I'm on the exact same page as you orko. Everything stated above you I agree with. I use NVDA for rtr and google chrome to access this forum, and have only ever incountered crash strings on games like dmnb or swamp with online play. Also for any who want a computer with accessibility right out of the box, just get a mac. I use both, and honestly the only thing preventing me from switching entirely to mac is games but also there's no good word processer that will save in doc format, as I use windows at school and would need to be able to do homework on the mac.
@post17, I didn't know about the inability of users to change the JAWS Eloquence inflection. I just tried inserting Inflection=100 into C:\Users\[UserName]\AppData\Roaming\Freedom Scientific\JAWS\[JAWSVersion]\Settings\VoiceProfiles\Eloquence.VPF, and it didn't work.
@post24, NVDA does have excellent training guides available--they are called the Basic Training for NVDA. I agree that they are perhaps not as comprehensive as those for JAWS, but they definitely do exist.
@Post23 If you're a jaws user switching to NVDA, training is mostly unneeded because NVDA works pretty much the exact way as Jaws. I had to read the manual to find out some things, but not very many things because I went to NVDA with a vast knowledge of how to use Jaws.
#29 (edited by flackers 2017-09-05 00:55:54)
I too say that orko has already said pretty much everything I'd say myself, and not for the first time. NVDA is a noble cause and even though I use jaws 99% of the time, I regularly donate to NVDA because It's great that there's a properly usable screen reader that's free for all. It can handle a few things jaws can't but over all, I think jaws just works smoother in a more intuitive way. And let's face it, people aren't idiots, they wouldn't pay all that money for jaws year on year and put up with the restrictive activation system if NVDA were a much better screen reader. And as for eloquence, it never ceases to amaze me that it still is the only synth I ever use and it hasn't been developed in decades. I read novels using a screen reader, and eloquence is the only one that's consistent enough in its pronunciation and fluency to make reading that amount of text a tolerable experience.
I forgot to mention also that jaws has a tandom mode that is both more sicure but also works much quicker, i've noticed quite a bit of lag when working with NVDA remote, and strange things have happened to me and others when using it. With jaws i've never had a problem, and the actually connection is much faster I think, the lag may have been my internet though.
I did a quick switch to NVDA to check out this inflection feature you keep going on about and tinkered with it for a while. I thought it was cute, but not a show stopping feature if it's not there.
And, come to think of it, even if it was there, I'd more than likely not mess with it. Where Freedom Scientific sets it suits me just fine, I see no reason to change it.
JAWS isn't the only version of Eloquence missing the inflection feature, Code Factory's version for SAPI doesn't have it either.
Actually, OpenBook was produced by Freedom Scientific, but they included the Inflection feature for some reason. So it's not an NVDA thing.
I never said it was, it just that NVDA allows you to set the inflection level and JAWS does not.
Since much of JAWS is written in their scripting language, it wouldn't surprise me to find the inflection setting in one of the scripts that deal with the TTS voice.
Freedom Scientific must have done something to remove the inflection changes because you also cannot alter it in JAWS with backquotes. However, you can alter other things such as the speed and pitch with them.
Petition to remove Video intercept? No thanks, please!
Because of that driver JAWS is able to surpass NVDA on speed in Microsoft Word or web, cause if Video intercept, or Video accessibility driver did not exist, JAWS would be slow as hell.
#36 (edited by Green Gables Fan 2017-09-05 09:35:14)
Then how is it that NVDA can perform well on web pages and Microsoft word documents? If anything, they should use what NVDA's using on JAWS because it's the video intercept drivers that are taking up space. Besides, NVDA doesn't take up much space, whereas JAWS takes up a lot of space. And as for the political and economic reasons, I will never, never, never pay for a screen reader. Period. End of story.
I am not sure if on this nowadays' technology where computers come packed with 1-2 TB harddrive storage, the argument of JAWS filling much space should be brought up. That's ridiculous!
Well, think about it. JAWS is a commercial screen reader. That's why it takes up more room. But screen readers like Voiceover already come built into the operating system. And yes, Narrator will eventually take over, but right now this ever-ending battle or debate between JAWS and NVDA will continue. But in my opinion,I can't wait until the day comes that JAWS will no longer exist because Narrator would be fully usable right out of the box, exactly like how you'd use your Mac, iOS or Android device.
I'm eagerly looking forward to that day, but it seems, far, far away.
Need to answer to an argument brought up on here: Jaws is faster than NVDA cause of video intercept? Don't know which version of Windows you are using, but if anything above 7 video intercept basically doesn't work in your jaws. It will probably go away as soon as support for 7 ends. Don't agree with petitioning either, for some reason people started thinking that they can change the whole world with petitioning each and every dev about every small thing.
Not if we decide to take action, rather than just sit here and complain. The time for talking is over.
I imagine freedom scientific would update all that as windows improved, wouldn't they? Honestly i'm still using jaws 12 at home so wouldn't really know heh
JAWS go away? That will never happen. Unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn't mind if third parties compete with them. Ever wonder why there aren't any screen readers for the Mac or iOS besides Voice Over? It's not because everybody thinks Voice Over is great, No it's because Apple won't allow it. Ever notice that the only Voice Over voices available for iOS are from Apple even though there are quite a few other voices that you could choose from? Because Apple won't allow them and they accomplish this by refusing to list them in the app store.
As is probably true of most synthesisers, many of Eloquence's voice characteristics can either be synthesizer controlled to a preset level or can be controlled by the application.
In JAWS and Code Factory's Eloquence for Windows, Inflection is more than likely force set or configured to be controlled by the synthesizer, while in NVDA the user can control it themselves.
If NVDA is so great, why are there so many add ons? I'll tell you, it's because NVDA lacks most of the features that come built in to JAWS so some third party has to sit down and create those add ons just to bring NVDA up to the same feature set JAWS has out of the box.
Unless you installed an add on or bought an OCR program, until Microsoft added OCR to Windows 10, NVDA didn't have it built in, and still doesn't have it unless you are running the latest Windows. Meanwhile JAWS has had built in OCR for at least 4 years already, and the new version coming out this fall will be expanding the built in OCR's capabilities.
NVDA can be used perfectly fine without any addon for any average user. Give an example and i'll tell you. As you said, OCR only on Windows 10 but it's easy for freedom scientific to just buy a licence to use nuance's engine when they have so much money. Other than OCR, i can't see why do you need a lot of addons. Just don't tell me something like accessing system tray with insert f11? That's just your choice not to use standard windows functionality and press windows b. When one day microsoft changes something huge and insert f11 stops working, jaws users will complain how windows is not accessible. I can't see why FS couldn't just allow people to use standard interfaces rather than inventing them.
#45 (edited by Orko 2017-09-05 19:03:09)
Removed because my information was wrong, see nidza07's and my messages below.
@Orko, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that OCr on JAWS could be used to scan images and PDF files containing text. This will come on the next version that might be released around November.
Ok, let's try again: Go to your desktop or to any other app, and then press windows+b. Go through the list with up and down arrows, and remember what you find. Now, press windows+t. You might notice jaws says, task bar. Windows+t takes you to the taskbar, not B. Now, press insert f11, and if the list is not the same as Windows+b one, then I don't know what did you do to your Windows. Plus, this wasn't an example on how NVDA is better than jaws , just that insert+f11 is not needed.
#48 (edited by Orko 2017-09-05 19:00:30)
You can OCR a PDF made of scanned images of text now, you don't have to wait for version 2018. Just load the PDF into Adobe Reader, then press Inser + Space to get into layered mode, then press O to go into the OCR layer, then press D for document, the resulting text will be placed in the virtual viewer where you can copy and paste it into something else, such as Notepad or Word for editing and or saving.
What is coming in November is the ability to run the OCR on an image file. While in Windows Explorer, highlight the file you want to OCR, then you can use one of two methods to do the OCR on the file. The first is to use layered mode, press Insert + space, then press O, and finally press F for file. The other way is to either right click or press the application key, or press shift + F10 to bring up the context menu, there will be an OCR with JAWS option. Again the resulting text will be placed in the virtual viewer.
You are right, and that's interesting. I knew about Windows + B but could have sworn that it took you to the task bar as in B for bar.
That being the case I have no idea why Freedom Scientific would have spent the time and resources to create the Insert + F11 method of getting to the system tray, unless the Windows + B method wasn't available in earlier versions of Windows.
#49 (edited by nidza07 2017-09-05 18:55:42)
Just to balance it a bit, i'm not an NVDA fan boy or anything. There are certain features in jaws that are good, for example web browsing even on weak configuration is super fast and doesn't make focus jump all the time like NVDA. However, it's a misconception that you need addons, or that insert f11 is useful and needed. About new beta, nothing interesting for me except the OCR thing. Edge support is way behind NVDA in terms of performance, and even the OCR thing will become irrelevant once narrator gets image descriptions in the next windows 10 update, together with NVDA which is working on it. You could of course say not everybody uses windows 10, but sooner or later everyone will, at least all time windows users.
Sure, I use it with no add ons, but for me it is only a secondary screen reader for when using JAWS is a problem, which is generally only when running games written in BGT. JAWS is my primary day to day general use screen reader.
So I guess the real point I should make is, how many full time NVDA users are running it without any add ons at all? I would guess not very many. Not that there is anything wrong with add ons, it just another step you have to go through to get all the features you want.
On the flip side, with add ons you get only those features you want and nothing more. There are lots of features in JAWS that I have no use for and would be just as happy if they weren't there.