I thought you were better than that Enes.
Any credibility you had from your previous posts arguing this matter is now lost on me, as it's clear that you apparently need to be punished for stealing like a child with a bag of candy, since just being told it's wrong isn't good enough for you, when it is one of the basic moral rules of society, which, if you haven't noticed, you benefit allot from weather you like it or not.
I still appreciate your computer knowledge, but you've lost my respect, for what it's worth (probably not much) and that's fine.
I've reported post 120, because while giving out the link to a VPN should obviously never be punished on a fare forum, suggesting and encouraging people to use it for piracy is plainly not okay.
If you can't control your self than I think you should head on back to the kickass torrent forums to enjoy their safe little echo chamber full of other people who intentionally choose to stay ignorant of any consequences outside of their own selfish little reality.
Take jimmy dub and Seto with you too please... You can all have fun sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming la la la while the world burns around you together. :-D

To the person who brought up Blind Mice Movie Vault, Jace, back in 111, I'm just gonna point out that that particular service is completely legal. It is, by definition, providing content for the disabled, granted its membership isn't as tight as, oh, bookshare or any other similar library, but what they're doing is not in any way violating the law. Besides, they are quite intentionally not distributing the full movie. It is merely a copy of the movie's audio track with the descriptive overlay. Big difference. Now when all the streaming services get their ass in line and start offering it? Then who knows. So far Netflix seems to be winning, as well as Amazon. Hulu? Well my slogan for that has always been screw you Hulu, ironically a perfect rhyme on all counts. Lol! The problem is that not only have they refused to provide descriptive content - content which, quite frankly is already available, their app is a shit-pile not just from the accessibility standpoint, but just the app in general. They also haven't done closed captioning which has been available commercially a lot longer. So I've wrote them off as a bad mistake. Youtube tv doesn't have anything, but the Google rep I was talking to after canceling my account was actually really understanding and did want to keep in mind the lack of descriptive content as my reason of canceling so they could forward that onto the team so that can hopefully be improved. But I digress. The main issue at hand here is that the movie vault is not illegal. I mean, let's be real. If they were doing it illegally, would they be in the same position they are now, a highly successful business of substores selling various products? Answer that question yourself.

I would also like to point out that ever since... I think it was 2016-2017... yes, some time around the start of either last year or 2016... it is now legal for the NSA to hack VPNs to enforce the law. (Though considering the fact that they themselves don't know how to code (thank you, NSA tool dumps) and contract programmers who are *not* security professionals, and they've been hacked three times already.... well, their "security" is questionable at best.) I operate a VPN myself -- but I ain't giving out any more accounts or details since I think I can guess on how it will be used . There's only one user who uses it right now.

Firstly defender, everything written in that post I wrote is 100% legal.  Encouraging piracy is clearly freedom of speech, as well as is using a vpn.  Also as I have stated dozens of times before here,  the piracy as stealing argument  is flawed on many counts, and is copyright lobby bullshit. Also, feel free to report all my posts, I honestly couldn't care less. I have absolutely no moral quandaries with anything I do related to this, as I do not view this as wrong at any level. BTW, I won't be punished by people like you. Glad to know the definition of free speech here, (shout down and sensor everyone who state opinions that make you feel uncomfortable, or which challenge your worldview)
As for the american government, the US should definitely  pull out and stop invading foreign nations. As someone living outside the US, you would be amazed at the level of justified  hate felt towards the US. The US is meddling in the afairs of almost every nation on the planet, most recently by training and arming terrorists in syria under the pretence of fighting isis.

Let me destroy this gentrified freedom-of-speech concept too.

Freedom of speech does not actually mean you can say whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, no matter what. Freedom of speech simply means you are allowed to hold opinions that your government does not hold.
If you went out and started preaching on a street corner that people should break the law, and were encouraging them to commit crimes (violent ones especially, but not exclusively) you could get yourself in a whole lot of hot water.

A VPN by its nature is often understandable. Some DRM is draconian. I agree with these things.

But let's just remember to keep boiling it down.

We're talking about audio game piracy here. Audio game piracy is inexcusable. There is no defense. If you are defending audio game piracy, or are even encouraging it, then you are a potential danger to the developers in this community, and need to be removed for their own safety.
If you don't like that, then maybe have a good long think about the need to get for free what it might otherwise cost you a little pride or a few dollars to snag. If you don't have the money, or if your country won't let you buy the game legally, then there's always the route of asking someone if they'll help you. And if you can't stomach that, then ask yourself whether or not you really need the game in the first place.
Look, I get it. Throwing yourself out there is scary and bewildering and maybe even galling. I do sympathize. But do it anyway. Trust us to stomp on anyone who treats you badly for doing it. This is the best all-around alternative to cracking audio games.

When it comes to region-specific DVDs, country restrictions on programs, vicious exchange rates, tariffs and the like, heaven knows there are other ways besides piracy. Remember that I've suggested in previous posts that there are cases where piracy might be a necessary evil, of sorts. This is never, ever true for audio games. That's what I keep coming back to, Enes.

If you can't accept this, then please don't try and come back when the mods finally ban you. JimmyDub has already come back (under a name like Dubdubdubdubdubdub or some such), sent me an obscene private message and all. If your morality is such that you think you are entitled to free things just because you want them, kindly go elsewhere.

One thing though: I'm' in agreement about meddling, by and large. There are a lot of countries that really might've done well to keep their noses out of other people's business.

Enes, I'm going to pose you a moral challenge. If you can give me a moral answer to it, I'll rescind what I've said about you. If you can't, then you're stuck.

Ready? Here goes.

Let's ignore written legislation for a moment, since it's such a twisted mess.
Someone has made something, put it up for sale at a clearly established price and hopes you'll pay that price in order to obtain the item. This person has poured dozens, maybe even thousands, of hours into the creation and perfection of this product they're trying to sell.
For clarification, the product is a luxury item. You do not require this item to live or prosper. Your life may be somewhat enriched by it, but you will not suffer unduly without it.
Are you, someone who wishes to obtain this product, entitled to take it so long as you have the means? Or should you pay the requested price for it? If you can get away with sneaking it under your coat and getting away, is that morally permissible because you aren't being caught?

The challenge is this.
After reviewing this scenario, provide a logical and moral reason why a person in search of this product should ever be able to obtain it for free on their own, without something like a giveaway involved. Explain, if you think you can, a scenario wherein a would-be product owner gets to circumvent the annoying necessity of paying what they owe for a product.
Imagine you are the person who has just taken an item for free. You are now facing the product creator and must explain to him or her what you did and why, and why it was justified.

Go ahead.

@138, we could ask you the same thing. Theft of physical items is quite literally the same as theft of physical items, considering that, with digital products, someone can steel a product that is fairly priced (hell, someone could underprice a product -- say it's worth $250.00 but they price it all the way at $80.00, causing them to lose profit as a deliberate consequence, but making it easier for others to buy), and then send that product to *anyone*. Software cracking only is particularly acceptable if you require it (i.e. a screen reader) but no alternatives are available. And you did not answer Jades question, either. Please do that before posing your own -- your evasion of Jade's question only slams home the salient point that you need to be removed from this community because you advocate piracy of software and audio games (which, might I remind you, are luxury items, not items you need) rather than buying them like all the rest of us do. The only things a person needs to survive are the three basic needs of humanity: consumables, clothing and shelter. That's all. You need nothing else to survive. You don't need a computer, you don't need a book, you don't need a screen reader, you don't need games. You could easily survive on those three basic needs until your demise (we had to do it for many millions of years, and before that we only had two basic needs before clothing was created -- consumables and shelter, of which there was plenty). Is it nice to have what you have? Yes. Is it a necessity to have what you have? No. A lot of us on this forum forget the major fact that we have far more than some people out there. There are many people out there who don't have two of the three basic needs of humanity and only have the clothes on their back. These people, might I remind you, starve to death because of it.

Okay, before this gets truly out of hand:

1. Some of the greatest attrocities against countries are committed by their own governments in many cases. Just look at the way certain dictatorships have lined their own pockets at the expense of workers.
2. Enes, I actually agree with you a little bit, in that while the internet may not be an absolute necessity for life, it is far more than just idle whimsy at this point. We start disagreeing on books though. If you're downloading a textbook, or a book of poetry you're using for a literature class, then okay, fine. But if all you want books for is so that you aren't bored? You want to maybe read a James Patterson on your next long train trip? You really, really, really wanna get that new Stephen King book? I'm not sure I bite. I'm a huge fan of reading, and I encourage other people to read, but we're going to stay away from the reading piracy thing.
3. If you can agree that there is never a situation where cracking an audiogame is okay, then we might actually be able to sorta kinda meet in the middle. Your talk of piracy suggests that you're okay with it in almost any circumstance, but if you're just as outraged by people pirating audio games and other small indy developers (of books, music, whatever) as I am, then we're almost on the same page.

If not, however, I still do challenge you to come up with a scenario that justifies the circumvention of requirements for acquiring the right to use and possess something that someone else has made and then put strictures upon.

MODERATION!
@enes, your tone priar to post 142 is less than civil, your ideas are less than moral, and your qualifications to suggest that you have any right to push them on other people are nonexistent.  jayd is in the process of creating a game; Joseph has just released a game that is being valued quite immensely, and I?  As a staff of the moderation panel and a content creator on many spectrums ranging from music to writing, can truthfully say that your ideas are destructive to society overall.  Create something that takes you tons of time and chunks of resources beside, have it freely distributed, show us that you have done so without complaining that you've received nothing for your work and efforts, then come back and discuss the subject with us maturely.  You'll more than likely say you've broken no rule on this forum because it's not written clearly enough to satisfy your desires; I contest and will hold to the fact that your overall disrespect and the lack of care for what others think about what you say and how you're saying it is in and of itself a personal attack on the majority of the community, content creators, and distributors alike.  You may feel free to conduct yourself as you see fit wherever you go, but you're not going to continue doing it here!  Carry on as you have and I will personally ban you because you are hardly contributing anything of worth with your vulgarity, your suppositions, and your less than open minded analysis which only takes into consideration that you inherit something that benefits you and not the people who make it.  Yes, this is a warning!

Well I personally can agree with, or at least understand the reasoning behind, allot of what Enes is saying, and I could before as well.
Stuff like the (essential) accessibility market being cornered by companies with draconian licensing, or the fact that non fiction books are held captive under the same cash grab schemes as fiction ones for many publishing companies, even if outwardly they are fare, or even the fact that if an artist isn't making royalties off the product they've created, and updates are also paid for up front if their are any, than the publishers really are just selling identical copies and therefore it isn't quite the same thing as stealing, at least not from the creators... Or the argument that without payment for a product that took lots of R&D or production time to create, the next product from that company may never become a reality, yet the profit margins are way too high to explain away that easily, and the top executives are making hundreds of thousands every year while playing the stock and real estate markets and storing half that money in offshore bank accounts.

That's why I got so upset when he decided to throw that all away by saying we should all crack anything we want and here's how to do it, so have fun guys!
It's a waste, and yeah, their is a line you can cross, and he did, and that sucks because he makes allot of good points, many of which I've thought about my self.
Even if that line isn't a personal one, it's a forum rule, which he knows.

I too despise the policies of most large publishers, and I also hate overly restrictive DRM, not just as a direct annoyance but also as a concept.
And I think most people do, but most people are also in touch with reality enough to know that without big publishers, many author's would have never been able to share their work with the world, and without any DRM, we wouldn't be able to have many of the services we enjoy, like Spotify, Kindle, Audible, or Netflix, because said publishers would get cold feet about it, and just make their own terrible services, which was what was happening even just a few years ago.
For instance the reason we are able to download music from Youtube legally is because contracts have been signed between Google and Soni, and others as well.
Searching torrents and shady download sites can be difficult and dangerous, especially for beginners, so isn't it better if we can enjoy things legally even just for the convenience of it? :-)

I'm sorry for getting so fired up and personal about it, your right I was more so than you were and I knew that even when I wrote it :-D. People who refuse to see a middle ground have always gotten to me even as a kid, and I thought we were having a constructive argument before you posted that VPN and told people to use it for piracy. I was shocked by that because I was always really impressed with your computer knowledge, and many of the points you were making, as I've mentioned before, made allot of sense, but breaking the forum rules so obviously like that was really disappointing to see.
It doesn't mean I can't still get something out of what your saying though, and I should be mature enough to remember that and not let my emotions take over, even if I still believe in the message behind all I have said.

@enes and everyone who has said the copyright trolls/major publishers are abusive/controlling: 100% agreeable points made on all counts. Yes, copyright blows. Yes, the very people that make the damn law don't make it easily accessible, or if they do, it is about as convoluted as the moral grayareas concerning it! But no, that doesn't mean fight fire with fire and steal. Because, as much as it sucks to admit it considering how out of hand drm has gotten, the original point of drm was, quite obviously, prevent stealing. Until it got into a whole anticompetitive race *I'm looking at you, Keurig and HP*. And yes, the drm has, in the end, almost always managed to backfire and affect legitimate customers more than the pirates. But deep down we know that they were quite obviously not intending! to be a pain in the ass to customers. Were they at times? Absolutely. But whether they were or not, it was never alright to steal the actual work. Even if publishers take the better part of every $0.99 song sold. The argument can be made about the ratio of pirates to honest buyers for a highly financially successful individual or entity. Still doesn't mean you should steal the content. Which is why I've said it before and I'll say it again. The drm strippers that actually check to see if content has been legitimately purchased are the ones that you want. Legally correct? No. Morally correct? I at least think so. I mean, you've bought a program or media and you want full control over it? Have at it! Be free to do as you want so long as it doesn't harm of interfere with the freedom of others. So, it makes no difference to the artists or authors, especially the damn publishers, if you go ahead and gain control of your own personal copy. just as long as you don't go distributing it across the net. It's as simple as that. Audio games are a definite and absolute no in that respect. Well, I'm not saying drm strippage, as off hand I can count literally only one game that I've honestly felt needed drm stripping and that was Private Detective School, and the reasons for that are quite legitimate, starforce turning out to be shady at best, sometimes causing damage to the cd rom drivers. But I've never, ever felt that the drm of a game was too intrusive as to strip the drm. Perhaps for vip-games-zone maybe, although I did try to buy one or two and if it wasn't for both orders failing me with the same damn error message, I'd have copies of the games. But I don't, and now the site's gone, so not sure what's up with that company anyway. But I digress. If you honestly can't afford something, textbook required for class and you can't afford the high price, you've checked everywhere on rfb and d and you can't find it, then maybe pirating is your only way out. In that case, I personally believe it's all about intent/motives. Sean made some good points about pirating in a do or die situation as it were, i.e there's software that's a must for you and your business, so you're forced, indirectly, into pirating due to financial barriers. Fine. You're right on the edge of that moral grayarea. You start passing it around to anyone and everyone and you've just crossed that line. No, I'll go a step further and say that is completely shitting all over the line. Lol. But in all seriousness, all that can hold true for stuff you need. Audiogames are, as Jayde rightfully pointed out, are anything but necessities. Good to have? Yes, absolutely. Necessities? Nope. So if you can't buy them, you either can't ask someone or you've just gotten stomped on for doing so *although really that shouldn't happen* then you just have to come to terms with the disappointment and maybe the realization that it can wait and you don't *need* it. Can that be hard to realize as a kid? Yeah, sure. We all know I was of that type years ago. I always saw to it that I could get my stuff bought, though, because I could still obviously appreciate what went into game development. Once you get older and realize the value of a dollar, you begin to appreciate it more. As for Jayde's comment about three basic survival needs, as much as I'd like to agree on that one I really can't. In the US at least, we surround ourselves with, live, and breathe information. It is hardly an option to be as primitive as we once were. Lol.

My post is going to go pretty off-topic, but this topic has done that already so why not.
I'm not a fan of absolutes; very few things are really absolutely wrong under any circumstances no matter what. In the case of stealing, let's say someone has a family to support, and they do not have the means or opportunity to do so. If this person sneaks into a shop, and takes a few items of food, would this really be so wrong in moral terms? If you think about it, those items bring great value to the individual and their family, and could be the difference between life and death, whereas for the shop owner it's a little less prophet, but not anything too major. Yes it's still illegal, but being legal and being moral are two very different things. In the case of murder, I think it was Nocturnus who said something about not justifying murder no matter how much you hate a serial killer, but if murdering the serial killer saves several innocent lives of people who would have been victims if he had been allowed to continue, would it not be the moral thing to do?
One other thing I really need to address,
@Enes, I really feel like you're seriously exaggerating what the americans have done. Yes, they have definitely messed up quite a few countries, but saying they're meddling in the affairs of almost every country on earth doesn't seem very plausible; I doubt they could do that even if they wanted to. Also, most often they're not acting alone, they work with NATO, which your country is a part of if I'm not mistaken. Libya is a prime example of a country NATO helped to ruin where the americans did not play the leading roll. And do you really think they're responsible for all poverty in the planet? Did they bomb or exploit every poor country on the planet?
Also, your country isn't exactly innocent either. By the "terrorists" the americans are training in Syria, are you referring to the kurds? I'm curious what your opinion is regarding your country's treatment of your kurdish population and the military incursions into northern Syria. Then there was also the controversial invasion of northern Cyprus; that issue still hasn't been entirely resolved. And don't forget the armenian genocide for which your country has never apologised. Not that you're in any way unique in that regard; Germany is still in denial about the genocide in Namibia, for example, but just to point out that your country has done some meddling and committed some atrocities of their own.