now, if we flip the coin and a man claims a woman raped him, society treats it as just another normal matter, easily forgettable. The woman will not be punished as harshly as the man would have if the positions were reversed. The woman is free to live her life as she wishes, only slightly tainted, and such a taint is easily lost and forgotten. And the issue is that the me2 movement (and others like it) keep enforcing that kind of attitude from society. I know that there are women who are apart of the me2 movement that are not as hardcore as others, but its the overall picture that the #me2 movement paints that is the problem, not the individuals who are apart of it, because the overall movement as a whole influences society far more than an individual. And what I've scene, heard and read indicates that the me2 movement paints men as what ironcross32 described. And the movement forgets, every single time, that women can be just the same.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-01-14 20:55:24

So its OK for women to wield the power to literally ruin lives, not just professional lives, but lives. Because well, they technically made lynching illegal, but it still happens. Not with rope, but with dirty stares, shouting and yelling, and campaigns against the person on mainstream media. I don't propose to treat women as liars right off the bat. Not only is that not fair, but it goes against the 6th amendment of the constitution. The trouble is, everyone's wrapped up in this judge first, ask questions later mentality that honestly I feel very strongly stems from the left. To combat this, we verify the claim. My stance is simple, I think man or woman, if you lie about any crime, not just sexual ones, but any crime where you accuse another party, and it can be proven you've knowingly done so, you should receive the same punishment as the potential convict would have. In fact, I would like to see it be the maximum sentence for that punishment allowed under the law.

I would like for people to actually regain the power of thought. A lot of people have actually, the walk away movement has gained in popularity, you can see the stories on youtube. The media is fueling the anger, because it makes good news, its good TV. So we have people who see this stuff on TV and get outraged immediately.

I want good things for women. I don't want to see them be raped or have to deal with violence in their lives. But since I"m ont a woman (my brother might claim otherwise), I identify more strongly with the problems facing men. The fact that a lot of single mothers out there are raising boys I feel is a problem. They don't learn what it means to be a man, that's a father's job. It takes both parents though. The father teaches boys how to be boys, while the mother sort of keeps their heads on straight. And sure you have mama's boys and daddy's girls, and that's totally fine, but you know they've each still got things to learn from their parent of the opposite sex. This is a dynamic that's worked for at least a millennium, but now the world is rapidly changing. So I get a little upset about hearing terms like toxic masculinity, when so much of what I see out there is toxic feminity.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2019-01-14 21:51:01

Called it.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2019-01-15 00:58:57

Ethin:
What I'm trying to tell you is that the trend you are attempting to highlight is nowhere near as bad as it looks. Remember that when you do hear of women lying to tarnish a man's reputation, it's going to be broadcast in such a way as to make it a big deal. And of course it -is a big deal. But you know what -isn't being broadcast in quite the same way? All the hundreds of thousands of claims that were true. All those times that women claimed sexual violence, and were right. Part of this is a culture which still has a very strong male power base. Part of this is just a simple fact, that we rarely hear of all the times the justice system gets it right (or any other system, for that matter). But please, give me a little faith here. I'm not just blindly spouting propaganda. I study these things. I'm planning to be a social worker, and I've done a lot of the homework so you and others like you don't have to bother. If I tell you that women lying to smear a man isn't common, it's because, compared to the number of times their claims are justified entirely, I'm right, and it's true. No one who lies outright about having a crime committed against them should get the time of day. I'm with you on that one. And we aren't talking about blaming the accused without proof. We're talking about pursuing the facts. If a woman shows up at a hospital with bruises on her face and a dazed look in her eyes, and says that her uncle Billy Bob raped her, she should be taken seriously. She probably didn't put those bruises on herself. She should, if she's willing, be rape-kitted. Her bruises should be analyzed in order to see what sort of violence befell her (hands, fists, fingers, feet, shoes, ropes, etc). And BillyBob should be investigated. Quietly. No one needs to ruin his life at this point, but there needs to be some sort of investigation. At this stage of the game, BillyBob has two basic issues. If he's innocent, then surely the evidence will exonerate him. If he's guilty, that fucker needs to be punished.
Oh, and speaking of punishments, I want you to chew on some stuff. Did you know that sometimes - less often now, but it still happens - men who rape or commit violence, and who have positions of power, often either get away with it entirely, or have their sentences commuted? I have heard many stories where a lawyer tries to defend their client by saying something like, "Your Honour, you can't send Jimmy to jail for twenty years. He's in his second year of a football scholarship. You'll ruin his career.". Why is this even being tolerated for a hot second? Can you imagine the sort of outrage a woman might feel if, it having been proved that Jimmy did in fact assault or rape her, that someone is trying to get him clemency because of his power in the world? What the hell does his life have to do with the fact that he basically ruined hers? This is the sort of toxic masculinity we're talking about when we get into it. Men are still operating from a position of power in a lot of cases. Not all cases, and that power isn't as big as it used to be, but it's still there.
So I just want you to think about things for a moment, the pair of you. I understand that you have a serious problem with people being falsely accused or tarnished. I do too. And I sorta take your point about a liar getting a sentence for lying and trying to ruin someone's life...though we should take that for all crimes, but if we did, we'd have already-overworked prisons bursting at the seams. But in the same breath, if it is proved that a man beats, assaults or rapes someone, I'd argue that he should get the maximum sentence. There is no excuse, ever, at any time, for raping anyone, regardless of your feelings or your gender.
And for the record? Yes, women can and do commit sexual violence against both men and other women sometimes. Not nearly so often as do men against women, but it does happen and I recognize it.

Just take a breath here, the two of you. Remember that every time you say "not all men" or "yeah but women lie", you are actually proving my point for me. You are buying into a narrative that lets you make it someone else's fault. You are missing the point of the "me too" movement. You are missing the point of feminism as it truly is, and substituting a paranoid and half-extremist version of it instead. I am not asking you to ignore the plight of wronged men, and I'm not asking you to aelieve all women without doubt and without fail. What I -am asking you to do is truly reflect on the sort of mindset which makes you do what you're doing and say what you're saying. It took me weeks to come to terms with it, but hell, if I can do it, so can you, and I entreat you to try.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 01:51:50 (edited by defender 2019-01-15 02:23:47)

Yeah, I'm working on that knee jerk reaction too, thanks to too much anti SJW fervor that was starting to turn me into a judgemental asshole.
But I mean it's not entirely unreasonable to be more skeptical at first when it's someone famous, especially if their in politics, because their are stronger motives for taking someone down with that tactic.


This article seems pretty biased, and while I'm torn on weather being able to choose your baby's sex is a thing we should be doing, I just don't see this becoming an issue any time soon. Something to look out for maybe but the end of men is a clickbait title meant to grab people's emotions and that lends the entire article less credibility in my eyes.
Besides, how many people can really afford this procedure? globally, a tiny fraction, and in the US it still seems to not be common.
About the feminist extremists, I now see how much money bloggers and youtubers who stir up hatred around them are making and how much particularly right wing media is playing off men's fear about them for juicy stories, even better if their televised arguments.
I strongly believe that most feminists are fighting for a noble cause even if this wave is sadly being hijacked from within by emotionally immature people, many with mental problems.


Women are, in fact, generally better at manipulating, the communications centers of their brains are bigger and more utilized and the evolutionary response from men is to protect them while that of women is to group together, so this makes perfect sense and is pretty indisputable at this point, plus, if you can't see it your self, talk to most more mature women and they'll be able to see right through the bullshit and tell you that it's a common tactic, especially with younger females.


sexual assault/domestic abuse stats are so astronomically in favor of the female and have been for all of human history, that even with the bias against males (depends on the region and generation) and the likely lack of reporting (same issue with legitimate claims and only just starting to get better) those (admittedly very scary and fucked up) cases of males being falsely accused may as well be a blip on the radar.
Doesn't take a genius to observe it for them selves either.
So yeah that power is terrifying, but very rarely used, and that's just in the developed world where you actually have a chance. With abuse/sexual assault victims of either gender almost always being terrified of coming forward after threats of reprisal from the aggressor, not to mention the brutal but necessary cross examination and in depth questions about already traumatic  events in court, if someone comes forward and sticks to their story even through that hell, than their is a vanishingly small chance they are lying and most courts will pick it up quickly when they are.
Even outside of the court where simply saying something happened can turn everyone against your target, particularly if your more popular/trusted than they are, it's still a pretty dangerous prospect even if some climates are more open to it, since your almost bound to have some backlash regardless and need to keep up the act for a while even around your closest family/friends, and not many people are really capable of spinning that to their advantage without cracking under the pressure.
Relatively recent breakthroughs in gene based forensics in the developed world though have been making it harder and harder to bullshit without being pretty damn smart and dedicated, which isn't a trait of many people...
Date rape is also really hard to prove unless drugs were involved and tested for soon afterwards, or their were multiple other witnesses who are willing to testify. It carries allot more social weight on college campuses, but you can also majorly reduce your chances of either having it happen or being accused of it by simply not going to wild parties or drinking to excess.
So in short you need to be A. in a place where you'll be more likely to be believed. B. seen as more trustworthy than your target and C. Dedicated enough and good enough at acting/manipulating to fool a bunch of lawyers and police over a significant span of time.
I do wish the punishments for false accusations were harsher though, but that may cause women to be even more afraid to come forward particularly in certain states where the bias is more against the woman, which would be pretty fucked up.


You want to talk about trivial sexual harassment claims in the workplace though? Sure, that's a better case especially in some jobs/regions, and I don't like this current climate any more than the next guy... But it's still an utterly meaningless discussion on the global scale, since the massive majority of women in this world still have shit for rights anyway.
Plus, I'm still willing to believe that even with all the corporate PR bullshit and media bias, at least half the women who are brave enough to come to HR about it despite the danger of losing their job (same exact thing that falsely accused males are afraid of mind you) are telling the truth, just based on the honest and reasonable sounding accounts of women I've been reading and how fucking immature young people are, particularly males since they develop even slower.

2019-01-15 02:31:15

Women are often characterized as being more emotionally aware, or more manipulative if you like. This is beneficial as well as troublesome, however. It means that they often negotiate a little better, and try to seek nonviolent and nonaggressive solutions to problems. But no, I'm not going to argue your point there, Defender. I accept it, even if I don't ascribe a ton of heft to it.

But thank you for the rest of it. I do agree that some harassment cases I've heard of are...well, stretchy as hell, to say the very, very least. It's natural that this should happen sometimes, but still upsetting. But yeah, I'd warrant that the fair or strong majority of harassment cases are completely legitimate, whether in the workplace or elsewhere. Thank you for recognizing the relative importance of the things I'm trying to discuss here. And I totally agree with you re: "The End of Men" being clickbait and a rather slimy way to try and talk about this issue.
Interestingly, I had never heard of this gender-choosing thing before this morning. Not once. That should tell you how overwhelmingly popular it is.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 02:57:37

Here's some reading for those of you who don't want to take my word for it. Both links will lead you to further reading, if you want to. I'll summarize really quickly below the links.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684

https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi … age_id=297

Basically, less than 40% of actual sexual violence is reported. Of that, approximately half of the accusations result in prosecution, and less than ten percent are proven demonstrably false. Of that less-than-ten-percent number, studies show that most of those were from teenage girls, and probably with the consent of the parent. Interestingly, the teenage brain is not yet fully developed, so while I am not going to tell you that this means false accusations are okay under any circumstances, I'm going to suggest that it complicates the issue.
So let's break this down, just for fun.
Let's say we have a list of a thousand assaults (just indulge me for a moment, let me play with numbers). Of the total of a thousand assaults that happened, approximately four hundred will be reported. Of those, approximately two hundred will lead to criminal action. Of the four hundred reported, let's say five percent, or twenty cases, are blatantly and demonstrably false. That is approximately twenty false alligations for every one thousand cases of sexual violence, and I'm just using clean numbers and uncomplicated metrics to give you a gauge on how it really looks.
So again, we won't pretend that's okay when it happens. But let's face the facts. Due to various reasons (societal shaming, disbelief, apologism, etc), approximately six hundred cases of sexual violence out of a thousand will go unreported...and of those reported, around half will not result in prosecution. That's approximately eighty percent. Isn't it scary? And when I look at two percent vs. eighty percent, I know which number scares me more. Even if all true reports of sexual violence led to prosecution, which we know they don't, we're still looking at roughly sixty-five percent of crimes of sexual violence going unreported and ultimately unpunished. Again, ask yourself if the number of false claims looks so scary now. If you really do view women as equals, then it's morally bankrupt to stick to your guns on this one.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 04:22:35

I've never heard of it either. I really, really hope I doesn't get too popular (I like it when evolution does all of that for me, makes it more of a surprise). If we start selecting the genders of our children, it'll progress to us fully bio-engineering our children soo enough, which would be horrifying. I mean, you could create intellectual geniuses. You could completely undermine and destroy the universal balance, of sorts. But I digress. Jade, I get your point, I really do. And I can see where your coming from. And I dislike how the men get to get away with bullshit like that without any form of punishment. What do sports have to do with rape, sexual assault, murder, and the numerous other crimes that are illegal? Why do we take sports so damn seriously anyway? They're fucking games, for fucks sake. They're not real life. They don't dictate reality. Games are governed by rules. Games are governed by judges. Games are created by people. Oh, right... and their judged and ruled by people too. I've always wondered about that. And god forbid you dare actually ask that question around people actually interested in sports; they'll look at you and act like its the end of the world if you take away sports. Its disgusting, really it is. I mean, OK: I get the attachment to games. I can see how games can be addictive -- we've got many, and I've played many. But just because we are attached to a game doesn't mean that those games should influence the very things that make this country stable enough to live in. I know, I ranted about something entirely unrelated, but I needed to get that out of my system, because every time I here people praising sports as though they're gods gifts to man, and every time I here the (most likely illegal) bullshit sports teams and managers do, and every time I here things like this (sports influencing court cases and such), I always wonder to myself why I should even bother making anything I create public to the masses if said masses are so damn stupid. And I'm sorry if I insulted a lot of people, I didn't mean to, but yeah, I needed to write that down somewhere. smile

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

2019-01-15 04:42:17

Being a professional athlete takes a ton of physical aptitude, and I can respect the people who devote their lives to it even if I don't wholly understand the appeal. I like sports to some extent (baseball and hockey, in that order), but I'm not a rabid sports fan. I also don't think athletes need to be making millions of dollars a year when we have so many people in the world who simply don't have enough.

Which brings me really neatly back to something you said awhile back, Ironcross.

You talk of a world where in order for there to be winners, there have to be losers. In order for there to be rich people, there have to be poor people.
Okay. In a strictly Darwinian sense, some people just can't make the cut. I will allow this, for the nonce.
But the problem is that the line beneath which you're a "loser" or a "poor person" is not necessarily reasonable. It is not actually based on measurable merit, and is instead constructed by capitalism and the ideals around which said system is based. Look at the number of hours a person has to work in a year just to stay alive. Look at the wage gap (yup, still exists, sorry-not-sorry to mention that and bring it up). Look at the cost of things vs. the amount a person makes. Look at all the social situations which often stop otherwise deserving people from getting where they want to go or from obtaining what they need. Central to the philosophy you espouse is the tenet that if you're poor, or a loser, you probably earned it somehow. Well, it's really easy to say that if you're a part of the dominant group, and I believe you mostly are. Do women deserve to get lesser pay because they're women, and do they deserve to have to work harder to get the same promotions that men do for less effort? Because that's still happening. Do people of colour deserve the scorn they still get, since rasism is most sincerely not dead in America? Is it fair that their references and resumes and stuff often have to be actively better than, not just equal to, their white peers? Do homosexuals deserve to be persecuted for their choice of a partner, by businesses and organizations who refuse to cater to them? Because all of these things can and do contribute to poverty and well-being, and by your own admission you think there have to be losers out there. I think if you really sit back and pull this apart, you'll see how heinous this mindset is.

Picture, for just a moment, a world where everyone has their basic needs met. Everyone's got food, shelter, clean water and safe living conditions. Everyone has at least comparable access to stuff like education and health care (it'll never be 100% the same, but let's say it's close). Gender, sexual orientation and skin colour are no longer designations to be used in the stratification of society. Do you actually believe that all competition would disappear? Because I promise you, it wouldn't. There'd still be an active drive to do well, and in some cases to compete. Humanity has proven over and over that it isn't just going to go fallow and stop working if its basic needs are met. In fact, the quality of work done may sharply increase, since there is no longer crippling financial pressure to perform. People will be able to deliberate more, to go where they are strong instead of where they are forced to go by circumstance. People will be able to pursue higher education. Higher education generally correlates to greater ability to think critically. Greater critical thinking means more social innovation, more invention, more equable outcomes. This is win-win. I fail to see your problem with this scenario.
And before you quote scarcity of resources, please, please, please do some research. Obviously my scenario isn't gonna happen tomorrow, or even next decade, but it's possible.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 04:54:46

If and when you analyze my previous post, here's a really great question to ask yourself:
So you say there need to be winners and losers. Fine, okay. Social stratification. Let's allow it.
So why is the proportion of "losers" so often skewed toward people who are non-white, non-male, non-heterosexual? Why is it that straight white men do not make up a proportionally representative slice of that group which falls below the "loser line"?
Obviously straight white men sometimes do fall through the cracks and end up on the bottom somewhere. It happens, and it's going to keep on happening. But why does it so often seem that it's black people, women, Latinx people, gay people, who are getting the short end of the stick?
And before you cite numbers, please remember something. Saying something like "three million straight white men fit this category, vs. only one million black women": that word "proportional" is very, very important. If you fail to account for it, you're going to come off looking very silly.

I used to believe in social stratification to some extent. if you work really hard, you get more money, and this accords you more power. Fine, I thought.
And then I realized the thing I just pointed out. That many, many people who are naturally part of a minority seem to struggle far harder than the rest, on average. And it got me to realize something.
This whole idea of winners and losers is nothing more than a social construct. It exists in this form primarily to justify the continued existence of an in-group and an out-group. Alt-rights love this sort of thing, and centrists and more moderate right-wingers don't fully understand or accept it most of the time. It allows the alt right, in particular, to say, "Yeah, well, you're a loser. You don't fit in, and here's why", and then trump up some reason to justify the claim. Women aren't fit to be police officers because they're not as big and strong as men. It's okay to get stopped on the street if your skin is dark because there are dark-skinned terrorists out there just waiting to explode people. Being gay is a sin, because...well, because God says so, and because we all know that if homosexuality gets around, it'll destroy the human race. It's okay that poor people don't have the same access to public services because they obviously made bad life choices to explain their poverty; if they try really, really hard, they'll succeed. Each and every argument is bullshit; oversimplified, self-aggrandizing bullshit. Ironcross, I really and truly hope you are not one of the people towing this particular party line.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 11:29:44 (edited by defender 2019-01-15 11:32:25)

Honestly the wage gap has always confused me, and seems like a pretty inaccurate thing when applied to the entire nation anyway.
The only sources I see having done recent studies on it are always organizations or schools based around women's rights, and tend to be in more libral states. It makes sense that they would be the ones most likely to want to do it but, at the same time it's hard to trust.
I've heard it said that when ever asked, basically every economist, male or female says it's bullshit now, but that could just be a rumor.
I feel like, with women tending to work in lesser paying careers or lesser positions (seems to be slowly changing with the focus on STEM) and the hole maternity leave issue taken into account, their just shouldn't really be a gap still, and I have a suspicion that purposefully ignoring that data is a pretty popular thing to do to force an agenda.
I just don't see someone going oh this person doing the same job with the same degree and with very similar performance scores deserves less just cuz they have a vagina. Is it a case of men, being much more common, being allot more likely to make pay decisions and liking the man more because he runs in the same circles while the woman is more likely to hang out with the other women? Is it because women are seen as more chatty at work so they don't seem to be getting as much work done? Are women generally less outwardly driven in terms of career advancement? I just don't know... I really doubt it's their gender alone at this point though outside of highly physical jobs, even if what ever it may be is probably still fucked up in some way.
Also diversity quota hires are becoming a bit of a  plague especially in certain fields, military and police for instance, where you get less qualified people that tend to be given shortcuts in training and are held to lower standards just so they can still pass and exist and be seen doing that job, even if they can't be trusted when the shit hits the fan, where as the ones that passed at the same standards are just as reliable as most men and probably surpass them in a few situations, even if not able to equal the best ones in most other areas.
So I can definitely see those inferior hires being paid less, which could possibly splash over onto the qualified females of the group as well and that's obviously bullshit, but slightly understandable if 80% of them really are that bad.

2019-01-15 12:28:27

Apparently, women don't ask for raises as much as men do. So, uh, maybe those outreach programs to schools need to encourage women to ask for raises more.
Though, tbh, I'd never have thought of asking for a raise as an essential part of the process, either. It's not like they tell you that in Career Orientation. ... What even did they tell us in Career Orientation? Something something resumes and interviews? IDK, I tuned most of it out because the whole thing felt terribly wrong and gross.
My general assumption was that people get promoted when positions open up, and get pay increases accordingly. And it's mostly a game of Musical Executive Chairs.. With raise negotiations happening when demands of the job change. But idk, this is all from, like, cartoons and the Office Space movie.
So, yeah, if feminine-coded skills are in higher demand, the levels of risk-taking to get higher wages are apparently still masculine-coded. It's almost as though it isn't black-and-white.

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2019-01-15 21:41:36

The wage gap is shrinking and becoming less of an issue, but it still exists in some circles. By no means am I saying that if you're female, you are guaranteed to be paid less than a male colleague at the exact same level as you. What I'm saying is that women often have more difficulty advancing due to pre-existing power structures, and requirements are often based around things that are rarely if ever needed. I'll give an example. A friend of mine, who was a police detective for thirty-odd years, tells me that the current test for police officers requires, among other things, that candidates be able to drag a hundred and twenty-five-pound bag out through a car window and then down a road for a hundred yards unaided. Many women have trouble with this, while men do not. So on the surface...okay, men make better police because they can pass the test, right? Wrong. When I asked how often any given officer is likely to encounter that sort of challenge, my friend said that it is extremely unlikely. Most times, if you're being asked to haul someone out of a car that way, you have backup, so you aren't alone. And even if you don't, hauling a person a hundred yards (instead of, say, forty yards) is arbitrarily difficult, and doesn't fit any real-world scenario. In other words, deliberately or otherwise, the bar was set particularly high for no good reason. I've asked several cops about that one, and every one of them, male and female alike by the way, agrees that certain testing procedures are needlessly harsh. This doesn't just exist in police work either. So my point is that we have to have testing/qualification procedures which accurately represent the challenges of the job. If at that point women can't match up, or for that matter men can't, then that's as may be...but until or unless things continue to change on that front, it's really hard to just hand-wave stuff.
For the record, I am definitely not in favour of hiring people who may be a straight-up health or safety risk just to fill a quota. This goes for skin colour/race, gender, physical/mental capacity, the whole nine yards. If all things are even, or relatively even, then sure, fill your quota, but don't do it if doing so represents a marked drop in quality or safety or whatnot.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-01-15 22:34:55 (edited by defender 2019-01-15 22:37:34)

Hmm yeah allot of feminists seem to understand the wage gap wrong then. They take it to mean that a woman equal in every way is paid less and get outraged, when they should be looking more inward at this point and using that anger on more productive efforts like teaching women how to be more outspoken when it comes to this kind of thing. I mean sure it'd be nice if they didn't need to in the first place, but this is the current environment, has been for a long time and will probably continue to be for a while, so I believe we should be pushing adaptation to the here and now rather than looking into the future and yelling about how it should be happening yesterday, even if it sucks that it hasn't.
That's what most successful women in high level careers seem to be saying essentially. I didn't come in here with a big chip on my shoulder assuming everyone was against me personally, asking for everything to change or be given to me even though I hoped for a better future, I came in here with the expectation that I'd have to work even harder than most to prove my self, and that by doing so I'd be progressing the movement by example regardless. Those who still wouldn't accept me after all my successes weren't worth my time, unless they got in my way and then it was time to gather my allies and kick some ass.


I wasn't aware that so many officers found those strength tests to be unimportant, but they could just be bitching right? Most police training exists the way it does because of data patterns gathered from multiple real incidences...

Also, similar to your example, even if it wasn't a fugitive it would be important to be able to drag your partner to safety even if they were like 180 pounds, since most police work in pairs and backup isn't usually right their.
Your right though that police tend to work in groups when it's a planned thing or they've managed to corner someone after a chase... But when it's unplanned, well, even with only a few hundred officers injured or killed in officer involved shootings per year out of the several hundred thousand it's still something to consider, especially when that doesn't count ones injured by knives, trampled in protests, hit by cars ETC, all things that may require you to drag or even pick someone up and get them to safety.
That's not even to mention the need to control a suspect.. Which especially if they are particularly strong or on certain drugs can take up to 5 or 6 people at times... So you and your partner need to be able to hold on for a bit until more help hopefully arrives.
Still,it's hard not to notice the hypocrisy when so many officers are out of shape, desperation hires because of the area's high danger VS pay causing a quick turnover, or the department's lack of funding for quality training.

2019-01-15 23:15:01

In a way, it weeds out the incapable ones. You have situations where women end up being cops because they have something to prove, but really, they're not suited to it. Why, because they're petite little 5 foot tall skinny pretty faced women. Someone like that should not be a police officer, period. They'll never last, and they'll be ineffectual, having to resort to yelling and screaming to be taken seriously. Her authority is forced, her respect is grudgingly given, not commanded. Now, yes, there are women who work out, who are tough as nails, who exude authority, not just command respect but demand it. I actually have a lot of respect for Judge Judy, I did, and then I saw a video on youtube, watched it the whole way through, and my respect for her rose 10 fold. Hree's the video. Also, not all men are gonna be able to do that either. I doubt I could drag a 125 pound bag out a window and down the length of a football field. I also can see the absurdity in that test, but not all these tests are just to stop the women lol. A woman officer is fine but she damn well measure up, she better be able to walk the walk and talk the talk, why? Because if not, she could not only get herself killed, but get someone else killed. But that's the same for men too, if a little mousey paper pushing glasses wearing birdy armed guy wants to go out there and become a cop, people are gonna laugh at him. So he shouldn't be one. Part of this is society's fault, for making women feel they need to prove themselves, I grant you, but its foolish to mess around trying to do a job you're not suited to. So that's why there are tests, to make sure you're suited to do the job. I'm not a cop, I can't attest to what its like to be one, internally, it probably is a boys club. In bigger cities though, there will be more women, and they will fit in better.

If there even is a wage gap anymore, its shrinking vastly. If a woman wants to get paid, she needs to make it happen, that's all there is to it, go in there and do the work, have a streak of exemplary reviews under your belt, then march on in there and ask for a raise. I know men who are assertive, and women who aren't, and women who are and men who aren't. But in general, yes, its going to be tougher if you're sort of reserved and shy and the like, and don't want to speak up.

So if there's work to be done, do it on that front, make the qualification exams for jobs more equal to the thing needing doing. Re-evaluate that type of thing and come up with a system that's a little more fair, but still will weed out the unsuitable ones. All that I have absolutely no problem with. But this extreme feminism stuff, no, it needs to go away, now.

Here's another thing society is doing to women that I think is wrong and needs to stop. Whether the expectation is there or not, they feel required to do do 5 times the work of the men in their lives. They are the first one up, the last to go to bed, and in between is cooking, getting kids ready for school, getting ready for the day, going to work, doing her job at work while also managing home stuff like making phone calls that need to be made, etc. Get off work, possibly go to the store, come home (possibly picking up kids first, possibly waiting for them to come off the bus). Start work on dinner, change out of work clothes, complete cooking, eat, do dishes, clean kitchen (clean counters, put dry dishes away, wipe refrigerator, scrub floor). Get kids ready for bed, maybe spend an hour with their significant other, then go to bed. Meanwhile what does the man do? Get up 30 minutes before work, 5 minute shower, brush teeth, dress, out the door. Work, come home. plop in a chair and watch TV, maybe play with the kids a while, and eat dinner, more TV, maybe an hour with the wife, then bed. But even if the man in this scenario wants to be helpful, she'll say, nope don't worry about it, or get him to do a few very small things.

I've seen this over and over and over and over again in my life. Society has fit women into this role, and not all certainly, but its a common motif. So we have a generation of psychologically repressed women, and that to me is like... so wrong. I don't think it happened on purpose, but its like they feel they need to be the superhero of the family. The trouble is, that's just not sustainable, its just not. I've felt that way for a long time, and then on TV one time I was over with my dad, and it came on the Dr. Oz program. They literally had several women come on that show, tell their stories, and try to get them to realize they're not OK. So that is work that also needs doing.

I generally stay out of relationships, I'm not interested in the drama that comes with them. One thing I would always squash is that mentality if it came up. I just wouldn't let it happen. It is absolutely not fair to put women into that role where they feel like they need to be up at the crack of dawn and to bed well after midnight, and not stopping through the whole entire day.

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