2019-02-01 15:52:52

Just finished adding nav tags and headings and so on. But I find it hard to test how effective they are, as I'm not an experienced screen reader user. So, I've put up a demo version of the update online, for those willing to test and share their experience. It works in the browser, just like the normal demo.

Link to the beta: https://www.pathofadventure.com/beta/

Thanks in advance! Now I'll go and see how I can improve those stats...

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-01 18:48:51

Hi keeweed + team,

I just gave it a quick try and am rather impressed. It feels _almost_ overengineered with convenience, but after you internalized the layout of headings and such it really is much easier and quicker to navigate. It might be a little less convenient with iOS' voice over because it generally has less options to navigate, but I think it will be a nice improvement nevertheless.
Imho you could've stopped implementing this things weeks ago for PoA already was a nice game with really high accessibility. But you're still working on these minor but neat improvements - you have my huge respect for that.

2019-02-01 19:52:56 (edited by KenshiraTheTrinity 2019-02-01 20:16:00)

Yeah this definitely speeds things along, although I was a little confused about the choice groups bit at first but think I get it now. I guess there are already few enough choices that separating them into their own group seems a little much but may prove useful later on. I had originally thought that the first group would be the weapon, item and magic tabs and the second pertaining to combat but this works too.

As stated by the previous post, huge props to you for the attention you're giving to the already great accessibility of the game.

2019-02-01 21:14:55

I agree with Honk and Kenshira here, the access attention  here is fantastic, especially considering that the game was already playable and your just making things all the easier, and I love that the attack buttons now say "breaking" on them (that will save me a few deaths I think), big_smile.

My only miner point, is I do wonder if there are slightly too many headings? So, having headings on the main screen for "stats" "you" and "story" for "choices" and then the buttons under that is great (especially in battles), but having a heading for "choice group 1" and "choice group 2" seems a trifle excessive, unless of course your planning a situation in future where there are six or seven different buttons beneath each set of choices, since  having a player need to flick through too many headings might be a bit cumbersome at times.

I also would suggest with the inventory either have headings for different groups of inventory objects, such as weapons, supplies, mushrooms etc but leave the text of said items the same, or to have a heading for each item individually but not section headings, since at the moment those extra section headings are  one more thing to flick past.

for example, if you wanted to quickly find an antidote, you'd need at the moment to flick past the heading saying weapons, then flick past all your weapons, then heading saying "supplies" etc.

Flicking of course is a fairly quick action, so it doesn't take long, but if the player is best to navigate inventory by flicking past a heading through each thing, then better reduce the number of flicks, whilst if the player has just two or three section headings to flick between and read from there, best to let the player find each section as quickly as possible.

Hope this makes sense and thanks again for the awesome game.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-02-01 22:34:02

Jumping into this thread after being hooked on this game for a few days. I gone into the castle and almost killed the final boss... Must try harder!

I agree with Dark's comments about headings. The one place where I think having headings is really useful is for separating the tabs at the top from the rest of the game and for separating the different inventory sections, while the separate headings for choice group 1, 2... etc might be a little excessive.

I have 1 suggestion to ease navigation, or at least make it less necessary to actually navigate around the screen to get information. Consider adding a live region to the page and putting the most important messages to it as they come up. There are Javascript libraries to do this, like this one
A live region is a section of the webpage that a screen reader speaks automatically if it changes. So, what this script essentially lets you do is get screen readers to speak any text you want at any time. I think for this game, putting any messages that come up above the buttons as well as the messages you get in the battle log as they come up would help greatly, because it would cause both VoiceOver and Talkback to automatically read things like how much damage your attack did right after you tap on a weapon to use it, without you having to manually go back up through the interface to read the battle log.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2019-02-01 23:57:21

Ok I thought it was just me who felt like there were too many choice headings but guess not. But one for story and one for choices will suffice. And like Dark said about separating the inventory by category i.e weapons, items, spells and the like would help.

2019-02-03 15:52:37 (edited by Keeweed 2019-02-03 16:42:04)

Thanks for the excellent feedback guys! This really helps me to understand how you play the game. Also, I'm glad to hear it's an improvement. I will follow up your advise and remove the choice group headings and those of each weapon and item inside the inventory, but leave the category headers.

@105, I have put the tabs at the top in <nav> tags, assuming screens reads would do something with that. Are you saying it would be helpful if I'd add a header saying 'navigation' or something there as well? And thanks for the live region suggestion, that looks very interesting! It's a bit too much work to squeeze it into this update, but I really like the idea and might add it in the future!

Another thing, I'm going to tune down the difficulty for the first 2 or 3 characters. I've been receiving some negative reviews about this, and I think they have a point - although, I would appreciate people being a bit more constructive, haha. Also, I'm going to turn off the resurrect option, because its really upsetting certain people too. Pity, but I understand it.
All in all, it's going to take a few more days before the update is out.

EDIT: about the inventory, since I'm using h1 for weapons, items, etc, and h2 for each separate item, I'd expected that screen readers would allow you to flick easily to the right h1 first and than flick to the right h2, but if I understand you all correctly, there's no distinction between h1 and h2 headers?

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-03 16:46:34

I'll look forward to seeing those updates.
As regards difficulty, well everyone is different. I actually like the fact I've had to get used to how different things work in order to play the game,  that excepting  bad luck and weapon breakage I've tended to do better each time.

One other rather simple thing you might do with difficulty, is explain at least a little more of certain mechanics somewhere.
For example, both spells and mushrooms say they have a "temporary" affect. I lost one game because the evil sorcerer was casting spells on me and I was waiting for them to run out without realizing that "temporary" here means up until the end of the battle.

Likewise, I once used mushrooms on space 46 since I knew there would be a nasty encounter coming up next time, and when I'd actually got there the effect had worn off meaning that I'd essentially wasted the mushrooms.

it might also help to notify players of the affects of certain items when they find them, for example I had to use a detox mushroom to find out what they did, and only then realised how important they were strategically.
Thus, just making a wee bit more information available to players might help get some people past that initial frustration curve.

Personally, one thing I really admire about the game, is the fact that difficulty comes from managing resources correctly  trying to weight the random dice throw as much in your favour as possible, rather than through having to minimax and balance a stupidly huge number of stats, indeed I like the fact that this  one rpg where the outcome of each battle is not automatically decided by the equipment of the monster and player before the fight starts.

while that naturally does make life easier  once you understand things, at the same time, it does mean that understanding the game is a little more than just "If your a warrior equip all the heaviest armour" big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-02-03 17:50:31

Regarding headings, heading level does make a difference, but not as much on a phone with a touch screen.

On both a computer and iOS and Android, screen readers have keyboard commands to move to the next and previous heading level, usually it's pressing 1 through 6 or Shift+1 through 6. They also have a key to go to next ore previous heading of any level (H and Shift+H). On touch screens you have gestures that let you quickly move through certain elements, but because a touch screen has a more limited set of things you can do you'll generally just get options to move to Any Heading, Any landmark or Any form control rather than specific types of landmark or heading level.

So, marking up groups of items with a level 1 heading, and the items themselves with a level 2 heading is helpful on a computer or if someone has a keyboard connected to their phone, because you can tell the screen reader to go only level 1 headings, but on a touch screen you can only tel it you want to navigate through any heading no matter what its level is.

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

2019-02-03 17:52:10

I completely agree with Dark.  plus, this is a roguelike, and they're not renoun for being easy.  Personally I really enjoy the challenge and experimentation, getting increasingly far each time.

2019-02-03 17:53:54

Would you consider adding a rare resurrection artifact maybe im later difficulties or extending the path with new story elements im a future update? I'm picturing a situation where new paths with all new adventures would unlock as you finish what's available.

2019-02-03 18:37:57

@Dark, excellent feedback. I'm going to explain the temporary effect somewhere. I'm also thinking about adding a certain character early in the game that gives you tips, about all kinds of things. Or perhaps spread them out over multiple characters. Also, it's great to read how you discover and enjoy those core mechanics of the game. I put a lot of effort into getting those kind of things right and I'm glad it's being appreciated smile

@109, thanks for that explanation! It makes total sense now. Really, this kind of inside info is very helpful.

About the difficulty, I agree with you guys, and I enjoy the challenge too. But, I've got to consider other types of players as well. For one, because they're leaving really bad reviews, haha. Plus, there are 5 difficulties, and I won't be changing the higher ones, so there will be enough of a challenge left.

@111 Yes! I was just thinking about something like that, the resurrect artifact, I mean. In fact, I was thinking to maybe hand them out on game over, so the player can save them up and use them whenever he dies next time. This could be a nice combo with the progress topic that Honk posted a video about, a while ago. I have to work out the details, though, to prevent grinding.
About new adventures, I'm not planning on actually adding new adventures or extending the path, but I want to fill the path with more events and items. I want every run to be different from the others. One thing I was thinking about is to not reveal the end boss just like that, but make it something the player has to work out himself, as a little sidequest, somehow.

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-03 20:08:13

I like the idea of giving players tips along the way, since personally I tend to think that difficulty in the game comes from understanding the mechanics  and using what you find, also not being put off by the loud mouthed people with no patience (you should've seen what happened with a dark room and the Ensign).

for resurrection, I a resurrection item sounds good since there have been times (like the last game I got to the castle), where it would've been really handy to have in reserve, though I do see the point of making sure players can't hold more items.

In terms of extending the game, I actually like the length the game has at the moment, what would be cool would be more encounters, traps, monsters, different locations to visit  and  extending some of the mechanics a little to throw even more fun into the mix.

For example:

Towers of testing: Ruins and dungeons are cool, but a successive tower with a harder challenge on each floor would be fun, and be a nice way to test your greed vs, survival instincts.

Blessings: It'd be fun to have temples to gods where you could earn a blessing which changed the game in some way giving you benefits so long as you adhered to the god's own wishes. For example, perhaps you could have a defense plus 4 blessing, but to retain it you'd have to use no edged weapons, or have a life plus 2 blessing, but be required to abstain from mushrooms.

Ranged weapons, usable just before a fight starts to hit a monster, but with the disadvantage that after using a ranged weapon the enemy always gets the first round of attack, plus of course once you've used your arrow or thrown your dagger its gone.

Combat conditions: What I mean here are random affects that sometimes happen during fights to make things even more interesting such as you and the monster losing speed due to muddy ground conditions, or both getting a higher defence due to a narrow passage, you could make life particularly interesting by varying these in environment.

Poisoned mushrooms: At the moment none identified mushrooms really aren't too bad, but it makes sense there are some nasty ones out there.

Cursed weapons: what is a roguelike without cursed weapons? Actually cursed weapons would be even more fun here, since with weapon breakage as a thing, it'd be quite an amusing game change to be wailing away with that cursed minus 2 attack sword in hopes of it breaking big_smile.

Potion brewing: I always end up finding more mushrooms than I need, it'd be sort of cool to be able to brew potions out of these, perhaps to make them safer to drink or perhaps with the threat of them blowing up in your face.

Previous character's  body:  It'd be rather fun (as well as potentially an ease to difficulty), if after your character died, your next run you could encounter the previous character's body containing one or other of their items. Obviously not their hole inventory (all those grave robbing goblins), but maybe just a single item chosen at random from the pool of any items your current character didn't have.

And before I go totally off the rails with suggestions methinks I'll stop there big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-02-03 21:34:32

I'm just going to flat out say it; I'm more than willing to pay for extra content.  your work on access and willingness to go the extra mile is fantastic, and I hope the game can evolve to what you want it to.

2019-02-03 23:50:49

Keeweed wrote:

[...] Another thing, I'm going to tune down the difficulty for the first 2 or 3 characters. I've been receiving some negative reviews about this, and I think they have a point - although, I would appreciate people being a bit more constructive, haha. Also, I'm going to turn off the resurrect option, because its really upsetting certain people too. Pity, but I understand it. [...]

Regarding the difficulty, that is actually a really interessting topic. More difficult games are more challenging and mentally engaging. You as a developer have to decide what type of experience you want your players to have. More importantly, some games demand a certain approach on this topic. The Mario games would never have become so popular if they'd been really difficult. On the other hand dark souls couldn't work with an easy mode.
So imho you shouldn't think necessarily about making a game easier to meet the players demands. You should make it easier if you think the game is more fun that way. In this special situation I however think an easier first playthrough could engage the player more, teach them about the mechanics and give them more motivation to tackle the harder options. So turning down the difficulty at the beginning might improve the overall game experience.
Or maybe not? I actually didn't think of the first option as to difficult. And it felt rather rewarding to beat the game as warrior. So no complains from me about the difficulty... But yet again, difficulty balance is one of the hardest thing in game development. Btw, Game Maker's Toolkit, the channel I've posted earlier, has lots of excellent videos regarding that topic if you're interessted.

About that micro transaction resurrection... Yeah, at first I also felt a bit taken aback about that. But I think the problem I had with it was the extremely toxic atmosphere against micro transactions in general at the moment. After I settled down a bit I found it totally okay. Roguelikes have permadeath by default, so when I die I accept my fate and don't bother with that option. I think of it as a way to support you as a developer and get a reward for that, not really of a pay to win option. But thats probably because I try to be very generous, I am not surprised that there has been an outrage from other gamers. big_smile
Before you patch this one out I will buy me a second life next game over just to support you.

2019-02-04 21:55:28

Cheers for all the support guys, that's really awesome.

Great ideas Dark! Some of them are already on my list, others I might just take over big_smile And thanks for reminding me of that channel, Honk, I'm going to binge it one of these days.

I've just released the Android update, now on the iOS...

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-04 22:00:46

Woo thanks!

2019-02-04 22:09:01

Oh and be aware, the update kills your current run, so only update when you're ready.

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-04 23:35:10

I found a minor bug where switching one of the bottom tabs would make me not be able to pick the choices for that tab unless I change one of the top ones and change back. I do like the new tabs though.

On another note, how much would it hurt the game's balance if you increased the exp gain of stronger monsters just a little bit? I'm not talking avout the bosses, although they might as well be factored in, but what about the regular and wraith type monsters?

2019-02-05 01:30:24

@Keeweed I'll be looking forward to the update on Ios, and glad you like the suggestions. Like Dan I'd be more than willing to donate to support future work, especially if this meant buying more game content, EG selling extra characters or locations to visit.

Also btw, you might want to check out the Applevis page for path of adventure since there has also been some discussion of the game over there too and there are people there who aren't on this site and visa versa:
https://www.applevis.com/apps/ios/games/path-adventure

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-02-05 10:54:09

@Kenshira, hmm that's weird. Just checked the code and don't see anything strange. I've put up a new web build, could you check if it happens there as well? Link to web build: https://www.pathofadventure.com/beta2/
I'll have a look at the XP. Do you feel XP is not going fast enough at the end?

@Dark, the support from this community is already fantastic! Couldn't wish for more. For now, I'm going to focus on adding content and leave the revenue model alone for a while. I just hope the game gets some more traction, so that I can continue working on it.
Ooh, thanks for letting me know about Applevis! I was keeping an eye on it, but not close enough, it seems wink

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-05 11:37:18

@Keeweed, glad things are going well in terms of the game getting out there.
One thing you might consider revenue wise which I've seen some developers do, is simply have in ap purchices which effectively are! just a donation to support the game.

for example the puzzle game Black box has purchases like "buy the developer a coffee" or "buy the developer a Burrito" see https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/blackbo … 69578?mt=8

That I thought was a nice idea, since it didn't try to specifically make the game into a major payment system, totally avoided freemium nasties, or even inconvenience people with adds, but did let people help a little extra if they could, and we're well aware that apple aren't exactly charitable towards developers.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2019-02-05 15:10:29

@keeweed I'm still experiencing the bug in the demo build. Wonder if anyone else has this problem.

As for the bit about exp being too slow, I only feel like that in the higher difficulties where you have 1 bonus stat to start with. I felt like there weren't enough opportunities to pour points into the boss stat and have enough other stats to survive, thereby making survival more dependant on luck and less on skill. If this was how you intended it to be then maybe there could be another balancing solution.

I also saw some of the reviews you were talking about and yeah, saying that something id a waste of time without a constructive reason why isn't exactly helpful, and in my opinion isn't your falt at all. Anyway, very curious to see what more you have planned.

2019-02-05 18:17:39

@Dark, I know some developers do this and it crossed my mind also. But, it's not really in my nature to ask for donations, haha. And I doubt how effective it is in the end.

@KenshiraTheTrinity, that's a bugger. I think I'll postpone the apple update until this is fixed. Did you experience this issue also in the earlier beta that I posted?
Link to earlier beta: https://www.pathofadventure.com/beta/

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468

2019-02-05 18:56:46

And... if it happens in the earlier beta, could you try the 1.3.3 demo? Sorry for asking all this, but I'm trying to find out where it went wrong.

Link to the 1.3.3 demo: https://www.pathofadventure.com/demo_133/

Thanks!

Developer of text-based roguelike Path of Adventure.
Get it on Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta … fadventure
Download from the App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/app/path-of-ad … 1449457468