2021-04-07 05:12:44 (edited by Phoenix009 2021-04-08 05:26:52)

Hi
Today the world wide web, or WWW, has dominated the internet. Statistical reports say that in google’s database alone, there are twenty petabytes of information, a petabyte being more than a million gigabytes, or gb.
With this in mind, then, creativity can take a whole new level.
Who am I?
My name is Pranav Savla. I’m a fifteen-year-old student from Bangalore, India.
Apart from studies, I’ve been learning to code for the past three years now, recently delving into web development, learning about React, Javascript, and Flask. Don’t worry about what these are, because I’ll talk about them in the coming weeks.
Wait, what do I mean by weeks?
Well, since I’ve been priviliged to learn web development, I now want to share this knowledge with others. I’m thus starting a 5 week course on web development.
What are the prerequisites?
None. No prior programming experience is inferred or required. You just need to have a strong drive to learn.
What will be covered?
We’ll start with HTML and CSS, looking at how you can make static sites. We’ll then move into Python and Flask, looking at how you can make serverside web apps, in time looking at SQL and databases, and finally going to Javascript and React, looking at how you can make your sites more dynamic, or basically more responsive to what the user does. Finally, we’ll end by looking at some security threats, and scalability issues, or problems when getting your site out to the masses of people.
What’s the schedule?
Lectures, starting this week, will be held on every Wednesday and Friday from 3 PM. They’ll be two hours long.
How can I join?
Just click the link below this post.
https://classroom.google.com/c/MzEyNDc0 … jc=vpt363u

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.

2021-04-07 07:02:12

At the risk of being "that guy", I'm not feeling inspired by a course description with spelling mistakes in it, and no capital letters in the title.

Take care,
Chris Norman
Selling my soul to andertons.co.uk since 2012.

2021-04-07 08:50:23

Hi there, i would love to participate in this course, how ever, i am on a verry tight schedule... I can't because i've got studies and a lot of work to do at the moment... how ever, if the course had a full text version, i could do it at my own pace.

best regards
never give up on what ever you are doing.

2021-04-07 10:46:53

@2 this is not an english grammer corce isn't it? and from what I concluded he will be doing it by his voice so almost no typing needed unles its typing code, and it is not paid, so I se no problom with it

Unpleasant, something unusual, the barrier between dreams and reality has been broken, and the most frightening of dreams have leaked to the realm of reality, is it just another nightmare?
my github!

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2021-04-07 11:28:39

Hi guys

@2, apologies for the mistakes.
@3, you can watch the recorded material.

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.

2021-04-07 12:22:09

Ok, then i might do it... Please just note that i won't be able to attend the classes at all... as i said, we've got a lot of work to do.
Thus i will only be able to do it in my free time. if it's fine with you, cool.

best regards
never give up on what ever you are doing.

2021-04-07 14:49:28

Doesn't matter whether it's an english course or not. When you work in academics, you strive to be error free.

Join me in eliminating BGT from the forum.
It's very easy, if you see a topic about BGT, simply don't reply to it.
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2021-04-07 15:53:53

I see where meatbag is coming from, but not even adding an apostrophe even after being told the title has errors doesn't help your case, I mean, even though the product is free you should strive to present it as best and professionally you possibly can

Who has any time for the letter h?

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2021-04-07 15:58:06

I don't see where he's coming from at all. He likes to make these horrible comparisons that sound more like weak jabs. Academia is the one place where you really do have to care about presentation. It used to be that when you went online, you would rarely encounter spelling errors. Now, it's an every day occurrence.

Join me in eliminating BGT from the forum.
It's very easy, if you see a topic about BGT, simply don't reply to it.
If you're thinking about creating a topic about BGT, just don't.
Doing these things will cause all such topics to sink to oblivion.

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2021-04-07 17:00:25

I'm with GrannyCheeseWheel here. This doesn't exactly inspire me. You could go and find tons of free tutorials on all the topics listed above, tutorials with text and materials which are actually credible. I'm not saying the OP is not, but he really does not have anything to his name which would encourage somebody to follow his advice.
Also, why Flask, exactly? Django offers a lot more than Flask

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2021-04-07 17:37:20

+, there's the small fact that putting this on your CV will get you, uh, right about nowhere. Generally speaking, people take courses, be that in a university or whatever setting, in the hope that they will end up looking nice on paper. Oh sure, they might hope they can learn something from it, too, but really, post secondary is almost all about proving your knowledge.

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2021-04-08 01:23:17 (edited by Ethin 2021-04-08 01:23:37)

How exactly are you going to teach this in 5 weeks? There's a really, really good reason universities spread it across a 4-month period, and that's to teach good database design too (as well as good security fundamentals). Good DB design and security are both difficult things to get right, though security is harder to get right than DB design.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

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2021-04-08 01:45:57

I think it's worth pointing out that it was only last week that OP was asking for help with very basic JS/React stuff.  And as I recall OP was also teaching a React class a few months back.  If they're the same person, I'm not sure what's up with that, but even if they aren't I do still find myself wondering.  Maybe they're way better with the things that they know, but in general you need to be an order of magnitude better than your audience to teach something and this is going to cover all sorts of stuff that you can just get a dime a dozen options for off the internet already.  Also, not sure how you're going to teach blind coders without written materials--it's not like we can read your screen, and voice only is probably just about the worst way to do it, if that's the idea.

I'll be ignored and probably slightly hated for saying this, but  consider whether you're doing your audience any favors because you think it'd be cool to teach a class.  A bad class is worse than no class at all, even if it's free.  The people taking the class don't know that it's bad until after they've invested all the time, since if they knew the content they wouldn't have taken the class in the first place.  You should ask yourself what you have to add to the discussion, what thing is uniquely yours that you can't already just go out and get, and if you don't have anything you shouldn't do it.  if the answer here is accessibility, then make it about that only: here are some common tools, here are how the command line alternatives work.  That's useful.  But if you want to teach a  general class you need to be a senior level developer, and even then nothing is going to differentiate your stuff from the next guy.

My Blog
Twitter: @camlorn38

2021-04-08 02:20:13 (edited by defender 2021-04-08 02:27:53)

I mean, I think you guys could be gentler while still making the same points, instead of proving the stereotype of socially inept elitist programmers correct.
I've no doubt your points are good, but at least the guy is trying to help people in a positive way.  Try not to forget that when you respond.
This isn't stack overflow, you don't have to be a robot to fit in.
After all I'm sure that you guys had allot of idealistic, badly planned ideas at your age too.  Until he proves that he really needs the bubble bursting, maybe consider the effect you're coldness could be having a little more?
At least take the time to explain in depth why it's a bad idea like Camlorn did, rather than using spelling errors as your only real reason.

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2021-04-08 03:06:08

@14, we're not proving that stereotype, and I don't buy that argument. We're pointing out legitimate errors in his delivery.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

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2021-04-08 05:26:32

Hi Guys

To quite an extent, your posts are right. I'll update the title, first off.

Also, it is true that I did struggle with react, and the API, but turns out, it was the API, and not really my react code.
Also, about the 5 weeks, well CS50 beyond, another programming course, was done in 6 days, and that went into a lot of detail on each topic.
Finally, it is true that guides would help quite a bit. However, this course is actually meant for those who haven't stepped into coding at all, and thus also teaches them python, and programming constructs on the way.
Also, from the accessibility standpoint, this course is actually also meant for the so called enabled people as well. I apologized if I forgot to mention that earlier.

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.

2021-04-08 05:31:51

I don't think this has reached anywhere near what you'll find on programmer sites. It's a simple message, there's a problem with the delivery, and something I noticed that Camlorn said is that yeah, he was asking questions related to the thing he's trying to teach. I'm by no means a good coder, I know that. I got to where I am though because I had a mentor. He did not google shit, or ask questions on stack overflow and get back to me, he knew his shit and still does.

now that's the best way I learn programming. I can get so far with books, but then too many questions mount up and if I don't have the opportunity to ask someone, I just can't go any further, unless I see those questions answered somewhere, or I see a code sample where I can deduce how and why something is done the way it is.

I do agree that programmers can be antisocial. Generally, when you have that strong knack for coding, it's tied with not just an ability for solving problems and puzzles, but almost a need to do it. It's logic. When you have to memorize truth tables and you build that ability to logic on the fly, it hampers your emotional awareness, or you just never develop it. There are obviously exceptions to this, but the point is, your compiler isn't going to take pity because you broke down crying after a half hour of trying to fix errors and it's still bitching about something.

But yeah, a stereotype becomes so because there's an element of truth to it. I've seen my fair share of cocky programmers with god complexes, I just don't think we've hit anywhere near there right now.

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2021-04-08 05:54:36 (edited by Ethin 2021-04-08 05:55:04)

@16, your definitely going to have to extend your course time then. Teaching programming concepts and fundamentals along with web programming is not for the faint of heart, particularly since you'll end up teaching them two programming languages and two markup languages, maybe more. Stuffing that in 5 weeks is probably not going to work very well for you.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.
My Github

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2021-04-08 06:15:50

Hi

Well, to quite an extent again, you guys are right.
@18, I will think about increasing course time, thanks for pointing that out.

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.

2021-04-08 06:24:13

@15
This doesn't really help your case much.  Also, I consider myself one of the more experienced people on here and the fastest I've ever, ever seen someone learn to program is 6 months and that took literally more than 40 hour weeks for the entire time.  Your example class has a ton of prerequisites and is by Harvard.  Leaving aside the fact that "I struggled some, but that's okay, I can teach it anyway" is *exactly* why you shouldn't try to teach something, the most you're going to get someone who has never programmed in 5-6 weeks is something super basic like guessing games, if you want any level of understanding and not just handing them a Django app that's ready to go and say customize the templates.  This can't succeed as written.

@17
You're wrong about where it comes from.  You can get to a certain level of coding without changes, but people aren't exactly built for it.  It's not that the compiler complains or that you build up persistence or you somehow start treating other people like your tools or anything like that, at least not in my opinion or my case.  It's compression.  You learn to, I guess call it think big.  It's like compressing that giant high-def video file for a cell phone connection or something--you have to be super super efficient with the language part, and even once you are you still end up leaving a lot of what you're actually thinking out.  But even after all of that you still have to convey all 20 aspects of the situation because they're all actually important and if you get even one wrong it will all fall down, and when a question gets asked there's 5 answers each contingent on weird and nonobvious things like whether it's the 5th of March and snowing outside or whatever else.  And as soon as you try to put it into words you're cutting huge chunks of it off, and there's just not much room left for all this secondary signalling, and so do you get rid of the secondary signalling, or do you get rid of the points you want to make?  And then, at a professional level half your job is telling other people--even people you respect, even people smarter than you--that their code could be better, because if it's not the best it could be whatever you're working on broke, and maybe that's your hobby project, but maybe it's the multimillion dollar company, or the medical equipment, or the missile, or...

And then, you do that every day.  For years and years.  Maybe you start young.  Maybe whatever lets someone like myself have that sort of drive, not to just program but to be methodical about it, to actively build the skill in a way where you do reach these levels as opposed to a way which is about what you get out of it, about having the next script or whatever, but instead something where someone says "this is called a linked list" and you don't even care what it's used for because it's fascinating by itself and just knowing that someone, somewhere has a practical use is enough to hold your interest...maybe that contributes.  Maybe that capacity for being weird like that is just already there.  I don't know.

But I don't find the programming sites off-putting because I get it.  There's no subtext.  But everyone who doesn't get it expects subtext.  And so everything that gets said "no seriously the sky is blue, go outside and look", gets extended by the subtext-expecting people to add on an implied "you idiot" or whatever.  And now suddenly we're toxic elitist communities instead of what is, I guess kind of a learned switchable temporary autism or something.  It's really hard to put this into words well.  I used to be much better at subtext-related tasks, and much better at making sure that the subtext I send is the subtext I want to send, rather than just sending no subtext and having everyone take that as subtext because we're people and obviously, obviously there has to be some.

Don't get me wrong.  There's definitely problematic sites.  But what I mostly see is a lot of people who don't understand what they're looking at, and when they understand they don't understand, it's reasons like yours where it's "they interact with computers, and you can talk to the computer like that".  And the entire thing irritates me a lot because it's like seriously, programming isn't assembling tables or something where the carpenter got blunt because of the hammer and cutting because of the saw, it's actually this weird science-art alien thinking thing where it's not quite math and not quite science and not quite painting and you sort of had to break your brain on the way to understanding it all if you want to do the sorts of things that come out of Google or whatever.  You literally can't even reason about multiple threads in any human language that exists, never mind more complicated stuff, of course it's going to change you if you keep pushing against it.

Anyway.  Obviously this is one of my buttons.

My Blog
Twitter: @camlorn38

2021-04-08 06:40:41

Hi

@20, on further contemplation you are completely right.
Well, I guess the good thing that's come out of this is the fact that I've learned how to manage a course time, and to see to the actual requirements of people.
I'll have to let this class go by, see how it ends, but this has taught me to be more mindful of the things I start beforehand.
Thanks a ton for those words!

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.

2021-04-08 06:47:46 (edited by defender 2021-04-08 06:48:41)

@camlorn
Good points.  A bit hard to follow but I do understand more now, though I'm still not super happy about it.  What I think you are getting at is that coding makes you think efficiently to survive so you communicate efficiently as well, and when talking to other coders you assume they feel the same way by default.
To an outsider or beginner this often looks cold, overly judgmental, and egotistical.  Maybe for people who commonly force them selves to ignore negative emotions and stretch their brain's beyond the comfortable limit to achieve a goal, it's assumed that others will be willing to do so as well, and therefor treating them with kid gloves is just a waste of time.
Am I close?


Either way, I find that coders with a healthy family life or other positive social influences outside of their work (less obsessive/self absorbed) and or a stable career without much job stress, can selectively suppress this tendency at least outwardly when communicating.  You can still see that thread running through their personality underneath the surface, and it often serves them well when managing projects or community feedback, but it doesn't rub people the wrong way nearly as often.

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2021-04-08 08:38:18

Can the stereotype that programmers are anti-social or the myth that programming makes you anti-social just freacking die already? It is one of my greatest pet peeves.

There was a time that people who are naturally anti-social would gravitate to programming, since they could get started with it without even talking to people, unlike other hobbies. But, the truth is that professionally, you won't get far, unless you are a hacker genius. Lack of social skills and being able to communicate respectfully are absolutely necessary to keep getting promoted, particularly when being promoted to a role where you also manage other people.

Working at JP Morgan as a software engineer, every SE I've met or worked with was sociable and communicated respectfully. Project leads tended to be the nicest and most sociable bunch of them all.

Although of course less technical roles like product owners were more heavily selected for sociability, since their whole job is essentially keeping the different teams from picking up spiked clubs and murdering each other over API designs Gangs of New York style.

I'll admit, this is the only big company I've worked at as an SE, so maybe investment banks select for social skills more heavily than other businesses (they surely have the capital to do so). Another investment bank I interviewed for also heavily tested for social skills. Being interviewed for both that job and the one I have was half demonstrating technical skill and half showing you can read social situations, be charming, assertive when you need to be, and also just fun to work with.

The whole point I am trying to make is that programming does not turn you into a robot or anti-social. I certainly don't think I am either and I've met hordes of SEs who aren't either.

Interestingly, I do feel there was a period some time after losing my eyesight and starting to use screen readers heavily that I started adopting anti-social behaviors. Namely, I noticed I would start interrupting people or urging them to finish their point faster. I think this could be since I would get so used to being able to interrupt my screen reader whenever I want or to speed it up ad libidum. Fortunately, I think I've been able to mostly reverse that by becoming aware of it.

Camlorn, sorry I respect you a lot, but I think you are just using programming to justify your cold communication style and rationalizing. I'm not telling you to change, nor should you necessarily do so. But, I'm not convinced working long time as an SE has that effect. Although, I will admit maybe it could be the case for some companies, in which case I would argue it is more the work culture than the profession.

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2021-04-08 13:24:42

3pm eestern time?

Inspector, you've obviously learned too much about me. I can't have that. Not even in my death

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2021-04-08 14:18:09

Lol another thing I forgot to mention, screw me! smile))
Nah, it's 3 PM Indian Standard time.

Well, looks like android's better because of customization.
I'll switch to... Oh wait...
Google just nuked Multifinger gestures on my OnePlus! Mad! Mad! Mad! :(((
I'll just go back to my IPhone then.