2021-04-16 21:32:31

Hi...
There's something I have tried time and time again to understand, but I just can't, and it just keeps coming up. I'm posting here in the hopes that I can try to figure this out.
I suppose I should start by saying that I am a Right to Repair advocate. I won't get into that too much here; I've talked about this before in another topic of mine, but it basically comes down to having the choice to service your own devices without the Manufacturer being able to force you to go to them to do it. This is something that I personally believe to be one of many fundamental human rights that everyone on this planet is entitled to have, no matter what.
I was having this discussion with someone who is very close to me. Their response was that they don't care about these things. Here's where I get confused. This person leans far to the right. They support Donald Trump, they're in favor of guns... You get the picture. They're also in favor of legalizing drug use, because they believe in freedom over safety. Their belief is that if people want to destroy their lives by taking things that will mess them up or kill them, as long as they're not harming others, it should be their choice to do that. If they are harming others, they should pay the consequences to the full extent of the law. Mind you, I'm just pointing out this person's beliefs. I don't feel comfortable going into my beliefs on that subject here because that would take away from the subject I'm trying to discuss.
Here is where their beliefs fall apart. They say they value freedom while also stating that they don't care what happens with Right to Repair, even if it could eventually lead to a society where you own nothing and are under control of the companies who not only own the devices you use, but even more simpler things, or they just own you as a whole. They care an awful lot about how Jo Biden could be running this country into the ground, but they don't care about the much smaller yet prevalent issues which, if not taken care of, could still spell long-term disaster. This person whom I've chosen to leave anonymous is running out of a burning building barefooted, but they're focussing on the collapsing roof that could kill them instantly when they should be focussing on the shattered glass on the floor that could cut them wide open, and if they can escape safely, they're still gonna bleed out and die because of their open wounds.
I can't, for the life of me, understand this mentality of trying to jump to the top of the latter without trying to take baby steps up each individual rung. If you did that with an actual latter you could possibly fall down and hurt yourself, so why do people continuously try it? I actually did this exact same thing in a topic about Among Us, but the difference there is that I had no idea there was a latter to climb at all until someone in that topic pointed it out to me. This person knows there's a latter to climb because I told them as much. They simply don't care, because they'd rather invest what little time and energy they have between going to work and managing the children into fighting higher powers that they have absolutely no control over until 2024. Yell and scream at Trump and/or Biden all day long until your face turns purple, but you're not making any changes that way, or at least not the changes you're probably hoping for. You have to focus on the smaller things before you can tackle the bigger issues.
Notice how I haven't mentioned whether or not I'm on Trump or Biden's side? That's because I don't know anything about them, and that is purely out of choice. People always tell me that I should pick a side in this massive political debate, but I care a lot more about the issues right in front of me that affect me directly than I do about large issues that I ultimately have no control over. Why don't other people see that as well?

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2021-04-16 22:10:32

Because as you say, people don't care. It benefits big corporations immensely to keep this out. And when people don't care, well. You can forget about right to repair ever happening in this country unless a major, major awakening happens.

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2021-04-16 22:11:45

It just comes down to the reality of things right in front of you. Drugs and guns are easy concepts to grasp. Right to repair is kind of out there because, like, if your phone breaks you just get a new phone. Unless you actually know how to repair things, you're more likely to not care about something that's so abstract to your own life.

2021-04-16 22:22:58

Ah, I get it. So it's not so much like a burning building. It's more like this:

Hey bro, this guy's trying to rob you. That's right, hold up the gun and say you're not gonna stand for it. Ha, got you in a choke hold and now I'm about to stab you. Huh? What about the robber? You idiot, there was no robber. It was all a ploy to get you to turn your back on me. Are you ready? Here comes the knife...

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2021-04-16 23:12:32

It is fucked up though. Like Apple making their own screw to prevent others from reparing their products. I do hope right to repare happens.

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2021-04-17 00:53:56

So I’ve actually never come across this concept of ‘Right to repair’ before reading this topic,, due to this maybe I’m missing something about it, but surely technically everyone does have the right to repair anything you buy? nothing stops you opening your device if you want to, sure some require special tools, but often you can pick up these tools to open for example phones(normally dirt cheap too),  through eBay or just a quick google search if you want the tools. sure you’ll void the warranty if you want to open it up and tinker with the inner workings yourself, but that doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, since I guess someone unqualified could do more damage than good, since that side of a product isn’t designed with the customer in mind. To answer your question though, I think a big proportion of people are just not techy or just don’t have the knowledge of fixing electronics or a broken  item, and wouldn’t have the first idea how to fix something if it broke, so if they can't fix it themselves anyway then the concept of right to repair is irrelevant to them, since they are just more than happy sending it back to the company they brought it from an having them repair it. I think many people also live in a very fast paced busy lifestyle, for a lot of these people they’d simply much rather just pay the company they brought it from to fix it, rather than spend their own time fixing it. on a separate angle, looking at it from the corporation standpoint, one of the issues with right to repair would be as mentioned previously people actually doing more damage to the product by being able to open it up themselves. Although I’m sure these companies are happy generating extra revenue streams through having their own repair centres (so I’m sure part of it is about profit), but if you take for example an iPhone, if you make it really simple to get into with conventional screws, suddenly everyone who breaks their phones, even if they have no knowledge of the inner workings of a phone opens it up to take a look and see  if they can fix it themselves, again often if unqualified possibly doing more damage to the device in the process. as another example, with a lot of mobile phones and similar products which are sealed to make them water resistant. , the moment someone opens one of these devices, unless you really know what you’re doing I would imagine when you do it back up it won’t be water tight any longer, therefore creating more risk of customers water damaging their devices and causing a surge of customers  complaining about the water damage to the company who sold  the device. Again, I could be totally wrong on all of this and totally missing the point, but that’s my personal view on why some people just won’t ever care about something like this, as it simply doesn’t affect them if they can’t fix it themselves anyway.

2021-04-17 01:04:34

The Right to Repair movement goes beyond just laymen, but extends to the concept of ownership and planned obsolescence. For those looking for a refresher course, you can read a number of articles about it covering everything from [Cars], [Medical Equipment], [Farming Equipment], and [Phones].

The central problem, and how manufacturer's tend to have a stranglehold on things is that they claim copyright over the firmware of such devices, and circumventing the DRM embedded in them is a crime. So, you can't repair the mechanical components of the car because the software won't work without signed hardware, or because you don't have the equipment to access the software, or because tampering with the software to calibrate it and fix the vehicle is illegal because DRM/copyright. In other words, if you go outside the manufacturer's walled garden, they brick your car/tractor/C-PAP/Phone arbitrarily, and not just you, but the local repair guy. Its one of the reasons you get ridiculous things like printer ink DRM, or single player games that die after a year because they shut down the online authentication servers.

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2021-04-17 06:31:25

@6, sadly, not all devices let you do this. Some devices (like the surface pro if I'm not mistaken) have special hardware fuses for lack of a better term that get tripped when you open the device up to get at the insides. When this fuse is tripped it bricks the device completely.

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2021-04-17 06:51:42

So in the case of say, a device having de?ice fuses? If one where to take said device to a authorized repair store... How would they repair it without triggering the fuses in the first place, when said fuses are triggered by opening the device anyway?

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2021-04-17 07:13:48

@9, I'd guess they'd have special software or hardware they can flash to make it recognise its a legitimate OEM Technician?
Also @6, even if people can't fix it themselves they should be able to drop it at your nearest tech repair shop, and have them fix it no problem. If you're more skilled and you have a knack for tinkering you can go ahead, but if you're busy and whatever you should be able to drop it off at a centre near you.

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2021-04-17 11:20:47

@ Magurp244 and Ethan, ah that makes more sense now, that’ll teach me for commenting on something I’d never heard about before smile although I knew companies often made it harder to get into devices with things like non-conventional screws etc, I never realised that companies had gone as far as bricking devices if opened by someone other than the company who manufactured the item, that does seem somewhat overkill and a harsh practise. I agree that people should have  the right to take their device to a third party company to have their device fixed if they choose, I know I’ve broken  a couple of iPhone’s in the past and opted to have them fixed at a non-Apple repair shop, just to keep the cost down. I think going back to the original post though, Dan’s question was why don’t people care about the issue, I still think that to a lot of people that simply the idea of right to repair would seem irrelevant to them, either they simply have no interest in fixing it themselves, or the more common reason here would probably be that a lot of people (especially when money isn’t a concern) actually prefer to have their devices fixed by the official manufacturer, as they want the device fixed with official parts and by the company directly to ensure the quality of the repair. Again, although I now see the problem more clearly and see why it’s an issue and I do agree that we should have the right to take our devices wherever we want to have them fixed,, but I think to a lot of people they honestly just don’t mind only being able  to have their device fixed by the company who manufactured the product, which is why a lot of people I think don’t really mind either way about Right to repair, and why it probably doesn’t seem an important or big issue to these  people.

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2021-04-17 18:12:47

Yeah. I'm personally split on this particular issue, but at the same time I really, really don't trust most third party repair shops. I've had far too many bad experiences with counter fit parts, ETC.

2021-04-17 18:55:31

Many of the issues with counterfeit parts probably stem from the safe guards companies put in place to prevent people from servicing or wanting to service their devices.

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2021-04-17 20:29:30

I mean, yeah, it really comes down to effects, and how it might effect your life. In the end, we only have so much time and energy to worry about things. Anymore, and we overload. The deal here is we each have to make decisions about what kind of society we want to live in. Contrary to popular belief, there are many valid ways to run a society each with there own strengths and weaknesses, and trying to put the entire world on the same page government wise, is probably not a good idea.  Either way, I digress. some things are just more important  to some people than to others. This isn't necessarily bad.

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2021-04-17 22:31:11

This is exactly why I'm not buying another MacBook Pro, and instead buying a laptop from System76 and switching to Linux. I'll make it work and duel-boot Windows for the occasions when it doesn't.
Yes, you should care about right to repair. It's good for the consumer, it's good for the economy and it's good for the environment.
Apple spends significant engineering man hours on making their products impossible to repair rather than spending them on features that would make their products better buys for the customer, and it's all so they can force you to throw away your $4000 computer when some trivial failure occurs. And when you take your computer to the Apple store and tell them the battery no longer charges, or a key on your keyboard broke, or you just need more storage... they're going to quote you an amount comparable to a new machine, because they've intentionally designed it so they can't even fix it without gutting the machine and replacing the motherboard.
Apple does not need to do this in order to make money. They seem to just enjoy having a cult following who will accept round after round of doctrine and abuse. If you evaluate Apple using the BITE model, they hit all four points perfectly.

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2021-04-18 01:12:19

@15, and that's exactly why I don't go for Apple products anymore. I, too, have a System76 laptop, though its really a Clevo because I got this one before they started making their own hardware. Its got Arch and Windows on it and it runs beautifully. I've only had to replace the keyboard once, and only had to clean it out once too. And the repairs/cleaning in total cost me less than $300.00. I don't quite remember the exact amount anymore -- it was a while ago -- but replacing the keyboard is ridiculously easy. The guys over there are also incredibly helpful as well; I've had a couple of phone conversations with them and its great to go into extensive detail about components and such. I've gotta say that this computer is undoubtedly the best computer I've ever had.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-04-18 01:51:06

Glad to hear you like your laptop. I'm just waiting for my new Lemur Pro to arrive, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

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2021-04-18 02:02:10

Hmm. I doubt they  hit all of the BITE model perfectly... I, for example, have not heard of Apple commanding its consumers on what they must wear. LOL!!! I get the point, though. I will need to check into system 76. I may be in the market for a new laptop and want to branch out to linux machines.

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2021-04-18 02:23:46

@18, a company doesn't have to hit the all of the BITE model's examples for each point; Apple exhibits some of the signs of each point, though

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-04-18 03:13:47

Let's try to give an example for each...
Behaviour control:
I'll cite scare tactics here, specifically the 'unidentified developers' propaganda. If you try to run a Mac app developed by someone who doesn't pay the tithe (have an Apple Developer subscription), your computer will issue alarmist warnings about how the OS can't guarantee that the app is free of malware and make it quite difficult to run the app. Unless Apple's 'app reviewers' are security researchers who disassemble apps and analyze every line of assembly with a fine-tooth comb, they cannot truly guarantee that any 3rd party app is malware free. They just feel it is their right to force devs to pay them for the privilege of developing apps on their platform, apps which Apple themselves had no hand in actually developing. So they make the 'bad behaviour' difficult to commit and rife with scary warnings, in order to convince most users to delete the app until its developers pay the ransom.
Information control:
This one's the easiest. Everything about apple is top secret. No service manuals, no schematics, nothing that would allow individuals or independent repair shops to fix their products.
Thought control:
Louis Rossman on Youtube has a great example of this one. I think it was the iPhone 6 which exhibited reception issues if you held the phone a certain way. Rather than admitting that a design flaw existed and recalling affected units, Apple tried to convince users that they were simply holding the phone wrong. Oh, and don't even get me started on their practice of taking away critical hardware components, forcing people to buy tiny, easily lost adapters and then somehow manipulating people into embracing this rather than seeing it as the unnecessary inconvenience that it is.
Emotion control:
Apple admittedly makes good software. They get you hooked in with software that simply works better than the competition (Windows), then charge more and more for hardware that is increasingly inferior with every generation. Yet somehow, they get enough people to believe that the lack of USB ports on the new MacBook Pros, for example, is an issue with the customer's expectations, rather than an arbitrary restriction designed to inconvenience and rip people off.
To sum it all up:
I don't think there's another manufacturer out there who could get away with charging premium prices for hardware which becomes increasingly more inconvenient with every generation (for no good reason), while retaining a loyal customer base who are willing to blame themselves for the product's shortcomings rather than blaming the company that's jerking them around.

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2021-04-18 03:38:27 (edited by Ethin 2021-04-18 03:41:27)

@20, well said. And I agree -- I don't think any other company could get away with pretty much scalping their user base every time they sell something. For example, the (new) iPad Pro that's coming out and will be demonstrated in the Spring Loaded conference in a few days has pretty much nothing new. Just the typical "new" stuff -- a better processor and a better camera. And you still have to pay a ridiculous price for it. I think it might also come with a new touch pen but other than that, nothing else new. So still, ridiculously overpriced. Sadly, they have enough users quite willing to shell out nearly as much as my system76 laptop costs, if not more, all because Apple says that they should... And they get far worse specs in most cases, particularly for the MacBooks. Of course, the phones and iPads and such are lower priced than the laptops, but they're still overpriced.

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2021-04-18 04:11:37

My System76 came out $1000 cheaper than the MacBook would have, and the MacBook would have had significantly lower specs.
When I bought my current MacBook Pro in 2017, I paid right around $3000 for it. For that price I could only get 256GB of storage, which was nowhere near enough. So I set up iCloud and took advantage of its 'optimized storage' feature, like Apple expects you to do. Only trouble was, Apple decides which files can be removed from your computer to save space, not you. So I frequently encountered situations where I was on a bus or a flight and needed to access a file, but the black box had removed it without my knowledge.
Then it occurred to me that this was absolute madness. I was paying $10 per month for iCloud, on top of the $3000 I already paid for the machine, Apple had all my data (in some cases the only copy of it) and I felt completely powerless and violated. So I installed Nextcloud on my server and moved all my data there. I still couldn't have it all sync with my Mac, of course, so I just offloaded the excess to an 'archive' folder on my server, which finally allowed me to decide which files I would need rarely enough to put them in inconvenient storage.
Then my right-arrow key started failing, as is completely understandable for a Voiceover user. To have the keyboard replaced and the storage upgraded would cost more than the machine.
Over the past three years I switched from Hotmail to self-hosted email, switched from iCloud to self-hosted Nextcloud and started self-hosting Bitwarden, so it made sense to switch my personal computer to Linux as well (now that Electron apps are more accessible with Orca than they were a couple of years ago).
I compared a MacBook Pro with 2TB of SSD, a 2.X GHZ quad core processor and 32GB of ram to a Lemur Pro with a 4.7GHZ quad core processor, 40GB of ram and 4TB of SSD storage. The lemur was an entire $1000 less.
Screw apple. I'll run OSX in a VM for the purposes of compiling cross platform code, because I feel I've given them more than enough only to have been utterly shafted. Credit where credit is due on the accessibility front, however.

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2021-04-18 05:36:59

@22, I'm not sure how much my MacBook pro was. I think it might've been at least $1500.00 (it was a late 2013 one when I had it). The specs though were absolutely horrendous though. It only had 128 GB of space, if I remember right, and 8 GB of RAM. I don't remember the baseline Lemur specs but I think that the baseline was those exact specs and the baseline of the Lemur was $799.00. They don't sell the original Lemur anymore, but still, I paid $700.00 more for pretty much the same specifications. Talk about ridiculous.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
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2021-04-18 05:47:37

Oh, I am not necessarily denying that they do hit BITE model points. Just that they don't hit it perfectly. For me, when I hear that phrase, I think they get high scores on every point of each part. That being said, yeah, I have no good reason to move to apple products.  There are some fields that really  just run better in the apple environment, and while I do perform in one of those fields, I'm willing to do the extra leg work to get things rolling on other operating systems. I have that luxury.

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C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
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2021-04-18 05:55:39

I should note here that I do own an M1 Mac, because when I go to college and start taking programming classes, I want to make sure it's as cross platform  as it can get. If I was able to emulate arm, purchase an arm computer for significantly less, or build Mac programs on something other than a Mac, I would have never even thought of getting one in the first place. That's the problem. If you're developing Apple products you have to either shell out for their gear or just fuck over people who choose Apple over anything else. I can tell you that I've got a friend who is loyal to Apple, and if I made a program on everything minus IOS she would be super pissed.

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