2019-08-12 20:49:33

No, I don't mean any mainstream game that's a little bit playable. I mean the small but growing number of games we're seeing that are pretty much completely accessible and only require the installation of steam or buying of a console to be played. Stop being afraid of steam, people. Even that's becoming more accessible as said in pitermach's guide. Right now the games I could think of immediately that would deserve a database entry are sequence storm, skullgirls, and alt frequencies, at the very least. It's just strange to me how games like code 7 have entries while skullgirls, which has been accessible for a very long time and around for even longer, still doesn't have one.

Bar, bar, bar...
Bar is my name and to go bar is my aim...
Sometimes I'll go "Bad bar",
But in the end its always bar, ahem beer, ahem bar! beer bar!

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2019-08-13 05:18:20 (edited by defender 2019-08-13 05:18:53)

Yeah, that is weird, but the database is incredibly spotty even with audio games.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for what's there, how ever it could be allot better.
It seems like the only time things get added are when Dark happens to see them and becomes somewhat interested.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-08-13 13:26:15 (edited by Dark 2019-08-13 13:27:22)

@connor142, this is a legitimate question. As I remember, when steam last came up the decision would be that steam games would be added firstly when the games were fully accessible as you said, and secondly when there was a reliable guide which people could link to on game entries, I understood that certain other staff members who were more familiar with games like Skullgirls would be putting those things together, which is why I  haven't investigated myself at this stage, as manifestly it'd be  better if both the guide and entries were written by people who were more experienced with that sort of thing than I currently am.

Since Pitermach has now created a guide for steam, I'll have a word with the other staff and see, since while its true that most of the work on the Db gets done by me, that's not because its my personal preserve or anything like that. Hopefully some of the other staff will be able to put time into things, if not it might just have to wait until I've worked my way around steam myself, which in fairness is something I ought to do just for the experience if nothing else.

@Defender, First, if the db was based on just what games "dark was interested in" then there would be a hell of a lot of games not in it big_smile.

Second, if the database is as you put it "incredibly spotty" please be more specific. What audiogames aren't added that you think should be? Neither myself nor anyone else makes any claim to be omniscient here, and in case you haven't noticed when errors get pointed out they do get fixed.

Yes, of course if i happen to have played a game myself I write about it since it'd be stupid not to, however there are lots of occasions when the converse is true as well, and I end up playing games just so that I can write up a description for them, even if they're games  wouldn't normally interest me, EG the entire Azabat catalogue, a lot of the sports management games, many of the blindfold titles (many of which still need adding), etc.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-08-13 13:56:56

Hi.

Pardon me saying this like that, but I think we don't need anymore blindfold titles in the database. If you'd put them all in it would clutter up the hole thing neetlessly with all but the same game and I suppose the majority of the playerbase is sucking Martys noodle over there at applevis, so I think we're good without those game in the DB.

but I generally agree that accessible mainstream games should be a thing these days and I'm slowly but surely getting pissed at those people who always cry about steam not beeing accessible, dang it, it is already, try before you cry, should be the motto for this debate.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-08-13 14:56:45

@Simba, the Db is intended as at least theoretically a complete database of accessible games, hence why irrespective of what I or others think of a title it at least should always get an entry, albeit as I said, if people have certain preferences that should be moved up the cue let us know, since as in the case of WEBL I'm certainly not against giving priority  things people think are particularly worthy for one reason or another.

As regards steam, my main reservation in terms of access was the need to use OCr and poke and hope methods to get the client installed, especially with Valve's less than friendly attitude to accessibility discussion.
Since however looking at Pitermach's guide it sounds like that's no longer the case its probably soemthing I need to investigate myself, albeit as I said if some of our other staff who are more familiar with steam want to do something in the mean while that would be appreciated.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-08-13 15:12:03

Well, there are close to a hundred apps you'd need to add to the db in the case of blindfold games, and let's not mention that there are some games which are duplicates of other games, like blindfold word bingo basically being a glorified version of blindfold bingo, just in another app so Marty can add new micros for word bingo and make money off of both games.`

Bar, bar, bar...
Bar is my name and to go bar is my aim...
Sometimes I'll go "Bad bar",
But in the end its always bar, ahem beer, ahem bar! beer bar!

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2019-08-13 15:23:14 (edited by Dark 2019-08-13 15:24:07)

If games are literally the same game, even if they come in two separate versions its easy enough  to just mention as much on the description, so if indeed word bingo basically just works like bingo as you said I might just add a description to the bingo entry when I get around to adding it, as I did with the "with friends" versions of some of the existing blindfold games, or for that matter, with games that have both Pc and Ios versions, such as Seed ship or Alterego.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-08-13 15:48:03 (edited by musicalman 2019-08-13 15:56:08)

simba wrote:

I'm slowly but surely getting pissed at those people who always cry about steam not beeing accessible, dang it, it is already, try before you cry, should be the motto for this debate.

Can we please stop with the condescension? I ran into hurdles myself when installing Steam, mostly because there wasn't an up-to-date guide on it. Congrats to anyone who didn't need that guide, but that doesn't mean you have to show superiority by blaming those who are nervous/frustrated. Everyone learns differently and adjusts differently. Maybe if this site had a section on Steam games, with links in more visible places to that excellent guide, then the so-called crying will stop.

Now for the main point of this topic: Yes I am in full agreement that mainstream games should be added if they are mostly playable and the details clearly laid out as to what is and isn't doable without sight, of course without giving away spoilers. I've wanted such a resource for years. For the record, I don't count text-driven games. For one, those are really easy to make accessible, and second I am not a big fan of those. I'm talking action/adventure/arcade games. I really would love to see more on those kinds of games. I am intimidated by playing mainstream games like that. They don't really guide you through the interface and mechanics like audio games do and they tend to be complicated. Yeah I know I might be crying before i'm trying here, but I grew up with audio games and no mainstream. At that rate, I'm not sure what that says about me, but I seem to be alone in this since everyone seems to be confidently diving into mainstream games these days, leaving me feeling kinda lost. However, a couple years ago I posted a thread asking about which mainstream games I should try that were decently accessible, and iirc I asked if there were resources to help get used to those games more easily, and that thread got no responses. So I dunno.

I'd be willing to try mainstream games a lot more if there were resources out there (menu guides, clear sound demos when needed, accessibility features etc) for audio gamers to work with. From what I have gathered, menu guides and other resources occasionally do come up, but are scattered. So I'm hoping to see that change, or if there are more organized resources already, that they will soon start making appearances. Hmm, a sticky thread in general discussion for resources on where to learn about how to make mainstream games more playable might be a great idea when we have enough to post in it.

Oh and I am also agreeing with Dark about the Blindfold games. We don't want to be displaying open bias about which games we choose and refuse to add to the db. We're audio games, after all. We aren't trying consciously to be a niche subset, so like it or not, we have to be accommodating.

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
If you like what you're reading, please give a thumbs-up.

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2019-08-13 16:34:50

As long as we don't start adding games that only work with menu guides into the db, that#s a good idea.

Coding is fun. You can how ever only code good if you have enough motivation to do so.

Give the new devs a motivation. Don't expect to much from their first steps cause after all they are new, but give them some chances.

2019-08-13 16:45:14

Steam is not accessible. It is usable, there's a big difference.

Pain is life and life is pain.

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2019-08-13 17:17:51 (edited by musicalman 2019-08-13 17:20:34)

@9, if there's a menu guide for a game that is largely accessible past the menus i.e. has sounds which are enough to help a blind player along, I would still count that game as worthy of the db provided there's a stable link to that menu guide. But it's an arguable point and depends on how much the game uses menus, and how accessible the game is outside the menus.

Actually I just thought of something. Do we want to be audiogames.net or do we want to be accessiblegames.net? There's a big difference. Audio games, to me, refer to games which are audio driven. Accessible games refer to games which are not initially audio driven or screen reader accessible, but which are workable with some accessibility features and advancements in other technology such as OCR. I think we have been trying to draw a line between accessibility in mainstream games and audio-driven games for the blind for years. This has been happening for good and bad reasons. But ideally, I'd love to see a resource for all of it combined. I am a bit skeptical that audiogames.net will become that. We're too small at present and this community has a niche feel about it. But I'm still hoping we can expand one day.

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
If you like what you're reading, please give a thumbs-up.

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2019-08-13 18:31:52

One of the things we said when deciding this way back when, is nothing like Mortal Kombat until something's fully accessible. Skullgirls was the game that was mentioned. It's actually been something I've been wanting to do for a while, with a caviat that the game uses the Steam client. At the moment, I can not quite justify Madden 20 being in the db but if a bit more narration was added, we'd be pretty close to having that one as well. I think that would be an absolute landmark if that happened.

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2019-08-13 22:55:28

I don't think any mainstream games should be in the db honestly.

Pain is life and life is pain.

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2019-08-14 05:34:14 (edited by Dark 2019-08-14 05:35:10)

I agree with Aaron on the point of accessibility here. If sighted people don't need to use menu descriptions and learn sounds by memorisation to play a game, then its not accessible. This isn't to say people shouldn't play it  and get what fun out of it they can, indeed its a testament to people's persistence that some people have, just that its not an "accessible" game and shouldn't be in the db.

On the other hand, games that have speaking menus, methods of learning or responding to the games sounds, where developers are obviously making an effort with the access definitely belong in the db, both to let people know of their existence, and to let devs know we appreciate what they're doing.

I admit a few years ago I was averse to dealing with steam, since I disliked the idea of supporting a platform whose main developers had such a bad attitude to accessibility, and where unusual methods like ocr was necessary for installation.

However, I was not aware at that stage that you could run steam games on their own once installed without need to tangle with the client, meaning that tangling with the client was like adding a  brail label to a cd or dvd, a pain in  arse to do first time, but once its done its done.

Plus of course, as I said, looking at the steps needed to run Steam now, it seems no longer as much of a big deal as it used to be, so if the games are indeed accessible, there really is no reason not to at this point.

Hell, it might help convince Valve blind gamers actually exist big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-08-14 05:52:58 (edited by defender 2019-08-14 05:57:09)

Dark I mostly meant within the last year or so, and incredibly spotty was an overstatement so sorry about that.  More it's just slow, and yes spotty, but not terribly so.
For instance take your reasoning behind not adding the Yugioh mud.  You don't get how it works, so it's not getting added, and no one else is around to do it it seems.
By the way, there is actually a small guide in the articles room for it...
But I'm also not blaming you alone.  Many staff were brought on just for database management and news article writing, and no one but you seems to have been doing either for months now.


Here are some examples
Audio rally racing
Dark Defender
Audio moto championship
Alt Frequencies
Bit Life
The blood rain from CH-Games.ru/en
Lifeline for IOS and Android
At The Voices' End for Android
Dark Passenger
Life Simulator for IOS
Ear hockey
Mideval dynasty for IOS
Duels RPG for Android
Offensive World
The girl who soled the world
tau station
Legacy
Shut the box by A T Guys
The Joker's wild bonus round
Deal or no deal by A T Guys (nathantech has a game of the same name)
The various chinese games but that's up to you as translation options are spotty.
Text Spaced
The various pokimon browser games
Cavern Quest
Swords roguelike
Ruler of Kings browser game
Texas holdem by Apple though that may be redundant
Titan Conquest MMO
The X3 series with player made scripts?
Lots of MUDS
Word Mixer for Android
Backgammon with buddies
Various games for the echo, though I know you did make an unofficial list at one point
Last Stand of Ra?
A few incremental games, though they are pretty much all just reskins of the same system
MR. President text game for Android
Landlord Tycoon?
Animal Acres?
Dungeon RPG for Android
Galatium browser game
IDT Balling
Two steps for Android
Thaumistry
SoniFight?
World of Potter browser game
Escapebeat from audio game Jam2
Word Rescue for Android
Subeta?
ascension Text RPG for Windows and Android
The Company
Roboid Inc?
Traveler's quest IOS game?
Storium
Four in a Line, Four in a Row for Android
project terran browser game
Twisted tales by sonnar interactive
Nabber's empire
Mondozoo browser game?
Flight of dragons browser game
immortal Day browser game?
mithicreign browser game
Brogue speak?
Suddenly lost text game for IOS
Blind Samurai for Android
Voyageur for IOS
Orbs browser CCG?
Various "uken" titles for IOS and Android
Worldsmith text game
Game of worlds text game
Time of Castles browser game?
Stone soup?
Rocket Neo?
Hack run for IOS
europe1300 browser game
The Martian for IOS?
Eamon Adventure Browser?
Lords browser game?
theta poker pro for IOS
Town of parrel
2D platformer
Frits16?
Shooter Concept Demo
Battlezone reloaded concept demo
Iminent death
Frequency Missing for IOS
And I'm sure I'm missing plenty.

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-08-14 06:08:41 (edited by Dark 2019-08-14 06:11:54)

Thanks for the list.
Actually some of those have pages already, EG Cavern quest is in compilation 1, others like Audio rally racing, moto championship, Textspaced and Yugio mud are in the pipeline and are going to get entries soon.
Btw, where did you get the idea the yugio mud wouldn't get an entry? I never said it wouldn't, only that  hadn't personally got into the game because of lack of documentation and complexity, please don't confuse "games dark plays" and "games that get added to the db" since while those are two related categories, they're definitely not the same thing at all.

Also though remember that "accessible" criteria. Rgouelikes like stone soop won't be getting pages so long as there isn't a way to review the screen, and muds only get pages if there is some degree of screen reader adaptation to the output (since if we added each and every mud people played we'd turn into the mud connector).

Likewise, games need to be somewhat complete, and last I checked I wasn't sure of the status of some like dark defender and 2d platformer.

I will admit android titles are more difficult, because I don't have an android device to test them on.

With titles for the Echo, I am not actually sure, since on the one hand there are games like vortex, six swords and starlanes that definitely need entries, on the other there are a hole bunch of smaller word or trivia games, and what the cut off here is I'm not sure.

As I said, the db will pretty much always be a work in progress and likely there will  always be games that need adding to it, but its having the resource there that counts, that and making constant updates, and I freely do admit the last few months I  haven't done as much as I should've done.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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2019-08-14 06:32:29 (edited by defender 2019-08-15 00:07:20)

Yeah, I understand all that.  And to be honest it was better than I had thought it would be.  Mostly it's just slow, and I wish more people were around to actually help rather than just say they would.
Consheera the trinity, if they were willing, would be an awesome database resource for android games for instance...

Buy the worlds greatest machine gun. It's about 50 inches in length, It's huge! & it can shoot really far, &, it's cheap!
Lets demonstrate this: stand still Thom...
Okay ma.aaa!
Oh! crap!

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2019-08-14 09:16:53 (edited by connor142 2019-08-14 09:19:23)

@14, this is precisely why I was only talking about games like skullgirls and alt frequencies. These are games with full menu naration where you don't need to reference any sort of guide to play them. I wouldn't give games like mk XI or madden entries, at least not at the present time, though I think madden's accessibility features will probably advance to the stage where an entry would be the most logical thing to do. I don't know about mk but until you can do things like read the move lists within the game itself, and do the tutorials without the tutorial guides posted in the mk thread, writing an entry for it should be delayed. Some more db editors who actually edit  the db would probably help too. Dark does pretty much all of the db writing these days, while Sender and Richard seem to be busy with site maintenance, I do remember some older entries having been written by them. I wonder if people like Pitermach or Liam could be given db editing rights, since Liam's an active mod and Piotr can already write news posts?

Bar, bar, bar...
Bar is my name and to go bar is my aim...
Sometimes I'll go "Bad bar",
But in the end its always bar, ahem beer, ahem bar! beer bar!

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2019-08-14 15:58:52

Dark wrote:

I was not aware at that stage that you could run steam games on their own once installed without need to tangle with the client

Actually that's not technically correct. While you can add desktop shortcuts through Steam, it still uses the client to launch the game. Some games can be launched without Steam even running, but these are not the majority. Anything that ties in with Steam even to the least little degree needs it to be running, so even if you launched the game using the executable inside it's actual folder, it probably will not work. Some do, and many others do not.

Pain is life and life is pain.

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2019-08-14 16:27:23

Well, you just need to click on steam, wait a bit till your logged in, and you can run your games.

The only time you might need to use the client again is when you want to install new titles, but that is easily manageable.

Greetings Moritz.

Hömma, willze watt von mir oder wie, weil wenn nich, dann lass dir mal sagen, laber mir kein Kottlett anne Wange und hömma, wo wir gerade dabei sind, dann iss hier hängen im Schacht, sonns klapp ich dir hier die Fingernägel auf links, datt kannze mir mal glaubn.

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2019-08-15 18:13:33

@Dark as long as Steam itself is running when you launch a game, that's pretty much it unless it's a game that's being updated at the time of launch, in that case Steam will still be downloading the update.

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