2019-04-16 03:31:13 (edited by The Dwarfer 2019-04-16 03:39:22)

Completely agreed with Iron Cross there. Not to mention people basing their argument on the twisting of another to fit an extreme to which the argument being made can only apply (such as implying that I see the apology as an attention grab rather than the introduction, telling me I don't get to say a certain opinion, presuming I expected he had mastered the challenge completely, and assuming that I just expected him to just do it snaplike. Also, differing prospective is not ignorance towards the world, because everyone deals and does differently. It's also not a matter of privilage to be resilient or expect a higher level of resilience out of some people. In fact, some of the most resilient people are some of the least privileged... but I will tell you that expecting forgiveness and support from a community you were an ass to is entitled and shows a limited view of the world.

Twitter: stevo399
Website: stevend.net
Have a nice day!

2019-04-16 06:24:12

Damn. Glad I don’t spend much time on this forum... how has this forum not been on the news yet? News companies will go content hungry over shit like this. If any admins want some cash... look for a news outlit

Roses are red,
Violets are yellow;
You challenge me to change my signature,
I say oh hell no.

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2019-04-16 07:46:51

Not sure what that even means, this place is the most insignificant little corner of the net you'd likely see. Also, what's the point in just dumping your little meanders here in a topic where we're having a little debate. It doesn't even have anything to do with the discussion on hand.

I'm the captain of this ship,
don't worry about the little clicks,
Everything is working fine,
nevermind that audible whine.

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2019-04-16 07:58:10

Okay, some more fun facts and perspective for you two.

1. Ironcross, you're sort of reminding me of a bull who charges every time he perceives movement. For you, that movement comes in the form of the word "privilege". I spoke it, you dropped everything and chased it, and you totally missed the point. In common parlance this is called a feint. It says far more about you than me, and until or unless you actually attempt to address the points I've made, I feel pretty safe in dismissing you.
2. TheDwarfer, you're doing a really excellent job of undermining your own supposed point of view. Let me explain. On one hand, you claim you have some sympathy and hope the guy gets headed in the right direction, and want to give at least a little more benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, you also felt it necessary, even given past experiences, to vent your sorta-kinda disbelief. You began the influx of doubt in this topic...an influx, I might add, which serves virtually no purpose. One day, when you encounter someone in your life with an addiction they can't kick, a neurosis they've struggled with, or some other recurring problem they are struggling with, I dare you to be this cavalier face to face with them. Listen to their voice crack. If you have a little sight or have the freedom to touch them, lay a hand on their shoulders and feel them wilt. Or, conversely, watch for the righteous anger. It'll probably have a lot of bitterness in it. What I'm trying to say is that you're doing virtually no good and plenty of harm. Your stated opinion does Danny no good, because you're foolish if you think he doesn't know where he is right now, and serves mainly to satisfy your own desire to slam someone. In this regard, and this alone, I share your pain, sir, because I'm doing precisely the same thing. The only difference is that I'm right and you aren't. I'm calling you out because your behaviour does not appear to be the result of mental illness or addiction or any other such thing. Put bluntly: you don't have any reason or excuse to justify this sort of campaign, so I'm calling you out. Now, if you do, in fact, have an underlying issue (or issues) which suggest that I am being too hard on you, or otherwise treating you unfairly, I urge you to bring them forward. Otherwise, let the guy leave. You don't have to believe his apology. No one's going to ask you to do that. But if you really aren't convinced, why the need to trumpet that fact?
3. Every argument I have made in this thread falls back on bad faith. If you can't figure that out, try a reread or three for clarification. I stand by what I said before though. If we haven't experienced a thing, then we don't have the means to actively judge it. I'm not addicted to any narcotics, so I don't know how hard it is to get off of them. Ditto alcohol. I don't have OCD, and I'm not a hoarder. I don't compulsively steal, or smoke cigarettes, or self-harm, or any such thing. I have other issues I don't really need to illustrate here, however, so I know in vague strokes how it feels to want to be better and to lack the self-confidence to fix things...to say more than once that you're going to fix something, to mean it in your bones, and to not know how, or to know exactly how and to fail anyway. If this sort of thing is outside your own lived experience, then you have the privilege of not knowing how it feels...just as some of you may identify with issues I myself do not possess. I'd never presume to tell you that if you tried hard enough, you could conquer your demons. I'd support you, sure, but talking about how your previous failures must imply that you're not trying hard enough, or that your words don't really bear any weight anymore...no, I'd never do that. I know better, because my experience doesn't grant me the right to say that. The fact that you believe otherwise is an extremely colourful example of privilege. Scream if you like, but the shoe fits, so start walking. Odds are, you've got about a mile left to go, and it's all uphill from here. But I know you can do it.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-04-16 08:10:14

Also, for anyone who follows after this, just one final piece of advice:

You do yourselves discredit by talking about extremism here. This isn't extremism. It's humanitarianism. Put another way, I just don't like people being kicked when they're down. As I pointed at before, it says more about the ones doling out those kicks than it ever could about the one on the ground taking it. I fight with some of you because you're on your feet and able to stand up for yourselves. It's a fair fight. Somebody walked in here, apologized and essentially got booted in the ribs. And never mind the potential "I could have been way meaner" argument. Zero ice with me. I'm appalled, and I have no desire to hide that fact.

Don't dress up your disbelief and try to tell me it's tough love. That's not really how a functional world works. You want to cause no harm, or maybe even do some good? Walk away. Turn your back. Shake your head, talk to your friends about how pathetic it all is if you really must. Bask in that privilege, because you won't have it forever, even if you do right now. It's a wonderful security blanket. But somewhere down the road, you might be the guy who's giving tired excuses. The guy who's failed three or four times to deliver on old promises or old apologies. The person who metaphorically sees weariness and disbelief when he looks at his friends after the latest screw-up. It happened to Danny. It can happen to anyone. Even you. Even me. Do you want to be given a metaphoric boot in the ribs by someone you might've respected once? Do you think that will help you get up any faster?

But I know that it means that some people will give up and bail. It does mean you can't expect an unlimited supply of second chances. I hear that loud and clear. But I think we can all agree that there's only so much tough love that will help. Most people who fail more than once are already pretty well saturated with guilt, shame, anger, self-loathing and god knows what else. Trust me, all the way down, when I tell you that they really don't need one more voice telling them that they're not quite believed anymore. That's not helpful. It's destructive. Don't be that one final kick that makes a person give up.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-04-16 10:01:44

I sat here and wrote this huge post, then scratched it out because it will make no difference, none at all. I just feel you're a lost cause. To your credit, I don't think you're a bad person, but you just... use all the wrong methods to try to get things done, and you're not seeing what's really going on, and I can't make you see it, nor can anyone else, so it's like screaming into the wind, utterly useless.

One thing though, just because I choose not to address every single point you or anyone else makes, doesn't mean I haven't seen it, processed it. I go after privilege because I believe that it is being used to demonize people for not having done something, or not having experienced something, and I feel that's wrong. I also don't see why we need to label people like that, it solves nothing.

I'm the captain of this ship,
don't worry about the little clicks,
Everything is working fine,
nevermind that audible whine.

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2019-04-16 10:08:08

@Jade: My point was this, and I wasn't trying to kick people if you got that impression offa my earlier posts. My point was simply: You (as a generalization, not you personally) don't know jack about Danny so shut up and stop assuming crap, mkaaaay?

That was my stance. I'm sorry but I'm not going to sit back and let random internet people who don't know the OP make assumptions about Danny when they don't really know him. Okay, sure, you spoke to him on a game for a while....but.......ya don't really know him. Same for anyone over the internet, really. Sure. I've pointed this message to Jade....but I dunno Jade beyond reading forum messages.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-04-16 14:21:54

@31, it seems that you are on a single-minded vendetta to ignore the very good points that Jade has made. It seem as though whenever he posts an argument you cannot fault, you come back with nonsense like "your a lost cause" and so on. He really isn't. You fight privilege because you believe that it is used to demonize privilege? OK. Perfectly reasonable. But needlessly taking it out on Jade and attempting to discredit his arguments with absolutely no evidence won't get you anywhere. Ive tired it, everyone has tried that, and it *never* works. If you want to prove that Jade is misusing the word privilege, prove it. If you want to make the claim that privilege does not exist, or any othe claims, I would love to see your evidence and how many people actually agree with your viewpoint, and what their according evidence is.
From the first post, The Dwarfer was attacking Danny. I have no doubt that he was gaining a form of satisfaction, a form of pleasure, from the experience. He was venting his rage and anger on him. But Danny was 'down'. He was incapable of fighting, yet the Dwarfer kept on going. Despite the fact that he does not know Danny very well at all. He made conclusions that were most likely incorrect. But you didn't do anything at that point. But its the more recent posts that have sparked this little rant of mine. You both do not know Danny very well. In fact, I'd go as far as to say you hardly, if at all, know him. If there are two people who know him far, far better han the both of you combined, it would be either me first and Jace Cae second or the other way around.
Now, I won't go into how privilege is simplified to 'a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.'. I'd be circling in this post if I did. But think about the definition I just gave, and *please* try to reevaluate your stance, would you? And if you can't... some actual proof, instead of claims, would be nice...

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-04-16 15:02:59

Something I'm wanting to know....where the mods at, because Dwarfers posts (to my way of thinking) break the personal attacks rule. Mods unless I missed it, you were in this topic, so I'dlike to see some action for attacking a user who is down and defenseless, or at least an even application of the rules. But that's just my 0.02

@Ethin: Agreed, Jade makes some good points, but I'm coming at this as being as nautral as possible. Now. I won't divulge any of what was said, but I think everyone can quite clearly see from some posts in this topic why Danny doesn't like this community, if I were in his shoes I would feel the precise same way as well.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-04-16 15:35:22

@34, true. I would do the same thing that he had done if a community deliberately show their disdain and outright hatred and scorn for my very existence too. Anyone ever considered that this display of hatred can drive others away?

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-04-16 15:51:48

The reason I have not acted in my capacity as a mod is because I feel it would be a little bit heavy-handed to do so. I really, really don't like what's happened though, so rather than deal with TheDwarfer as a mod, I impugned his faith user to user. He didn't say anything particularly heinous. I just think it was jerkish, is all.

Ironcross, you're still proving my point, and actually making it even stronger. At no point, none at all, have I demonized anyone for possessing privilege. You keep making that mistake, and I really am wondering when you'll stop. The possession of privilege is not a crime. A failure to recognize privilege isn't a crime either; at worst, again, it's sort of a jerk move to willingly turn a blind eye to it, but that's about it. If some howling leftist has convinced you that the mere possession of privilege is something you need to feel guilt about, perish the thought. Get rid of it, and re-examine the situation. I suggest only that you possess it, and you do. I do. Everyone has some of it somewhere. The only time I care is if and when the source of that privilege causes you or others (self included, for that matter) to say or do things that may hurt someone. In this case, if you haven't dealt with significant addiction or mental health issues, then you haven't been where Danny appears to be at right now. I have, at least to some extent. I'm no better than you, and I'm no worse than you. I simply have some perspective you do not have, and all that means is that I've been on the ground, so to speak, hearing someone say they don't believe my promises or apologies anymore. This is why I can tell you it doesn't help. If you really and truly didn't know it's not helpful, then your privilege has granted you ignorance. If you believed you and TheDwarfer and others like you would actually do some good, then again, your privilege is telling you that if a person tries hard enough, or just bloody well keeps their promise this time, then maybe things will be better. I'm not upset with you for not knowing, because maybe you don't have the tools. I'm upset that you're being told that you and your perspective is harmful, but rather than try and acknowledge that, you're just tied in knots about that p-word. A bull who sees movement. Re-examine that privilege. I'm confident you can do this.

And to the rest of you, let me be dead clear:
I don't know Danny very well at all, and I don't even know all the stuff he did, or supposedly did. I'm not going to pretend that I know the guy better than the rest of you. I walked in here ready to argue because I saw someone being kicked when they're down, and have strong reason to believe that if Danny really does want to be done with the community, he is changing his tune somewhat and wants to try and get better somehow. But hey, tell you what. If someone does grant his request, but he waltzes back in here in a couple of months with a new account and more issues to inflict on the community, we'll deal with that. I'm not at all saying he's without fault, and I'm not saying everyone deserves an unlimited supply of patience. Everyone's got their tip-over point, after all. But if nothing else, just don't contribute to the problem. If you don't want to help solve it, that's cool, but don't make it any worse, all right?

Oh, right, the privilege thing. Because I don't know you all particularly well, I can't safely assume that you do not have the experiences I have. I also know you all have many, many experiences I don't. And hey, there are people out there who have been where Danny is and still think it's cool to do what's been done here. So let me make it clear. I'm not trying to stomp out your own experiences or to tell you that your experience isn't valid. At worst, I am trying to tell you that if you have been where Danny is, go back and think on how it would've felt to have people talking vague disbelief tricked out as sympathy. Wouldn't it have hurt? Wouldn't it have made you feel about two inches tall? I know that's how it would have made me feel...mostly because I'm a human being who really doesn't like disappointing people, or failure, or the realization that I screwed up again. I'd bet most people don't like that. Shame, guilt and self-loathing are pretty tough to deal with. If you don't have those issues, congratulations; I envy you. But this is why I keep coming back to "if". I'm saying it's one of two things. Either you lack the experience, or you possess the experience and just don't care about the results of your words.

Hopefully that clears a few things up.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-04-16 18:14:30

Okay, time to argue this, once again I guess.

Jayde wrote:

Okay, some more fun facts and perspective for you two.

1. Ironcross, you're sort of reminding me of a bull who charges every time he perceives movement. For you, that movement comes in the form of the word "privilege". I spoke it, you dropped everything and chased it, and you totally missed the point. In common parlance this is called a feint. It says far more about you than me, and until or unless you actually attempt to address the points I've made, I feel pretty safe in dismissing you.
"2. TheDwarfer, you're doing a really excellent job of undermining your own supposed point of view. Let me explain. On one hand, you claim you have some sympathy and hope the guy gets headed in the right direction, and want to give at least a little more benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, you also felt it necessary, even given past experiences, to vent your sorta-kinda disbelief. You began the influx of doubt in this topic...an influx, I might add, which serves virtually no purpose. One day, when you encounter someone in your life with an addiction they can't kick, a neurosis they've struggled with, or some other recurring problem they are struggling with, I dare you to be this cavalier face to face with them. Listen to their voice crack. If you have a little sight or have the freedom to touch them, lay a hand on their shoulders and feel them wilt. Or, conversely, watch for the righteous anger. It'll probably have a lot of bitterness in it. What I'm trying to say is that you're doing virtually no good and plenty of harm. Your stated opinion does Danny no good, because you're foolish if you think he doesn't know where he is right now, and serves mainly to satisfy your own desire to slam someone. In this regard, and this alone, I share your pain, sir, because I'm doing precisely the same thing. The only difference is that I'm right and you aren't. I'm calling you out because your behaviour does not appear to be the result of mental illness or addiction or any other such thing. Put bluntly: you don't have any reason or excuse to justify this sort of campaign, so I'm calling you out. Now, if you do, in fact, have an underlying issue (or issues) which suggest that I am being too hard on you, or otherwise treating you unfairly, I urge you to bring them forward. Otherwise, let the guy leave. You don't have to believe his apology. No one's going to ask you to do that. But if you really aren't convinced, why the need to trumpet that fact?"
Okay. First of all? This part of the post is both presumptuous and borderline personally attacking. Addiction? Yeah. I'm separated from my dad because of that. I've distanced or had to lose other family members because of that. Danny was my best friend for 4 years, and the friendship broke off because of that. So no, you're not right, and you're only being presumptuous and throwing baseless claims that you clearly don't know about me, because I've just flat out proven you wrong. I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't know Danny. I would have no stake in the matter if this were just his games. So I'm going to have to dismiss this point entirely based on the contingency that it rests on completely baseless assumptions on the character and experiences of someone you don't know, while trying to place your points at a higher moral and factual standpoint (right, and you aren't). Wow. Secondly, assuming I have an underlying issue. This is definitely personally attacking more than or at least as much as anything else. It's just another example of grasping at straws to try and justify why someone's experiences and or thought processes work differently than you. And as for his apology and letting him leave? I'm doing that. It's all good. I stated my piece in post 6, but it got argued, so I came and defended it. Then it got argued again. Then I defended it again. That's generally how arguments work. You can believe I'm wrong all you like, but in the end of the day it's really just still your opinion, and I'm sorry if you feel like someone has to be priveledged in order to expect someone who they have known to have been doing next to nothing to fix their situation for 8 years to at least make an attempt.
  My desire to slam someone. I again repeat that I am simply refuting attacks on my argument, and unfortunately this argument is regarding the subject at hand (this individual, and his apology). You seem to be reflecting your desire to slam people which you stated you just had, perhaps because my remarks angered you or for other reason I don't know, back on me. I can't refute someone's self reflection and how they manage it.
  Now let's address the doubt. I am not in fact underlying my own point, but making points based on the now, the past (which does matter quite significantly), and the future. Now, I do not believe what he is saying, because I have no reason to. This is not in bad faith (something which again was a presumption stated as fact), but in a lack of assured optomism. In the distant future however? I expressed that I have room to change that opinion. I genuinely hope he does get up and go the right direction, and I'll be willing to accept him doing that once or if I know that he has. I doubt him now, but I'm leaving benefit of the doubt for his future self, because I do believe people can change. I do believe that my dad will be back to normal and I ache for that every day and the immense struggle for him. I've worried and cried over him, feeling like he was trapped and he'd never be able to feel better again because he keeps hurting and needing and hurting and needing. So back to my original point, I am politely asking that you no longer assume that I am priviledged in terms of dealing with addiction, and that I have not done so before. God, I wish I hadn't.
"3. Every argument I have made in this thread falls back on bad faith. If you can't figure that out, try a reread or three for clarification. I stand by what I said before though. If we haven't experienced a thing, then we don't have the means to actively judge it. I'm not addicted to any narcotics, so I don't know how hard it is to get off of them. Ditto alcohol. I don't have OCD, and I'm not a hoarder. I don't compulsively steal, or smoke cigarettes, or self-harm, or any such thing. I have other issues I don't really need to illustrate here, however, so I know in vague strokes how it feels to want to be better and to lack the self-confidence to fix things...to say more than once that you're going to fix something, to mean it in your bones, and to not know how, or to know exactly how and to fail anyway. If this sort of thing is outside your own lived experience, then you have the privilege of not knowing how it feels...just as some of you may identify with issues I myself do not possess. I'd never presume to tell you that if you tried hard enough, you could conquer your demons. I'd support you, sure, but talking about how your previous failures must imply that you're not trying hard enough, or that your words don't really bear any weight anymore...no, I'd never do that. I know better, because my experience doesn't grant me the right to say that. The fact that you believe otherwise is an extremely colourful example of privilege. Scream if you like, but the shoe fits, so start walking. Odds are, you've got about a mile left to go, and it's all uphill from here. But I know you can do it."
I feel like I accidentally addressed this one in point 2's section, so I won't repeat.

Now, I will do what you have asked in point 2, and let the matter drop. I believe I have spoken my piece, and my opinion is and will remain the same. I have dealt with addiction, that doesn't change it. I know impulsive people and have impulses myself, still doesn't change it. The point is, Danny has never done in the years I've known him, albeit people will try and argue that I don't know him which is quite laughable in itself, anything to fix his situation. He gave up on his games, he gave up on his friendships, he gave up on independence training, he gave up on school, he gave up on social interactions, and now all he really has is this faint hope that he will magically get all that back while claiming that he's not fit for the responsible lifestyle, and some distant crush on this random girl he knew in middle school and doesn't even know if she still is alive today. It's a sad, abysmal lifestyle, and no amount of doing what he does every other day and hammering things out on a keyboard that go nowhere will change my opinion on that. You can argue that my opinion does Danny no good, but yours, Ethins, Jace, Musicalmen, none of those do those of us any good who see the situation for what it is and hold fast to our knowledge and opinions of it. Since this argument is just an argument of opinion, it is really going to go nowhere from here. I therefore have no more to say on the matter.
  I will say this. To you guys who want the mods to ban me because you don't like what I'm saying? Go cry in your pillow, that may make you feel better. You don't have the position, power, or authority to silence opinions, and thank God for that. Hey, on the bright side, I might get a warning for making fun of you in this paragraph. Would that allow you to smile just long enough to say high to that stranger on the street, before you return to crying about the fact that not everyone agrees with and expresses in similar ways as you?
Cheers!

Twitter: stevo399
Website: stevend.net
Have a nice day!

2019-04-16 19:13:05

@33 I don't even know what you're talking about. As if you offer proof most of the time? But yeah you're right in the fact I never should have said anything in this topic because I don't really have a vested interest. In my mind though, I wasn't attempting to kick Danny. I get you want to defend your friend, I would too. But are you really not just being an enabler for his behavior? You need friends in your life who will kick your ass into gear as well as support you. But if you go at this like Danny does no wrong, when he clearly is doing wrong, then you're enabling his bad behavior.

OK let's talk about addiction. I can't say I personally have addiction experience, unless you count drinking too much soda. I do sort of have a family, at least an extended family who deals with alcoholism. My grandpa drank all his life, eventually, it caused his diabetes, and at 75, he had a quadroople bypass performed, which he survived only to die a week later. My 2nd cousin ended up burning his entire arm in an accident related to him being drunk at the time, and I actually don't know the entire story about that, but he sure has the deformities to prove it. My uncle has been into dope his entire life, I don't even know what all he does, weed, coke, and alcohol. If he does other stuff, I never bothered to find out. It ruined his marriage, he missed his son's graduation, and his daughter hates him. I don't even think he gets to see his grand kids because she refuses to talk to him. It caused him to have a heart attack a few years ago, he got clean after that, funny how the heart trouble stopped then. But now, while he hasn't had another heart attack, the doctors say he's having heart issues again. He lost his house when his girlfriend left him, he then lived in some house a friend or something let him stay in, but he actually got screwed regarding the property taxes (something that wasn't his fault), so he couldn't afford to stay. His mother, my grandma bought him a freaking house for a grand total of $1200, yes I typed it correctly. It was at an auction, and the town it is in is a very small one up in the mountains where my family comes from. Now, if he can keep this one, we'll see. My well, I don't even know, my grandma's brother's son, is on the streets, he's into all sorts of drugs, and been in and out of various mental health hospitals over the years. I think he's a schizophrenic or something, I honestly never see him, and enver talk to him, so I don't know all the story behind that. I do know that he generally does go off his medicine all the time, and when people do try to help him, he usually screws it up and they want him gone.

So, while me, my brother, my parents, my grandparents, and most of my family on both sides are clean, there are some addicts in the family. What does that mean in this context? I'm not really sure, it's not as if I'm trying to say, actually, you know what, I don't even remember what I said in my first post of this thread, that's how much I put into it, so yeah.

I'm the captain of this ship,
don't worry about the little clicks,
Everything is working fine,
nevermind that audible whine.

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2019-04-16 19:28:21 (edited by Ethin 2019-04-16 19:34:22)

I'm going to do my best to drop out of this since The Dwarfer believes he knows Danny (when most of that was trolling and generally being a dick to him, which *does not* constitute knowing someone) and this entire argument will just keep going in circles. Clearly, its a no-win situation for both sides, because it is quite literally impossible for us to know what will happen in the future.
@The Dwarfer, you braught up Danny's school situation. He tried, multiple times, to get back into school. And every single damn time, the education system failed him, and every time (pretty much) it had nothing to do with his behavior; he was the kid who was different, and the education system he was placed in didn't like people who were different, and so he was "punished" for being different. It didn't help that his credits for his 7th year didn't transfer after he was done, and they refused to transfer when he asked, and so continuing the education process *wasn't possible*. Its not like he tried once and just gave up on that. Come on, be realistic. He gave up on his games because of difficulties in his own life. Considering the shit he was doing to himself, I can't exactly blame him for that. He's not required to maintain his games constantly for everyone's enjoyment, now is he? He's the developer, he can do whatever he likes.
And a little tip... I'd recommend removing the girlfriend info from your post. Just sayin'.
@39, I certainly would give him kicks in the ass to get things done. In fact I did that more than once. But there is a difference between giving him a kick in the ass to *do it* and actually bashing and attacking him, which has pretty much happened in post six and beyond.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-04-16 20:15:03

Since you mentioned my name in your last post, Dwarfer. I won't reveal what I've been told, because it's not my place, and to my way of thinking throwing a lot of info about Danny's life out in the open is in poor form.....

Let's say you were wanting to leave, and I came along and said oh Dwarfer did this, this this this this and this, after you'd asked the mods to effectively deactivate your account. You wouldn't be too happy if you found out a lot of stuff you wanted to keep private was suddenly out in the open, but, c'mon, the blindie handbook did address that point very, very nicely that all information is fair game, yet you are revealing stuff....as of writing this, that I am 99% sure Danny wants to keep private. Again, put yourself in his shoes.

Oh, I'm sorry, Dwarfer, you're stranged from your father due to addiction? Okay, that's sad but you're not the only person in the whole world going through that, and there's quite literally millions of people going through the exact same situation as you. Point is. Everyone copes differently. If your way of coping is to bash somebody from your first post in a thread and then argue with somebody who makes sound, logical points, then that's your coping mechanism. it's just not one that'll win you many debates. Nor is revealing personal information about people, either. How would you like it if I listed off things about you that you'd like to keep private or to yourself, only to have somebody who clamed to be your 'best friend' spill it on a forum?

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2019-04-16 20:50:49

TheDwarfer, Ironcross, thank you for sharing your experiences.

Ironcross, since you're bowing out, I will leave you be. We are not going to see eye to eye on this, and your vested interest is so small that you're not sure where you're even going with it now. I'm very sorry about all the stuff you and your family have gone through, though, because for everything I might say about people's struggles not always being their fault or whatnot, it can still be utterly ruinous to others. I feel that.

TheDwarfer, I feel I'm stopping well short of personally attacking you. I'm shredding your words, not your person. I really don't have a quarrel with you as an individual and definitely do not want to see you punished or run off for any of this. I really don't like what you're doing, but that's as far as it goes.

When someone I know is going through some sort of crisis, whether it's very new or whether it's something they've struggled with for years, if I face it head-on, my first question is almost always, "Can I help?", and if they say yes, or if they give me an indication that they will at least be open-minded, if I try, my next question is "How can I help?" This is because I believe, to the very core of my being, that the best thing to do is to find a need and fill it. If someone says the best thing I can do for them is to listen to them cry, I'll do it. If they say they want me to help them make a psychiatric appointment, I'll do it. If they want to be distracted in a non-destructive way...well, you get the picture. I do it, because I believe that a person has to come to whatever healing they find on their own.
If long periods of time go by and the person doesn't heal, I come to one of two conclusions. And here, I think, is where we differ. One conclusion, and usually the first one I jump to, is that the person is not equipped to heal. Something is missing, something is blocked, something is misfiring. Eliminate that, and improvement becomes possible. Ignore it, and all attempts will fail, fizzle or straight-up collapse. The other conclusion is that the person is dead set against healing for some reason, and this usually feeds back into conclusion #1, because most people, all things considered equal, don't want to just die or give up. If they're there, it's because things and situations and people put them there, and you have to expose the underlying issue before any progress will be made.

Let's take Danny apart for a moment.
You say he's not actually making any effort to change, that his apology is probably a cry for attention or, at best, the ineffectual flailing of someone who says the right things but has no real drive behind the desire to change.
Okay, let's work with that. So the next question is: why?
Why is he there? What has made it so that he feels unable to change? What has made it so that he feels defeated, and as if he must try and protect us from his bad behaviour? What makes him seek attention? What makes him say he wants to do better, while simultaneously admitting he doesn't know if he can?

I'll tell you. It's actually pretty simple when you boil it down.
You, and other friends he's got, have not, as yet, been able to alleviate whatever is wrong with him. Maybe it's psychiatric. Maybe it's environmental. Maybe it's chemical. Whatever it is, you haven't fixed it. So expecting him to go forward as if his desire to have it fixed means it's a done deal? That's just silly. The truth is, not a single one of us knows exactly what is wrong here. That probably includes Danny himself. This means that none of us, self included, are in a position to render judgments.

If you don't want to be a part of making Danny better, then don't be. No one's got a gun to your head. I, for instance, don't know the dude. I don't plan to start trying to get in touch with him and spending five hours a day on the phone as his de facto therapist. But I'm also not going to waste a single second contributing to his misery. I'm not going to talk about how he's broken his word, or how he's failed in the past, because it doesn't matter. Whether or not I believe his resolve right now is irrelevant. And so is your own disbelief. Totally irrelevant. If you want Danny to be better, actively I mean, then minimize your negative impact. If you don't give a rip, then I still think it is incumbent upon you to minimize your negative impact.

As a last thought, I just want to point out that the world is full of people who think their intervention is worthwhile simply because they're bothering in the first place. Most of them are wrong. They speak out of a desire to say "There. I did something" over a desire to actually fix what's wrong. And even with a true desire to fix what may be broken, many people assume that their way is best without listening to what the situation tells them. I don't even know Danny, and I can already tell you with a fair degree of certainty that kicking his ass, or expressing disbelief, will not help him, and may harm him. Conversely, I know that trying to appeal to your sense of both logic and emotion may cause you to re-examine your actions, which is why I attempted what I did. That said, this is where I take my own advice and bow out. Mayve I've done you nothing except fire you up and make you upset. If so, I apologize, because I've obviously failed you there.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-04-16 21:02:29 (edited by Zarvox 2019-04-16 21:06:48)

Changing something as hard as an addiction or lifestyle is very very difficult, especially if you never asked to have it. I think change is possible, but I have no clue how to get there. Accepting blindness? Fixing this addiction I have? I have no clue how I can change it. But I know it is possible. I have tried to break the addiction cycle many times, sometimes more successful than others. You can think of it 2 ways. First way, every time you fail it damages your credibility and weakens your ability to do better next time. That makes sense, because you are use to getting knocked down, so your motivation decreases. But, way 2, each time you try, you are working the muscle of strength. You know how when you stretch for 10 seconds you can reach a certain distance to your toes, but the next time you do it, you can reach a little further? That's what I am talking about. Now for that to happen, it requires that muscle to be used often. You can work at it, but then neglect it and then it goes back down. But just like you get sore after workout and stretching becomes exhausting and painful, so does fighting the addiction. You break the cycle, then you rest for a little, then you try to break again. But you are still sore from putting all of that energy into the last cycle break, so this one isn't as well performed. And that's the problem I have. Is getting sore after a workout and not being able to push through a second one to continue strengthening that muscle. As for accepting blindness? It's been 10 years, I'm hoping one day in my 20s or something I magically accept it, because that is a huge huge issue I have trouble understanding that I can change.

Roses are red,
Violets are yellow;
You challenge me to change my signature,
I say oh hell no.

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2019-04-16 22:42:49

The Dwarfer wrote:

You can argue that my opinion does Danny no good, but yours, Ethins, Jace, Musicalmen, none of those do those of us any good who see the situation for what it is and hold fast to our knowledge and opinions of it.

All I was trying to say was that Danny's past doesn't matter now, not in the context of this forum anyway, because he just wants to leave. He knows how much his reputation has tanked, and how little forgiveness he expects to receive. And in response to that, we have to pick apart his intentions. I don't see the point because he'll soon be gone and will never see your last criticisms.

Now if Danny had no interest in leaving but simply left his apology at "I really want to do better," Then I could understand more of the criticisms, since he could, potentially, be leaving the door open for bigger and badder things to come. We could throw things like "actions speak louder than words," and "I'll believe it when I see it," and other helpful, harsh, and perhaps snide remarks at him. But he knows that none of that will help him, and that it is a waste of our time to say those things for whatever reasons. Whether he actually means that or not, it's a good enough reason for me to respect my distance.

Perhaps some of you were, or still are, angry because he is potentially shutting you out and ignoring everything from post 1 onwards. He's running away like a coward, perhaps, so you are in a desperate mission to get through to him and help him, or expose him, or whatever you feel you must do, before it's too late. If not in this thread, then I've seen this pattern in other threads. Metaphorically speaking, a horse is beaten to death, and then trampled a few times over so that it's, what, 5 times deader. Why?

I do understand the notion that one thing leads to another, and before you know it, a debate, argument, flame war etc. is at hand that was never really intended, but just happened. I get that, I do. I am also working hard, though admittedly not successfully, at trying to figure out what started the arguments I get involved in and trying not to repeat the same mistakes. Like I said, I am not often successful, and as is often the case, I am not proud of myself for contributing to it. But my visions of throwing sticks and stones at someone as they try to run away got the better of me, and that's what I perceived here. I can't just sit and watch that happen in good conscience. But since this debate seems to have fizzled out, I will finally respect those who have let it go, and drop the matter myself.

Make more of less, that way you won't make less of more!
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