2021-04-18 10:33:29

camlorn wrote:

@33
I'm saying that vc is a reason to avoid moo, not that it could be implemented.  That said the lpc-stuyle live development process could probably play nice with git if I felt masochistic enough to try to use lpc for something.

I think you're misunderstanding the fundamental problem with moo.  The fundamental problem with moo is that you can't patch the game by having a dev port and a prod port and merging your changes across.  Moo just fundamentally doesn't support that sort of operation since there's no distinction between code and game data.  I'm sure you can homegrow something for it but anything off the shelf/reasonable/whatever isn't going to help you.  If moo did have a distinction between code and game data VC wouldn't be a problem because you'd only version control the code parts.  You could also write e.g. a migrations framework.  I'm sure you can write a migrations framework against moo now, but it's low value without dev ports etc.

In an environment where rolling back changes is basically impossible, comparing changes between two things is basically impossible, etc. whatever bad decisions are made are decisions you're stuck with.  Moo wasn't intended for big rpg-style games.  It was intended to be a chatroom/collaborative small-scale building platform.  Hundreds of thousands of lines of code live-edited into place with no rollback and no tooling is not what you want to be doing.

In standard developer land, refactors to get rid of tech debt have zero risk.  In moo land, refactors to get rid of tech debt have tons of risk.  It is probably the case that Hellcore has too much going on to refactor the things you're mentioning, but a lot of small "we could refactor this but it will take 5x longer than it should because moo and what if we destroy data" concerns adding up over a long time does not end well. 

I'm surprised that you can defend moo but hate JavaScript/Node at the same time.  Moo has most of the disadvantages of Node, plus also you can't do any standard development practices on it.  Absolutely nothing moo-related is conducive to producing good code for large projects.  That doesn't mean that good code wasn't produced with it--good code has been produced with assembly.  But it's not going to help you at all.

Moo only looks good because the alternative is C.  If muds weren't dead we'd probably have good modern codebases with most of the advantages and none of the disadvantages, but the only thing I can think of with any maturity that's not in C is Evennia and Evennia is kind of an odd snowflake last I looked at it.  I suppose there's Coffeemud but last I checked Coffeemud was both terrible code and horrifyingly slow and memory hungry.  I get why people use moo, in other words.  But then everyone turns around and is like "X in Moo is bad code", then the devs get blamed for the bad code, and no one steps back and says "you know, maybe it's moo making everything harder all the time".

Moo has its place.  It's cool if you want some sort of collaborative building thing where you and all your friends hop on and build a text adventure.  But trying to make some big cohesive RPG experience out of it is borderline misuse, kind of.  I'm sure that back when it first came out it was more reasonable, but the rest of the world has moved on by a lot in every dimension.  If Moo were so great for that then there would be a lot more big cohesive RPG experiences.  Instead I think we have only ever had like 10 total.  I don't mean RPI, I mean things like Alter Aeon.

But anyway I doubt I'm going to convince anyone of anything so whatever.  Most of this is the kind of argument where the argument itself sounds like the things being said don't matter until you've actually had them matter in real life.  I can say that if I cared to write a mud then writing the equivalent of what Moo offers without a core would be like a weekend (moo without a core is barely more than a glorified telnet server).  After that, any time lost at the beginning writing the basic abstractions like rooms would be saved so many times over by not being terrified to touch things after they'd been exposed to players, having isolated dev environments, and so on and so on etc.

You are an idiot.  I'd like it very much if I never heard of "camlorn" commenting on MUD, MOO, or software in general.  As far as I know, you have never produced anything that anybody wanted to download.  I've actually seen your posts on some abandoned mailing list, claiming that Wayfar was using O^2 searches for everything - code that you have never had access to, and that you never will have access to.  From now on, I expect you to link your github, or shut the fuck up.

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2021-04-18 16:37:28

Oh boy, something about that post hit close to home I think. You highlighted the entire thing by quoting it, and then didn't actually respond to any of it.

Sincerely,
Lucas.

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2021-04-18 17:17:47

@51
Literally everyone doing Rust uses this project I did with Mozilla and a number of things that my work opened the door for.  I have code in prod at Cloudflare, Dropbox, and Google because of this project.  My current project is this audio synthesis library, which does have a number of users without me even bothering to promote it anywhere but here.  here's my resume, which is a bit out of date since I only update it between jobs; unfortunately, by the nature of it being jobs I can't link stuff because it's proprietary, but that's normal enough.  There's also unspoken which I still get requests to maintain.  If your benchmark is that qualified programmer = produces value, I have produced lots of value.  If your benchmark is that qualified programmer = able to link open source stuff I just did, and right back at you.

If your get command wasn't O(N^2) it did nonetheless lag for like a whole second which is terrible, and when I played it was pretty clearly based on how much stuff was in the room, so I'm not sure what the point of quibbling over whether I got the algorithmic complexity right is.  Whether it's O(N^2) it's something that needed to be fixed.  Maybe you did.  If so, good for you.  But instead of calling me out, maybe explain why it lagged and why you couldn't use a more advanced data structure or something?

I'm not sure what the point of holding a grudge for that long or trying to dig up old posts of mine is, nor the point of coming back to this thread after a month to specifically call me out is either.  Thing is, I've also said that Wayfar was a unique game and that it was a shame that it got shut down, so cherry-picking this is kind of silly.  When people complained about your admin practices in general game discussion I kind of laughed it off because it's audiogames.net, but at this point I'm glad I didn't decide to play again.  This is very close to the most unprofessional thing I've seen here and you're not even an unrsocialized blind teenager.  You could have just walked away and let the thread stay dead.  Why didn't you?

My Blog
Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2021-04-18 18:23:31

@51
no one’s gonna play your game if you have an attitude like that. At least I wouldn’t

aliquando solem e caelo capiam, et libere volabit anima mea

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2021-04-18 18:46:24 (edited by GrannyCheeseWheel 2021-04-18 18:56:53)

WTF lol.

Also I wonder if this guy has a drug/alcohol problem because of this shit. And no wonder you got banned from the r/MUD discord.

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2021-04-18 23:43:52

Wow.
Whatever happened to the thumbs down option?

I'm probably gonna get banned for this, but...

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2021-04-18 23:57:50 (edited by Ethin 2021-04-18 23:59:24)

@51, that's hilarious. Just hilarious, man. I guarantee that he knows what he's talking about, because he and I have had some very in-depth discussions on things like this in the past (not to mention he's posted a ton of stuff on here about all sorts of things that proves that he knows CS subjects extremely well). You don't need access to code to know that an algorithm is slow. You also don't need access to code to estimate its algorithmic complexity.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

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2021-04-19 00:31:37

camlorn wrote:

@51
Literally everyone doing Rust uses this project I did with Mozilla and a number of things that my work opened the door for.  I have code in prod at Cloudflare, Dropbox, and Google because of this project.  My current project is this audio synthesis library, which does have a number of users without me even bothering to promote it anywhere but here.  here's my resume, which is a bit out of date since I only update it between jobs; unfortunately, by the nature of it being jobs I can't link stuff because it's proprietary, but that's normal enough.  There's also unspoken which I still get requests to maintain.  If your benchmark is that qualified programmer = produces value, I have produced lots of value.  If your benchmark is that qualified programmer = able to link open source stuff I just did, and right back at you.

If your get command wasn't O(N^2) it did nonetheless lag for like a whole second which is terrible, and when I played it was pretty clearly based on how much stuff was in the room, so I'm not sure what the point of quibbling over whether I got the algorithmic complexity right is.  Whether it's O(N^2) it's something that needed to be fixed.  Maybe you did.  If so, good for you.  But instead of calling me out, maybe explain why it lagged and why you couldn't use a more advanced data structure or something?

I'm not sure what the point of holding a grudge for that long or trying to dig up old posts of mine is, nor the point of coming back to this thread after a month to specifically call me out is either.  Thing is, I've also said that Wayfar was a unique game and that it was a shame that it got shut down, so cherry-picking this is kind of silly.  When people complained about your admin practices in general game discussion I kind of laughed it off because it's audiogames.net, but at this point I'm glad I didn't decide to play again.  This is very close to the most unprofessional thing I've seen here and you're not even an unrsocialized blind teenager.  You could have just walked away and let the thread stay dead.  Why didn't you?

Actually, being active on mud forums for like two decades now, I've consistently seen your toxic attitude on those forums and was just tired of it.  Your old post about O(N^2) was just a great example of this.  In addition you had a lot of recent posts that were equally uninformed, and negative.  I'm not even sure what the point of your posts on various muds are, aside from bitching and complaining.  And to what end?

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2021-04-19 00:35:49

@58, toxic attitude? Really? I'd like proof of that. Lots of it. Camlorn has written scathing posts before, but I've never seen him write a post that I'd classify as toxic. And definitely nothing close to the toxicity that your posts contain either. Your throwing stones just because at this point.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

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2021-04-19 00:39:41 (edited by JayJay 2021-04-19 00:40:29)

@51 are you serious? Did you seriously bring back a topic to cuss out someone for no reason after completely dodging their questions? Did you claim that the guy isn't experienced when he made something like 3 popular opensourced engines  as well as several other things that I don't know of? And, as the manager as a multipleyer game that kind of attitude is professional/inviting people to play your games? Well guess what, its not. Go learn some social skills and professional conduct instead of carrying on like a child who been told not to climb on the wardrobe. You're a grown dude, that's not how one should carry about themselves, especially someone who is managing a business.

Bondye envante lagè yo anseye Ameriken jewografi

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2021-04-19 01:16:52

@58
I haven't posted on mud forums in at least 5 years.  I think closer to 10.  The last time I was involved in anything mud dev was somewhere near the end of college, which was like 2013 or 2015 maybe.  I'm 29.  It's possible that you can find stuff that you don't like there, sure, because being a very young adult is a great way to show maturity, and I certainly cringe at some of my older stuff myself.  I've been on the internet since I was 15 so I'm sure that you can go find something bad, but that's true of literally anyone who's been on the internet since they were 15, and there's a reason we don't go through the other person's internet history to find bad things to throw around years and years after the fact.  Frankly everyone but you has moved on from whatever thing put this chip on your shoulder, unless the chip on your shoulder happened because of this thread.

If I'm misinformed in this thread then tell us how.  I have done moo.  I have done work on godwars.  I've done LPC.  if there's some magic thing that makes moo a great platform, what is it?  If there's some thing that's going to bring back all the sighted people, what is it?  I don't even know why you would even care given that originally you were putting it up while you rewrote the codebase in something else, so I don't even entirely see how we're disagreeing.  My first post in this thread was basically "this is a good game, can you please at least prepare a plan to not let it die if you walk away because that's why I don't want to play it again".  But in any case if what you care about is toxicity reviving a thread that was dead for something like 6 weeks to call me an idiot is kind of the definition of that (also: pessimism != toxicity, anyway, and I'll own up to not being an optimistic person no problem).

I won't bother with the "you're misinformed" bit.  You've already decided that even when provided the evidence you asked for and I don't have anything to prove to you, so feel free to keep raging about my supposed lack of knowledge all you want.

@60
You already know about most of my OSS stuff.  Fact of the matter is that once I got my first job in like 2018 or whenever it was, that all stopped for the most part.  My health is such that I need to retire on the fastest timeline I can manage while maintaining a reasonable quality of life, and OSS work is generally hard to find and underpaid, so which one wins in that equation is pretty easy.  We'd have had Synthizer done 8 months ago if I had more than 4-8 uninterrupted hours a week, but alas for I do not.

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Twitter: @ajhicks1992

2021-04-19 03:19:54

@hawg:  If you can take the time to revive a month old thread by attacking Camlorn, why can't you take the time to express exactly why his points aren't valid?  What makes his posts toxic?  He has a more harsh / abrupt writing style than most, but I wouldn't call it toxic because he is raising points which you are very conveniently ignoring.

I'm probably gonna get banned for this, but...

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2021-04-19 04:05:24

Calling someone an idiot is hardly cussing them out....

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2021-04-19 04:21:53 (edited by defender 2021-04-19 04:25:33)

@hawgpadre
You sound like someone who knows they are wrong and instead of facing it, attacks the person pointing that out.
I don't know what your precise malfunction is Hawgpadre, but I wish you would figure your shit out because you do have cool ideas, but your attitude keeps dragging you down, and the more you deny anything is wrong and try to blame everyone else around you, the more others will draw away.
I wish you would at least be honest about how you really are up front instead of pretending to be a nice, chill guy.  Fitting a square peg into a round hole just doesn't work, and people don't appreciate being jerked around with that image you've constructed for your self, and then getting gaslighted by being told they're the problem when you inevitably pull a 180 and flip your shit.

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2021-04-20 07:35:09

Moderation:

@Hawgpadre, consider this an official warning. Post 51 is the very definition of a personal attack. Feel free to disagree with someone all you like, but resorting to name-calling and mud-slinging is a no go and will not be tolerated here.

It's not about what you know, it's about who you know.

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2021-04-20 16:37:44

I was considering trying this MUD out. I will now no longer do so. What's more, I'm going to gently encourage others to take my example. If you're already enjoying the game, then obviously don't let me stop you, but actions have consequences. Hawgpadre, as far as I'm concerned, you've just destroyed whatever credibility you might once have had. Canlorn is detail-oritned and critical, sure, but negative? Toxic? I...can't think of a single instance where I'd say he's toxic, and if you know me and my reputation at all, you'll also know that I'm not at all shy at using that word where I think it fits. As far as I can see, this is just you getting salty because someone who knows a lot came in and basically punched holes in some of your areas of ignorance. Instead of acknowledging those things, or endeavouring to start a discussion, you just revived the topic to quote Canlorn's posts, failing to respond to them, and calling him an idiot. There is no cause for this, and frankly I don't think anyone should be rewarding you for that sort of behaviour by coming to play your game. If RL consequences are what it takes for you to realize that you've stepped over the line, I say bring 'em on.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2021-04-20 16:54:17

Iron done told y'all but you didn't wanna listen. It always seems to be that way. You guys seem to have to figure things out the hard way.

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2021-04-20 17:39:03 (edited by defender 2021-04-20 17:47:36)

@GrannyCheeseWheel
Yeah but dude, your you.  People aren't going to give what you say allot of credibility by default, at least not people with some life experience.  It's not that you can't make good points, it's just that your attitude makes people think twice about the real reason behind the issue.

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2021-04-20 17:44:59

I mean and also this is audiogames.net where a studio saying that they want to make their game accessible but don't have the money gets a ragefest, so it's not like "this admin is a bad admin" really deserves much weight without further evidence for those of us who weren't there to see it.  Seriously, blind people in general lose their shit because the sun came up. Obviously Hawgpadre just lost any benefit of the doubt I was giving, but I'm not personally quick to buy the latest drama threads around here.

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2021-04-20 18:10:50

To go back to the title of this thread...I do have suggestions...

Which mostly involve the following. From my experience.

Positives:

Lots of stuff to craft
You get to explore stuff
You can fix stuff as you go assuming it's below a certain threshold
Neutrals:
The background system is good on paper but not that well explained
The various modifiers don't really make that much of a difference past a certain point

Negatives:
Past a certain point there's nothing too special to planets. It's biomes, alright, but why should I be afraid of mobs in biomes when I can just make enough ammo to kill everything?
Combat feels bland and uninspiring after a while
The lag. Oh god, the lag
The simple fact that past a certain point you don't need to make more gear, or if you get super lucky with dice rolls/take the right skills you don't really need to worry about dice rolls for things

So what's my solution?

Blow the game up, start from scratch and rewrite it all. Yes. I know. Pipe dream but hear me out...

Changing up crafting won't solve the core problem /I/ have which is...I can sit here and tell you which skills to take for a minmax build. No, before you all say oh it's a balance issue. It's much deeper than balance. It's a fundemental flaw with the game, honestly that I can ride my luck with the rolls, get super lucky and take out what I assume is endgame with the basic gear, then die because I get bled out by a starting weapon, despite wearing armor that's supposed to in some percentage, mitigate that.

My next issue is the planets, while nice, are...samey. In that aside from buildings, that players build or droid factories, there's not much to them really.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2021-04-20 18:15:10

I dont' start smear campaigns against people for no reason though. I dont' take the first litttle thing that goes wrong and turn it into a thing that says noone should go here. That's extremely damaging.

Also, I would have loved for you to meet my grandpa. If you think I'm gad, you should ahve seen him in some of his moments. He wrecked the living room one time because he got mad at my grandma. He was riding with my mom when someone cut them off and yelled at them through the window, then said she should stop so he could get out and kick their ass. If people don't want to listen to me because I have a short temper sometimes, that's on them, but it's kinda stupid imo.

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2021-04-20 20:31:30

I dunno, bro. This isn't Hawgpadre's first brush with infamy, and this was a pretty ugly one. Honest mistakes, or people just losing their temper a bit...yeah, you call that out, but a dmear campaign is kinda overkill. But the attacks against Canlorn, the wishy-washy gaslight-ish admin crap we saw a little while ago, bespeaks the very toxicity he's shouting about, and I think it's best to head that off at the pass instead of just playing passive with it.

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2021-04-20 21:51:19

Was aiming that at Defender. I agree with you about the way he's acting. If people wanna play there, they get what they get.

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2021-04-21 06:19:15

I do have to apologize here, because camlorn is obviously not an idiot.  You can all see his posts and make your own judgement.  I'm tired of seeing them though, you eventually get tired of someone who is so negative all the time.  He's got posts in this same subforum that you can read, look at them if you want to know what I'm talking about.

GrannyCheeseWheel wrote:

Was aiming that at Defender. I agree with you about the way he's acting. If people wanna play there, they get what they get.

Yep.  If you don't like it, don't play.  As I happen to know, you rage quit because the guy who wanted to say racist slurs also quit...good luck to you

@#70

Good feedback

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2021-04-21 06:35:32 (edited by starlord2017 2021-04-21 06:38:35)

I'm going to put it out here and now. I see a lot of bitching about this or about that. I play Wayfar. I like just sitting there building things and seeing how they can be improved. well if the admin is a total asshat or not, show me  a game where they don't turn into twat monkeys, or dikfaces. there are more muds out there that did a lot worse than what hawg did on this thread, and yet nobody calls those bastards out. just an example, but star conquest hosts mistreat everyone. to those hosts fuck you to. ban all the good players and keep the newbies. anyone finds what I said offensive, consider this for a moment. we don't live in a world where kindness is the norm, and we expect it.

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