2019-01-07 16:45:22

I was randomly wondering if the sighting really understand us, or if they portray us correctly? For example the new daredevil, the one on netflix that was absolutely amazing?...
That one, wen he was pretending, I felt like it was pretty good. What do yall think?

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“Yes, sir. I am attempting to fill a silent moment with non-relevant conversation.”
“You don’t tell me how to behave; you’re not my mother!”
“Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.” – Data (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

2019-01-07 17:47:14

I'd say this is a half-and-half kind of situation; there are those who understand us because they know people who have disabilities, and then ther are those (like the government in particular, or some schools, or organizations, and so on) that don't, and have bad perceptions of us because of blind-based organizations like the NFB and the ACB.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2019-01-07 18:19:42

It depends.

It depends on a whole lot of factors. DO you mean right now, or throughout history, because....there were, and are religions that view disability as some sort of divine punishment. There'ss cultures that marginalize disabled people for varying reasons (Japan for example), there's no one standard of disabled throughout the world. What do I mean by that...?

Well, living in the West, you're used to having basic services. Accessible this, or that. You go to somewhere like....say......even another Western nation, and things are different. It may only be a tiny change, but there is no agreed upon universally implemented accessibility standard aroudnd the world. Oh sure you may well say I'm wrong, but.....lemme tel you something. America is *not* the world. I know. Shocking to learn that huh? Try going to Canada, you'll notice subtle differences in how disabled people are treated. Go further afield. Go to the Carribean, or Mexico,again, differences....

So, in short.....it's an impossible question to answer, Fox....because your question is so vague and broad, it's hard to pin down an answer.

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2019-01-07 18:37:12

This is a rather broad subject, though it does fit into the scope Ethin described above in post 2.
There are a bunch of other variables; sometimes friends and family will take it and spin it both ways because it's advantageous to a particular situation.  An example would be if, say, you can demonstrate that you can ride a bike without crashing into obstacles.  The people who see it will then turn around and tell their friends, "So-and-so can do anything and everything you can do, and in some cases they can do it even better!"
On the other hand, if you can equally demonstrate thereafter that there are things you cannot do, the disappointment is evident and can and does become a judgment hammer.  "You're not pushing yourself hard enough!  You're lazy!  You're just wallowing is self-pity!  You can do anything and everything I can do!  What's that?  You don't have a driver's license and you can't get one?  That's no excuse!"
Then there's the other side of the coin.  If first impressions showcase you as a useless imbecile, you'll more than likely forever remain that way.  Go to a fancy dinner and have someone cut up your steak for ya?  Ask them to even help you find your table?  The chances of you being seen as an equall from there on out are rather slim, no matter what you demonstrate thereafter.
The bottom line is that there are people who do know how to deal with the fact that there are blind and VI people in this world, and there are a ton, perhaps the majority, who don't.  It reminds me of a particular parragraph in DC Comics's The Never Ending Battle, where the Martian Manhunter shows up and one of the two agents he shows up to help suddenly turns blazing guns on him and shouts out, "But, he's green!"  Respectfully but firmly, his superior turns to him and says, "That's right, and I'm black.  And you're white-Hispanic!  You gotta problem with any of that?"
Difference, by virtue of what it is, makes us all a little awkward at best, exceptionally violent at worst.  It's one of the many flaws we have as humans and the reason we need to keep ourselves as well tempered, sighted or blind, black or white, male or female, etc etc, as we possibly can.  People will always cast judgment; the privatization political correctness has brought about does not mean that people aren't judgmental anymore overall, but that they're not vocal about it.  It also means that people are afraid to ask questions for fear of beeing seen as ignorant hatemongers.  I'd like to think that humanity overall still possesses common sense, but all I need do to prove that this is a majorly false statement is look at the most recent lawsuits that have been filed, and lest you think it's only Americans doing it, let me quickly put your mind at ease on such matters and point out otherwise.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-07 19:00:47

I still hold with what I said in This topic I'm  damnably sick of the vast majority of representations of blind people in fiction being blind! with a capital blind, and either utterly helpless tiny Tim knockoffs, or super awesome ninja super heros for whom being blind is just another part of their awesomness.

Actually its a bit depressing that in this current storm of diversity and representation disability generally, and blindness in particular is pretty much not getting a look in, but then again, that's how things usually are./

I also admit I have a bloody rotten cold so probably am not exactly at my most objective for discussing this anyway big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-07 19:30:11

@Nocturnus: Well put. Though that goes for both sides, to. If you got sight and you come off as a lazy SOB.....that's not gonna change.

@Dark: Rant incoming....

Daredevil is fiction. Entertainment, made by companies who have far, far more sighted people consuming comics, videogames, uunderwear, whatever else Daredevil is licensed in, than blind people. THey don't want to tone Daredevil down because to them it isn't broken. And....read up on how much money Daredevil brings in. If you had a property that made that much money, would you want to alter it and risk losing millions of dollars in licensing deals, merchandise, all because a few people online are bitching about how a superhero isn't a good representation of your disabiltiy....when there's 99.9% f your fanbase are able bodied and consume the media as pure fantasy and an escape, which it is meant as? I wouldn't want to alter a cash cow for fear of pushing away a chunk of that audience and losing money. I get both sides of the argument, but until Daredevil stops bringing in millions and millions, nothing will change. Blind people will just be the whiners complaining on a tiny corner of the internet to the comic/movie/videogame/TV industry about one character. Because the fanbase is wayyyyyyyy biggr than a few random people.

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2019-01-07 20:58:01

as much as I like daredevil, He's a little, shall we say, rediculous? Of course he has to have a fucking sonar that can reach for miles, and he can here someone being raped a few miles away, even threw the sound of New York, and he continues to here this every night, and seemingly just waits and eventually beats the shit out of the guy who did it in like 5 seconds even though it's been like 10 years sense his training...? ? ...? ? ? ? stupid? Yep! Still a good series though

----------
“Yes, sir. I am attempting to fill a silent moment with non-relevant conversation.”
“You don’t tell me how to behave; you’re not my mother!”
“Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.” – Data (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

2019-01-07 21:02:58

@Ethin
Can you give a few examples that come to mind as far as blind organizations representing us poorly? I'm not disagreeing, I've just heard this said a lot, but I haven't kept up with either one enough to be knowledgeable. I know that it might be somewhat subjective, but I'm just curious...

Trying to free my mind before the end of the world.

2019-01-07 21:33:47

@Fox:

Entertainment, escapism, superheroes. Does that ring a bel? Daredevil was never, ever, EVER meant to be realistic, he's a superhero that can do amazing things. Se my previous post on why that won't change.

Actually, I was hanging out on a game and I had the same discussion on there on a channel. The consensus we reached was...

1. The writers/editors have their way of doing the character.

2. The editors have so much power that if they don't want things to change, nothing will change. There was one in particular, I forget who, who got a writer fired for a tiny, trivial offense.

3. Management wants $$$ and wants the most profit.
4. The blind are a tiny, tiny minority compared to the fanbase as a whole.

5. Again, $$$ rules all.

Also FWIW there were people in that discussion who know the comic industry and big publishers fairly well, and industry news and dirty secrets.

@8: Being way too quick to jump on the litigation bandwagon, for one thing. For fostering a stereotype of blind people in the US as either 'us' or 'them', or NFB and non NFB, or a laundry list of issues I've experienced in my time in the US

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2019-01-07 21:51:26 (edited by Chris 2019-01-07 21:52:06)

People love those dollar signs! $$$$$$$$$$$$!

The problem seems to be purely attitudinal. People don't know, or are scared, or both. I say just keep educating folks. Some people are going to be assholes, and there's not much we can do about it.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-01-07 21:57:33

Yes @Chris, but.....Education and tact.

In other words, don't ram it down their throats, and don't demand stuff and don't threaten them with okay if you don't do X Y Z we'll sue you. That's not education.

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2019-01-07 21:59:35

Also @Chris:

Cultural, as well. Like I said up there in my first post....go to somewhere like China, or India, or Pakistan or South Africa, and note how blind people are treated there, go to Brazil, or Mexico, or Russia and note how blind people are treated. Actually, if you're going to go to places with a lot of ethnic groups, note how each ethnic group treats blind people, actually....

Also, education is not a magic cure all howevver.

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2019-01-07 22:06:01 (edited by Ethin 2019-01-07 22:11:39)

Particular incidents, from http://www.nfbmd.org/aggregator/sources/1:

  • Walmart Sued by Blind Maryland Residents over Self-Service Checkout Kiosks: This is a bit much. A bit ridiculous, even. The woman uses a Kiosk, and the person who's helping her requests an extra $40.00, adding that onto her bill. The kiosk doesn't give her any notice about this, nor does it give her spoken information on her total. They only discover this on the receipt. The problem, of course, is that suing Walmart was a bit much. They could've demanded the money back, and if that failed, they could've taken it to the manager or supervisor of the store. Going all the way up to the court system was a bit bullish.

  • National Federation of the Blind Sues US AbilityOne Commission: Woe. Woe. In this artical, the NFB "Alleges Violation of Federal Transparency Laws and Regulations". "The lawsuit, filed in federal court in Maryland, alleges that AbilityOne violated the Administrative Procedure Act and federal grantmaking and contracting laws when it designated the American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) as a "central nonprofit agency" (CNA) in the AbilityOne program and signed a long-term agreement with AFB. The Administrative Procedure Act requires federal agencies to give public notice and an opportunity for public comment before making changes to their programs and the requirements for federal grants and contracts require competitive procedures to ensure the most qualified bidders are able to apply." This seems like the NFB, again, digging their nose where it doesn't belong. Its another form of the NFB attempting to, yet again, impose their opinions and rules on others (the AFB) whether the AFB likes it or not. The NFB has done this with talking microwaves and other incidents regarding love notes that parents could get for their children with candy and other goods. The NFB partnered with a company to make these little recording boxes that let the parents record love notes to their children. (I wonder if they considered that the children that these notes were meant for, children under the age of six, could kill themselves by chewing and biting it because they don't know any better at that age.) I can't find the source for that one, though Blind Cool Tech did have it at one point.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2019-01-07 22:28:11

Actually Jase I never mentioned dare devil. I personally really dislike most superhero fiction precisely for the generic plotting and stupidly invinsible characters you mention quite aside from any representational concerns, my comments were more generalised according to representations of blind people in pretty much all media I've encountered, even those forms of media where the individual author has far more control than the likes of dare devil and those dreaded committee based corporate franchises you mention.

If you take a look at the topic I referenced in post 5, there are lots of different examples of blind characters from films, computer games, books etc, and not many really have been well rounded characters, being either super or pathetic and always blind with a capital blind.

I however don't agree with you that "its just escapism" is an adequate answer.

Imagine viewing a film from the fifties in which the damsel is nothing but a woman who screams and get captured and the bad guys are a bunch of so called "black cannibals", I don't think saying "well its just escapism so relax" would be okay in this case.

I'm not saying I agree with the ""lets sue everybody" attitude either, but unless someone actually puts the point out there that no, blind people are  often not well represented in fiction, then we won't see too much by way of changes  attitude generally.

Indeed, this is one of the things I was rather hoping to do myself having got my Phd, write on precisely this sort of subject and its certainly something I bring up in book reviews, for example in my latest review for the ya novel Sanctuary by Carrin Lix which you can read here I note the rather commical point that the evil aliens shock horror have computers with raised letters! oh no! behold their strange alienness! while in my review of Birdbox by Josh Malerman which you can Read here I note his inadequacies in looking at a world where everyone must walk around blind folded.

Again I don't make a super issue of it, the vast majority of my reviews don't mention blindness at all, and I'm certainly not going  complain because shock horror, not all books have blind people in them, but when blindness comes up, I will put a word in if the representation isn't done properly, just as I would if we saw the appearence of the damsels and aforesaid black savages big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-07 22:46:58 (edited by JaceK 2019-01-07 22:50:05)

eee@Dark:

That's more of an issue of crafting a character however. Okay, no, you didn't bring up Daredevil specificially, FOx did that, however.......that's an issue of making a character. However.....if you really want to break it down, there's a lot of characters from all walks of life, all abilities, disabilities, and so forth who are poorly crafted. I got sent, by a friend on a game, the Dresden FIles audiobooks read by Spike from Buffy (and they are amazing to listen to btw) but even in that I can pick out characters who are not well fleshed out. Or the series I'm curently reading, the Iron Druid series, again, poorly fleshed out characters. It is absolutely not a blind specific problem of poorly made characters. It's a problem of poorly made characters, period.

EDIT: Try this. Instead of blind characters, try <insert quality here>. How many gay characters are well rounded? How many female characters, black characters, how many non English speaking characters, and so forth? Again, that's just making the point that no, it's not just about blind charcters. To just focus on those is not bringing attention to a wider issue. And, also, poorly written and not well rounded is subjective however. You may say John Doe is porly fleshed out, but I'll disagre as we both have differing standards on what is/isn't well rounded. None of us are the universal law on what is/isn't well rounded for a character.

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2019-01-07 23:15:44

@3 what I found rather interesting is that islam has a positive outlook on blindness. I don't know much about it but I found when I was in Egypt for example rather than being treeted like i was inferior i was embraced everywhere i went and treeted with respect and curtacy. a friend of mine who is muslem had an arranged marriage: which i don't agree with but anyway, point is, her husband was actually really proud to marry a blind woman. that really surprised me. as a lapsed Christian i think we get certain impressions of other religions but Christianity has a lot to answer for when it comes to disabilities.

Who's that trip trapping over My bridge? Come find out.

2019-01-07 23:27:17 (edited by Dark 2019-01-07 23:31:20)

@Jase, while I agree with you that writing a blind character who is just defined by their blindness is an example of a poorly written character, just as the example of a helpless damsel is a poorly written female character, I'm afraid I don't agree that its so difficult to define what the difference between "badly written" and "well written" is, or that we shouldn't point out such examples when they occur, one reason I enjoy writing book reviews myself.

One great acid test for a good character employed by internet reviewer plinkit is  to see how much you can say about a character without mentioning their appearance or profession, EG describe the character's personality and motivation, rather than just their essential plot function, or indeed transcends stereotypical beliefs about whatever specific minority the person belongs to.

Look at princess Leia from the original starwars film. Though basically for most of the plot she remains pretty much a damsel in distress and at least partly a motivating force for Luke and Han's actions, there is so  more to her than that, she's tough, cynical and also quite a diplomat when needed. Indeed, when I see original starwars now I'm rather amazed just at how much work  into fleshing out the characters, giving them multiple motivations and different sides to their personalities even in such relatively uncomplicated science fantasy.

This btw is also why I dislike super heros so much myself.

Oh, and I'd be interested to know which characters in Dresden you thought were particularly thin. I read them a few years ago, and while I enjoyed the books to some extent, I did think they had some pretty glarring holes, though I don't remember them in enough detail to say specifically who and where.
@sirbadger, I had a very similar experience in egypt myself, particularly I was surprised how much people took note of my academic achievements, which was actually a little uncomfortable.
Interestingly enough, a lot of enlightenment thinking around blindness was based on the idea that blind people could not see the light of god and so  were morally inferior, Leonado Devinci had quite the treatise on the subject. There was also the attitude that since blind people could not reason correctly, they had to achieve "good grace" through hard, repetitive work, hence the movement for asylums for the blind etc.

Btw, one of my phd markers, was a professor who has done a lot of work on the history of the concept of blindness, and his book was quite fascinating on the subject, especially corilating past attitudes, with some sadly persistent present ones.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-08 00:20:21

@JaceK, nice use of absolutes vs subjective ridicule in post 15.
To compare fiction to reality we have to take truth entirely out of the equation and just make movies for every particular individual in the world in order to make them even somewhat relevant to everyone.  I know blind people who can keep a house spotless freaky freaking clean; I'm not one of them.  I know blind people who can hear people breathing normally from across a room; I can't.  I know blind people who can do exceptional measuring on the fly... I can sort of do that.  I know blind people who can't use a computer and who need me to do just about everything for them when it comes to technology.  I know blind people who can't carry a tune in a bucket; thankfully, I'm not one of those!  I'm not saying I'm great at it, but I'm not one of the former side, either!
The point here is that to equally represent blind people on a fictional level you'd have to get up close and personal with every blind person who exists.  Some blind people seem to possess supernatural abilities; we obviously know they don't but have instead just adapted well to their environments to the point that they do things better than many others.  Some blind people have other disabilities as well as blindness; some of those disabilities make them exceptional and unique in their own ways.  There are blind people who can tell you on what day a specific date was, blind people who can remember things that happened to them when they were two years old, blind people who can tell you almost exactly what time it is based on their very environment.
And then there are blind people who you wish you could avoid altogether, but for every single one of those blind individuals you wish you didn't know I could probably point you to just as many sighted individuals who are just as bad as, if not worse than they are.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-08 00:44:49 (edited by Chris 2019-01-08 00:45:56)

You know what really irritates me? People that think that God will magically cure my blindness. If that was true, my whole body could regenerate. I wouldn't be blind because the retinas would knit themselves together if damaged, I could grow new limbs if they were lost, etc. Where does this nonsense come from? If Christianity is such a great religion, people would accept me the way I am because our almighty lord and master made me this way. *sigh*

That's interesting about blind people and Islam. Why is that? I've never received positive vibes from Islam. The whole "kill the infidels!" thing doesn't sit well with me.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2019-01-08 00:48:16

The thing with Islam is there's at least two sects of it, however. Also, since when did you wish you were a salamander, Chris?

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2019-01-08 01:20:10

@Nocturnus, that is precisely the point, making blindness just a trait of a character rather than a defining feature, and why I tend to applaud when a blind character does a little more than just be well "blind" and  wish it happened a little more often. Indeed, if there is a stat rule here its make a character or indeed a person a person in their own right rather than assuming one trait of there appearance or history dictates all their attitudes/skills/abilities or interests.

In the same vane, I am no expert here, but last I checked "kill the infidel" was no more a part of most muslims beliefs than kill the heathen was a part of most Christians. Every group out there has its lunatics.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-08 02:02:11

Dark has a point on the Christian and Muslim kill the such and such's.  that having been said, I think to some extent I do agree with Chris on Christians automatically jumping the gun soon as they hear the newest member of their church is blind and wanting to bless their eyes and pray for miraculous healing.  Funnily enough, those are the same Christians who, when someone dies against their prayers of healing, either let go of God completely out of anger, or try to feed everyone else a bunch of spurious nonsense about God not having to explain himself and humans not being capable of understanding the reasons why God does what he does and how it's not right to question why these things happen.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, the greatest threat to the church is the church itself.  Christendom does not come together on most things, and that, is probably the saddest fact going for Christianity as a whole.  People who turn away from God or who have reasons to not seek out anything of the sort have too often done away with the idea of God in general because of what is reflective of the church and its people.  I'll take it a step further; if your pastor preaches nothing but fire and brimstone and how you will be infinitly judged for every finite decision you made in a finite life lived in a finite universe, you're probably not going to wana be there, no matter what the pluses are.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2019-01-08 05:59:49

I think that hole  emphasis on blindness and faith healing thing might be a little more regional or confined to certain groups of Christians, since it isn't something I have ever   experienced on this side of the  Atlantic, though the anglican church isn't always friendly to blind people for quite different reasons, I'll spare everyone the long and slightly nasty tale of my mum trying to get ordained and the church basically being able to say things to a blind person (and a female blind person at that), which pretty much no other organisation could ever get away with disability wise, though of course that was 25 years ago and things might have changed these days.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-01-08 11:29:43

Random Encounter with would-be faith-healers is not too rare in the parts of the US I'm familiar with, but in the since that Random Encounter with a miniboss is not rare: most RE will be "Na, I've got it" grind-sessions, and those hardly give any XP after a couple levels.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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    George... Don't do that.

2019-01-08 12:35:47

Hi.

i had it quite often happen that I was approached by religious persons wanting to pray that I could get my sight back.
Well great people, so basically you want me to relearn everything?
To put it into perspective, I went fully blind at the age of 3, i am now 21. So putting it in a nutshell, you want me to learn how to orientate myself, learn to read and write again? Cope with modern technology which I have never used with my eyes?
When I explained that to them, in some cases they went absolutely horse shit, although, horse shit has more credibility than these strange people. Anyway, they went somewhere along the lines of, than your blindness is a heavenly punishment from god it self.
Is it? Oh yeah wait, I remember now, when I was 2 years old, I snuck up to all mighty lords heavenly house and stole some candy bars, that could be the reason he punished me ... sounds logical, does it?
I enjoy beeing called blasfemic or what ever big_smile.

Greetings Moritz.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.