2021-04-20 01:38:25

Hello...
As people may know, I'm going to University of Nebraska Lincoln in a couple years to study a few languages and get certifications or even degrees so that I can prove my legitimacy when going for a job. I'm also going for programming and sound/music design, but that's out of the scope of this topic. smile
That's gonna be a couple years from now though. I need to get into early college so I can gain experience and that sort of thing. Until then, I want to start doing things to help with my language learning venture.
The languages I'm gonna take on are Japanese, Spanish, and Chinese. I can only learn one of those at a time unless I want to burn myself out spectacularly, and go figure, I choose both the easiest and hardest language I could have chosen for a first. My first choice is Japanese.
So, here's what I'm doing right now. I'm exercising more than I used to because I have heard that working out improves your memory, and that's definitely something I need to work on because my memory is garbage. I am also taking capsules to help with my memory. I'm not sure what they're called, but if anyone wants to know I can try to find out. As for direct language learning stuff, all I'm doing right now is using Duolingo again. I am also subscribed to the Japanese with Yuta email list, but I haven't been sticking to that as much as I know I should be.
Here's some things I heard would help me. I have heard from several people that learning the languages from native speakers who don't speak your language at all is amazing, because then it's a mutually beneficial effort. A lot of people have sworn by this learning method, and it's something I'd be willing to try. Is there a name for this type of learning so I can Google it and learn more about it? Do you guys like that method? Are there perhaps any Discord servers designed for this purpose that I can go to and interact with people trying to do the same thing?
I have also been told by a friend that I should get a work visa to go to one of these countries. He says it's a good thing because it pretty much forces you to learn the language and you can study it better. I heard you can also get an interpreter to follow you around and teach you things whilst filling out the gaps in conversation where needed. Does anyone here have experience with that?
I guess my final question is, do yawl have any other tips that could help me out. I try to use podcasts and stuff to help me out, but I have a hard time learning things typically unless I'm learning hands on. If anyone knows the best way to find this information, I'll be a happy camper. big_smile
Take care...

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2021-04-20 02:17:19

I swear by the immersion approach. I'm sure there are more than a few discord servers for language learning, and you'll get to meet native speakers who both want to learn English or just want to talk to people without studying, or anything in between. I became fluent with Japanese only because I spent 3-5 hours about 3 times a week hanging out with 9 or 10 Japanese students nad having to keep up with conversation. That kind of learning is called language exchange. Work visas are also a good idea, post-pandemic, obviously... and I have never heard of someone getting a work visa and having an interpreter to follow them around, and I've worked with international students for almost ten years. Podcasts are great, and along with duolingo I'd recommend looking into more dedicated websites like japanesepod101.com, which was the one I used an age and a half ago. The only thing that's easy about Japanese is pronunciation. Grammar, though it's consistent, can be a little tricky to wrap your head around especially if coming from a western background. But it's a great language to learn, and a beautiful one once you get into it. Good luck! I can empathize as someone who also does much better learning hands on than through studying.

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2021-04-20 03:26:38

Thanks assault_freak. smile I've gotta say, this is a hard road to follow. I have lamented to my family and friends that I have an interest in learning Japanese, and I've gotten mixed responses. The response that's most common for me is, "Uh, I don't think you should learn that. There's hardly any Japanese speakers in the US so you're not going to find very many resources. Why not stick to Spanish instead, son?" My Dad also teaches me Spanish on every meeting we've had for the last few weeks every time I talk about learning Japanese, which I believe is a sneaky way to get me to drop the language I'm trying to learn and focus entirely on Spanish instead. Don't get me wrong, I like Spanish. In fact, it's the next language I plan on learning after Japanese. The thing is, I've already started learning Japanese, and it would be very counter-productive to drop what I'm already trying to learn and have invested interest in for something else when I could just learn it when I'm finished with this. I confess, it's really hard to do what I'm interested in doing when so many people are telling me they would rather I not do it. I try though. smile

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2021-04-20 03:42:55

Yeah it's gotta be something that strikes your fancy, or you won't be motivated to do it. I want to learn Japanese, but I don't know how to go about it, I don't really have the money to spend on courses.

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2021-04-20 03:56:23

@GCW
There are a lot of free language learning resources out there. r/languagelearning has a big list of them

2021-04-20 04:31:58

There are definitely free resources. If nothing else, again, hop on a Japanese learning discord somewhere. I guarantee you you wil find something and while you may not learn the language inside and out, you'll learn enough to get by, which is a fantastic starting point.

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2021-04-20 05:31:28

From my own experience, if you want to learn the language professionaly, if you want to learn the ins and outs, the small quirks and exceptions you really need a teacher. Even two hours a week with a teacher will help you a lot because the teacher should know how to structure your lessons in such a way that you learn progressively and build a solid base. After you know the basic rules of the language it's easy enough to build some vocabulary from external ressources but while you have no idea how the grammar, spelling and pronunciation work you aren't going to get too far. The ressources mentioned above are pretty good indeed, but they should be complementary to your sessions with a teacher and not the main way of learning a language IMO.

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2021-04-20 09:25:35

Well, is there any reason that you're learning these two languages specifically? Learning a language with a purpose, and often being fond of the culture that speaks the language can be an internal drive to study it better. That was my case with English. What's the benefit in this case of learning Japonese and Chinese? Do you think they are going to be valuable in your future career?
I would not personally recommend you take any capsules to improve your memory; that's definitely not a good idea. Food that helps the memory and intelligence can be taken, and I would need to research what foods help in this regard, but on no account capsules.
There are many oppportunities to learn a language, and that of course depends on the setting that you're learning it. I'm sure there will be opportunities for you when you're at university to complete an exchange semester in Japan or China. There is also the opportunity to cooperate with a foreign student, Japonese or Chinese in this case, in the course of your studies, in different courses. The cooperation can be organised in different activities; for instance, discussing about a phenomenon that has to do with a social problem. In addition, you might have the chance to communicate with them through e-mail. A good point to be mentioned is the benefit you can gain from international professors that give lectures at your university if the case so is. At big universities there are many international lecturers. Even if you don't like the class, you can enjoy the language lesson. Your listening capabilities in the respective language will be highly improved.
A good point not to be forgotten is the communication with native speakers or people that speak the language you want to learn. This is chritically important as sometimes it'll help more than what you'll learn at university. It is really helpful to practice the language both in writing and speach. Actually that's how I am improving my German. 3 4 months ago it was quite challenging for me to even write an e-mail in German, but now it feels quite easy. I am taking a course to improve my German, but nothing could help me as much as the communication in writing and speaking. It drastically improved my competence in German.
The last point I can now think of, try to find videos or recordings, podcasts or broadcasts that talk about different issues and where people's opinions are taken. This will be absolutely a life-changer for your language as you'll hear normal people in their daily life talking. They come from different walks of life and they're spontaneously interviewed on different matters. For example, for German, French and Italian, I've seen a series of interviews called Easy German or Easy French, and they're quite interesting to watch.

2021-04-20 12:13:12

I've heard that listening to a radio station in your chosen language is useful. Radio stations have things like travel updates and hourly news bulletins, and they also introduce songs before and/or after them. This structure means that you might have a vague guide to what you might expect to hear. Similarly, watch a movie that you know well with the soundtrack set to the language you're learning. If you're familiar enough with it, you may be able to pick out words because you'll have an idea of what you're expecting to hear. This actually works particularly well with children's films (Disney in French or Spanish is a favourite of mine), because the language is deliberately set more simply for children to understand it. That makes it easier when you're trying to learn.

I find Duolingo to be excellent, not least because it's free. It does work best if you have other interactions in the language though, so that you can reinforce your lessons.

2021-04-20 17:41:18

So learning Japanese is purely out of interest for me, but the reason I wanted to learn Spanish and Chinese is mainly because of the large market behind it. Remember, I’m getting this translation job partially so that I can earn enough money to keep me financially stable, so I’ve got to earn money somehow. As for the capsule thing, that’s not exactly what I meant. It’s like herbs or something. Either way, it’s legit, or else it probably wouldn’t be on the shelves. I do eat decently I think, but I still have a terrible memory, which is why I need supplements to help. Part of the issue might be that I can’t eat as much because I think I get full really quickly. I also really like the podcast and radio broadcast idea, but I’d have to really try and hunt down those resources and I do have trouble learning from stuff like that unless it’s hands-on. Great ideas so far though, I really appreciate the help.

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2021-04-20 17:58:54

Oh also in regards to my Dad, I found out he's been teaching me Spanish because he's moving to a place where he'll have to learn it for his job, so he's trying to practice. I want him to succeed, so while I don't know very much Spanish I think I'll humor him as best I can. My primary focus right now though is Japanese, so I'll try out the resources you all have suggested. Thank you so much again for the help. Also GCW, I hope you find a good place to learn the language too.

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2021-05-17 00:44:45 (edited by Dan Gero 2021-05-17 00:47:26)

OK, update. I've been studying as best I can, but progress is slow and I'm having a lot of trouble.
For starters, I joined a language exchange Discord server with a lot of friendly people, so that's good. I'm also using Anki Flashcards and recorded the terms/definitions on my computer so I could loop them in the background, because I heard it's good to study like that because you can eventually learn the words subconciously. I'm also using japanesepod101.com to study, but this is where I'm having  trouble.
My first priority is to learn how to converse with people. JP101 teaches this at first, but then it goes into how to order at a restaurant, talk to someone you haven't seen in a while, and serve them at the dinner table. These things are definitely important, but realistically I won't have any situations where I can practice those words/frazes for quite a while. Because I'm not in any situations where I can practice these things, I can't get them to stick in my head as well. Some use saying long time no see when I can't have a conversation long enough for someone to remember me or Vice versa.
Right now, I want to focus on learning very basic words and sentences. I'm still not entirely sure how to say but, in, and, the, to, too, and other small things like that. I want to find something that will teach me the small things first before throwing me into situations where I won't be able to practice.
One thing I also really need to learn is how to use my phone/computer. I often find myself getting lost in the various settings and stuff like that. I'm also not exactly certain how to talk to Siri either. I've learned a few of the most essential frazes, but I still have some trouble. For example, I found out that I can say

ディスコード開いています

to open Discord, but it doesn't always work. Plus, Siri seems to get confused with the apps that don't have Japanese names, and when I tell it to open the messages app it thinks I'm trying to send a message directly with Siri. Of course, Japanese Siri doesn't understand English, and most if not all of my contacts don't speak Japanese. If I try to dictate an English message with Japanese Siri, something tells me it wouldn't turn out too well. smile
That's pretty much it. If yawl have any suggestions for me, I'm always happy to receive them.

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2021-05-17 03:35:42

Sorry to interrupt Dan's question, but I have a question too. Do you guys only learn Japanese by speaking and listening, or do you also learn the symbols like kana and kanji and stuffs? Because, well, I am interested in Japanese too, but I don't know how to read those symbols.

2021-05-17 04:27:43

Yeah I was wondering that too.

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2021-05-17 04:44:04

another question, how do people actually use duolingo?
I mean I tried it a few times but always it expects me to know basic stuff about the language I am trying to learn. I thought it would teach me

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2021-05-17 08:07:58

duolingo is very much a head first approach. You pretty much get thrown into the language, with few typs, and just practice a lot. It is not for everyone.

I am learning Japanese currently, and no, I don't bother with Kkanji currently. Mostly because I don't see myself writing them by hand, (Not enough vision to do that, completely blind here,) so it is mostly reading and listening, and typing.

Honestly, voice commands are iffy in English at the best of days, I can't imagine working with them in Japanese. You must be braver than me, Dan.

2021-05-17 16:54:23 (edited by assault_freak 2021-05-17 16:54:52)

First off, regarding Kanji. Not being able to see doesn't mean you won't be able to learn them, or that they're not necessary. Even when typing, you have to choose the correct kanji to form words, which means you still need to learn the meanings, even if not the shapes. I wouldn't be able to type if I didn't know at least the basics of kanji.

Those scenario-based conversations are not only for vocab. They also help you to understand pronunciation and basic sentence structure. So if your goal is to learn to converse with people, those are small snippet examples of how conversation actually goes in Japanese. If your concern is basic vocab like the ones you described, then you should look at Japanesepod's basic boot camp or other series, or survival phrases. Been a long time since I used innovative for anything, but I remember just starting with their beginner series.

Lastly, phone and computer. My advice? Don't bother with that until your skills are a bit more advanced... trying to use your phone when you don't know how the language works in order to execute the right commands or use the right technical word for things is putting yourself at a complete disadvantage. Voice commands and dictation also require very precise pronunciation. Just some thingsto bare in mind. I can't speak for other languages, but I think I may have some insights about Japanese at least, seeing as I've spent the better part of the last seven years in mostly Japanese environments of people where the language is being used every day. smile And I'll try and help wherever I can.

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2021-05-17 22:55:43

Hey Assault,

Given you work with Japanese a lot, can you tell me a bit about what tooling you use?
As in ...do you use the Japanese NVDA? I've found the English one has quite a bit of trouble describing kanji to me which makes it almost impossible to distinguish between them when candidates come up. I had some odd issues with the Japanese version though, most notably that with some voices, chiefly Eloquence, latin characters would always be echoed phonetically which is actually quite annoying.
SO yeah ...mostly curious what screenreader, TTS and IME you use for working with Japanese smile
I find jTalk rather annoying to listen to for longer amounts of time and unfortunately I haven't been able to find ProTalker for nvda 2019.3+ so it feels like I am doomed to use either Japanese Eloquence, which I have working but isn't ideal in some respects, or one of the nuance voices smile Curious how you solved this one smile

2021-05-18 04:34:21

What trouble does the regular english nvda have describing kanji? I haven't used it, so can't compare. I use the Japanese NVDA with Eloquence for English, and the 1 core voices for other languages. You can turn off the character description mode with numpad 2 four times, that way the character will only be described when you use numpad 2 twice on the character that has focus. For ime, I don't know how any other ones work, so I use the default one from microsoft.

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2021-05-18 20:02:21

I am pretty sure English NVDA just doesn't describe characters as you type, as in ...it'll pronounce them, but not distinguish between them. So it's hard, if not impossible, to know if you're looking at a kanji, it's kana representation or a completely different kanji that just happens to be pronounced the same way.
As for Japanese NVDA, I thought Character Description Mode would only act on kana and kanji if it were on, but now I think about it more it makes sense that it would also do it for Latin characters, that might be what's happening. I'll give that a try, thanks for the thought smile
As for using Eloquence and OneCore in tandem, do you just switch between them if you are primarily going to be using the one over the other or do you use DualVoice etc. to have it read Mandarin/Japanese even if the language tags aren't there?

2021-05-18 22:47:21

I use synthswitch to switch between them when I need. And if I can find a way, I might try English NVDA to see what results are when you type, but I'm pretty sure that it should still describe characters in the candidate list. And it's easy to tell whether the character you're highlighting is kana or kanji, that's precisely why it's important. Some Kanji when read with their native Japanese pronounciation have two syllables instead of one.

I'll experiment on this and report back... just need a way to install the english version of NVDA without breaking my current copy. lol

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2021-09-29 00:30:28

Alright, question time! smile
So, I am no longer an absolute beginner. I have almost finished level one of 5 on Pod101, which makes me really happy.
I'm facing an issue though. I can't seem to focus anymore. Now that I'm at the end of these first sets of lessons, I'm beginning to think of how much longer I have to go and what comes next, as well as how well I've done with the past lessons. Essentially, I have one foot in the future and one foot in the past.
I know all too well that I can't rush this, and that when it comes to studying, I have to focus on the here and now. I'm trying as hard as I can to focus, but these thoughts of just rushing ahead full speed are distracting me. I have tried every mental game I can to force these thoughts away and help myself to stay on task, but nothing is working. In fact, by trying to play mental games to stay on task, I'm making the problem worse, because now I'm focused on the mental games I'm playing and can't stay on task. Talk about irony, am I right?
It doesn't help that I have ADHD either. I'm seeing therapists for that now to see if I have to go on meds to null the symptoms and stay focused. Until then, does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to make focusing on my current task easier? I feel like I've got a heavy weight constantly resting on my head, and it would really help if I could find a way to lift that weight.

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