2019-03-28 14:05:12 (edited by sid512 2019-03-28 14:13:03)

Hi,
I'm writing this topic in relation to a few questions. I would also like to admit not going through all the threads/propositions raised under this part of the forum along with other threads of similar nature. As it stands, the questions may or may not have been answered but I'm putting them here nevertheless. I would also like to urge people towards further discussion and to refrain from adopting a behavior which is detrimental to the forum, as this forum still stands out as one of the best places an audiogamer has the luxury of visiting and participating in the discussions.

Jayde wrote:

Moderation:

Simter, consider this an official warning. There was a whole topic about this a couple of weeks ago, and it was discussed to death and beyond. It resulted in me essentially confronting people and asking them why the heck it was any of their business what other people used if no one was being hurt.
Rather than re-engage that discussion, I'm going to drop a warning. This, to me at least, is bordering on personal attack, not just toward myself but toward others as well. You think you have the right to determine what programs we ought to use, and you don't. Speaking personally, this is getting very tiresome. This isn't the first time it's happened, nor the first time it's been protested. And now that there are multiple other users who are just as annoyed as me, it's warning time.

And I'm locking this thread. We do not need this discussion right now.

Now, the questions sent as a report are:

I would like to know from the moderators under which particular community rules, regulations or implied guidelines the user had been issued a warning and the thread permanently closed?
do each moderator represent himself/herself while declaring moderations?
do the actions of a single moderator indicate an absence of representation among the moderation team as evident from "I", "i'm", or "me", rather than "we", or "us", or "'ed"?
had an ordinary user posted a general thread regarding the subject, is it highly likely the thread would be locked out as well, on the pretext of the matter being discussed earlier?

I hope that the above questions are answered without any hostility and the thread doesn't get locked only after a handful of replies. big_smile

Honestly, that particular thread got me curious enough, hence this
post; I'm not precisely familiar with all the moderators/users who might have been involved. tongue

Regards.

He picked up the wrench and broke the guy’s wrist with it, one, and then the other wrist, two, and turned back and did the same to the guy who had held the hammer, three, four. The two men were somebody’s weapons, consciously deployed, and no soldier left an enemy’s abandoned ordnance on the field in working order.

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2019-03-28 16:30:27

Yeah I thought that was a bit trigger happy myself.

I'm the captain of this ship,
don't worry about the little clicks,
Everything is working fine,
nevermind that audible whine.

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2019-03-28 16:38:40

I understand generally where jade was coming from, but still! There was no heat in that discussion at all.

Scientists say the world is growing constantly,
But this isn't possible, because if the world were growing then it would have to have an end but it can't end because if it ended there would be nothing and nothing isn't anything because something is not nothing and aaaaarg!

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2019-03-28 16:38:53

I understand generally where jade was coming from, but still! There was no heat in that discussion at all.

Scientists say the world is growing constantly,
But this isn't possible, because if the world were growing then it would have to have an end but it can't end because if it ended there would be nothing and nothing isn't anything because something is not nothing and aaaaarg!

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2019-03-28 16:51:10

I rarely comment on stuff like this (last time I did it was sometime before christmas) but me myself, for once also thought it was a bit hasty to just close a topic like that (since no personal attacks were made toward a single indiviual).
I personally think (and had the assumption) that the forum (and the topics on it) worked on a "don't like, don't reply" manor, where if you don't like a discussion in a specific thread, simply don't repply to it and let that be that.

I really hope the moderators reply to this thread with an explanation of why and such and that they don't just pretend that it never happened.

I'm me. Just me. No one else. Only meeee!

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2019-03-28 17:28:54

I'm going to weigh in as a past mod, fully aware that things have changed somewhat since my stepping down, but also, because I want you all to understand something really important.  If you still don't get it after I present the following points, I'll spell it out super clearly at the end of this post.
Point 1.  Every moderator is different; we are all hardly clones of each other, nor have we ever been.
Point 2.  With those differences come differences of opinion, temperament, ideals, strengths and weaknesses, levels of expertise, perception, etc.
Point 3.  No matter how clearly the rules are spelled out, our first goal has always been to ensure as nice and friendly a place as it is possible to secure given that none of the users under our care are perfect, anymore than we are.
In the event that you don't get it after reading all of the above, essentially what I'm saying is the following.  WE are all, moderators included, as human as humanity makes us.  When religion topics sprung up under my watch, I did my absolute best not to favor Christians, no matter how hard it may have been given my own close tie to Christendom and more importantly, to Christ.  It angered some Christians, at least one of which decided to confront me on several counts.  On the other side of the coin, there was one instance that I'm aware of in which, while I did my best to remain as unbiased as possible I was eventually taken to task by a user who reported me to the rest of the panel, after which I came forward and did my best to apologize and ask for forgiveness on any count of wrongdoing on my end.
How would Jayde have handled those topics if he had been mod a year or two ago?  I dunno.  Liam?  Again, I dunno.  Anyone else who's new?  I really, really don't know.  I couldn't begin to tell you, thus it really isn't my place to try and tell you.
Here's what I do know; unless things have changed super drastically since I left the panel, I know that sometimes, as much as we may not like it, we have to make decisions based on how we personally feel about particulars.  A rule may not precisely be broken, but if we sense that there is an individual who is attempting to see how much they can bend it we're going to react.  If the former weren't true and there was no reaction when it might or might not be perceived that rules are being bent, forumites would be shouting for mod heads on silver platters for turning the other way.  Truly, it is a hard road on which to balance and walk on at the same time, but someone has to do it if you want a friendly forum.
I've never, ever, ever ever ever been happy about giving a moderation warning, let alone a ban.  There are power hungry crazies out there who probably love that sort of control trip or what have you... Get off on it, even.  I"m not one of them.  I don't generally stick my nose in many controversial topics as of late, so I can't say what things are like now, but reading the full context in this case, I gather that Simter voiced an unpoppular opinion.  IN and of itself that isn't an issue.  The problem lies in the wording.
And I quote, "Hi. This is my last try to get adleast one part of the community back to right. Why are so many people of you still using skype 7 and giving out copies of it? I fucking hate it. The only thing we get out of it are forks and connectivity problems, anoying notifications for any single little event what seriusly no one needs, a crappy peace of shit called skype api. While there is a great version with no adds, much easyer to use, and the best is no more /fork spam. Because it just no longer exists. So, people, please stop giving out copies of skype 7, because then you may be the next responsible for the next fork."
The beginning in particular is most telling: stop using an old version of a piece of software I hate and I find stupid.  If that's not enough, this isn't the first topic on the forum to come up where this particular subject was discussed with the same opinion to no avail and, the general consensus was, to put it bluntly, mind your own freaking business!
It's always important to look at the big picture as a whole.  Supposing someone came out here and started spreading misinformation about a program being entirely unsecure but then failed to disclose any reason as to why, or worse, said that it was because of something that is common sense stuff you really shouldn't be doing, I would be twice as offended if a moderator didn't do a bit of research, then take a stand on the matter and simply say that enough's enough!
Example: Why are you using windows!  You should use OSX!  You have less viruses!  You have integration with iOS stuff right off the bat!  It's stupid to use windows OS's because when you use OSX you just have a system that works and you don't have to pay anythingn extra to update and upgrade it!
It's easy to abuse any system; in this case, the system is called free speech.  With liberty comes responsibility, and those who fail to exercise it diligently will eventually find that they're not going to be looked at or treated nicely.  Again, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't disagree, that you shouldn't voice your opinions, but you should know how to conduct yourself on a forum that is doing its best to be friendly.  There's a difference between free speech and freedom to say the first thing that comes to your head.  If Jade were to come along right now and look at my post and hand me a moderation warning, my first reaction might be something along the lines of, "Piss off ya idiotic retarded bag of... I'm sure you get the point.  Why?  Because no one takes kindly to a moderation warning, especially if, in the heat of the moment you find yourself blazing hot.
So the question concerning above reaction, given I have free speech, should I be allowed to write that message on a forum who's aim is friendly discussion?  Absolutely not... There's nothing friendly about it.  Sadly, while I'm doing my best to voice everything in this post as kindly as I can, I am fully aware that there may be at least one person, possibly even a mod, who will find it condescending.  Once I hit submit, I'm doing so with the full realization that I may receive a warning and will evaluate so that in future, I do not repeat the same offense whatsoever.

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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2019-03-28 18:41:43

Yeah, they shouldn't let their personal preferences to decide but that message you quoted, simply states that he locked the topic because if he doesn't like the new version, then do not ever try to hurt him, but he can freely do that when he mentions the new one is shit.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-28 18:46:56

All right Nocturnus, i can understand your points clearly. But this means you did your job well, you never thought if you don't like something then you can punish a whole community if they are not at the same wavelength with you. But some of them just don't understand that, or they may do, but don't wanna judge like that. And i don't want to attack the moderators personally, because they don't deserve that, but it's like in a job, there are employees who do their task perfectly, and there are ones who have their positions but a simple position means nothing, people will respect the one above them if the ones do the job as requested.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-28 19:07:24

I feel it will be best for Jayde to reply to this one as well, however I will weigh in with a small thought. I agree with Nocturnus's points, we all moderate in slightly different ways.

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2019-03-28 19:08:36

Regardless how you spin it, there are moderation decisions that will clearly go down as the greatest screwups of all time, while some will seem like idiocies initially but prove to be anything but later on.  You need to let time pass in order to truly find out if you're seriously in doubt.  ON the other hand, if you're just openly questioning because you can, you won't fare well.
If you asked me right now if there was any moderation decision I regret, I'd tell you that there are a few, though looking back on them I don't see that there was any alternative.  When I signed up for the position I was made aware that a great amount of trust was being placed in me to try and do what was right.  Notice I didn't say a load of trust was placed in me to absolutely do what was right, but to try and do what was right.  Had such a mantle been thrust on me I would have quit immediately, because I can't, no matter how hard I try, always do what's right.
By no means am I excusing the mods of any wrongdoing or misdeed if any occurs or should occur in future, but given the great transition that just took place I do think you need to go light on them while they feel each other out, try to get their heads together on all these new rules they've issued, get in touch with each other, keep in touch with each other, think things out and move forward.  It's not as easy as it sounds.  Even if they spent countless hours on skype or TT, which I am mostly sure does not happen, this would not necessarily result in overall better moderation decisions being made.  Part of the reason the team survived as long as it did and has is that there is no one central stop for us all.  We all took a break from each other, weren't in constant contact.  Had we done it the other way around I think all of us would have been burned out way long before now.
Time differences, age differences, personality differences, background and cultural differences, all of these play huuuuuuge factors in how moderation decisions take place and are handed out.  If the situation seems urgent it may be necessary to hand out the warning or the ban first and ask questions later and be held accountable for prior actions.  Thankfully, that is not always the case.  At the end of the day though, you have to either trust or distrust; take it or leave it.  If you trust, feel free to ask questions but remember they may not receive the answers you are personally looking for.  If you don't trust, I hate to put it this bluntly, but you're only left with one choice; go away!

I do not know what my future holds, but I do know who holds my future.

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2019-03-28 19:23:10

Exactly, i can agree, again. No, unfortunately this skype thing is so a huge thing for Jayde that anyone who speaks about using the new version, gets at least one moderation, or he starts arguing with the people who discuss it. Okay, i know that it's been discussed many many times, and i'm sure it'll even continue if it depends on some people, sadly, but having a different opinion doesn't mean that he needs to use this moderation thing to argue with the new version supporter. There will always be people who like older versions, there will be always people who even don't wanna change their operating system and stuff, but that doesn't mean they need to do this. As i remember, in the topic he locked, a person asked why they still use that version. Na, in that topic, he didn't tell such things as damn you stop using it because you are idiots, he said it causes harm to a few people, and it's old, nothing more. Even Jayde, and other supporters can't do anything against microsoft's decisions, and i guess when they stop supporting skype 7 forever, they won't start to complain to microsoft like ooh gosh you are so bad people that you discontinued it, oh go to hell microsoft because i liked the old version.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-28 19:48:24

When I read Jayde's post, I also thought that his decision was too hasty. The OP did not really use any terribly serious insults; sure, he was of the opinion that those who use Skype 7 are wrong, but other than that, he just insulted Skype itself. The conversation didn't look like it needed to be closed just yet.
I unfortunately didn't read the previous topics about this, so I'm not certain how heavily this has been debated, and it is possible my feelings on this would be different if I did. But I am of the opinion that it would've been better to wait a bit longer to see if the conversation could resolve on its own. Of course, there's a possibility of a more serious fight breaking out, but that can be handled when it comes. It is generally better to let people try to resolve their conflicts themselves first, especially now when everyone's watching what the mods do much more carefully.
Like I said, I don't have all the information about this, and I definitely can't know what Jayde was thinking. I'd just like to ask everyone here not to be too hasty themselves, though. It is very likely that Jayde was just trying to do his job, not just closing topics because he likes Skype 7 and it's his choice and everyone should just fucking shut about it damn it! It is hard to ever truly know that, especially over the internet, but he seems to me like a guy who's trying to do what he thinks is right, like we all are for the most part, not just being a crazy, power hungry asshole. If he is the second, he must be playing a very long game.

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2019-03-28 20:04:33

Mayana, yeah, there were arguements about it but they wouldn't have argued if he wasn't generally against everyone who prefers the new version.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

Thumbs up

2019-03-28 20:21:16

MasterOfDeath, can I get the message where he said new Skype is "shit"? You seem to have something against jayde and cannot wait to say something about it, even though he never said such things about new Skype, and that's not even the reason of that topic being closed. However, could you tell me the purpose of a topic telling me to switch to a newer version of an app with no actual advantages offered and with a similar discussion just a week ago? Am I allowed to make a topic called switch to NVDA and say how stupid Jaws is and that everybody should just get back on the right track and use NVDA? I wonder why do we have to question each decision with one topic, seems to be a weekly trend recently here. The topic was not closed because Jayde does not like Skype 8, he would have most likely done the same thing had he not used Skype at all. The topic just didn't have any purpose, and the majority was thinking this way. Who should have a right to tell others on a forum what they should and should not use? Now if he said, hey guys, it might be a good time to try Skype 8 as Microsoft improved quite a few things, then listed some improvements, and said something like, besides, Skype 7 has this fork command which some people like to abuse so it might not be a bad idea for you to start getting used to the new interface before you are forced to, then probably people would not complain and the topic would not be closed. However, the OP in that topic was not constructive at all.

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2019-03-28 20:49:59

Nidza. He never said it is shit, but he keeps saying it with less offensive words. I don't have anything against Jayde, only that he sometimes moderates with no reason, or at least a really small one. Of course you are not allowed to create a topic like that, but when in the hell did anyone say that you must switch? The person who created the topic, only stated that it has many bugs and it's even outdated. This is like the windows fight, like what to use, win7 or win10. Many people think win7 is secure, but many people say win10 is up to date and is supported. This is exactly what is happening with skype too, of course you can use skype7 but it won't be secure after a while. Of course skype 8 doesn't have new features, okay maybe one, like it displays when your partner was online the last time, but it is usable and it isn't inaccessible. Maybe people hate it, but these are usually the ones who stay at a really low level of technology and love messing around with really old things.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-28 20:57:11

Just saying, but I use Skype 8. However, you should realize Skype version usage is not the issue. How does it make sense that I just say oh it has many bugs? Is that actually constructive? Will you switch a program you use by hearing oh it has many bugs? I know I wouldn't unless I hear something that can actually convince me, and even then it is not worth a specific topic. People will switch when they want to. The point is exactly that he did not use any offensive words. You can dislike something, if you could not this would not be a forum, but how people still cannot understand what's constructive for a forum and what's not is beyond me.

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2019-03-28 21:46:54

I mean, was the topic going anywhere, no. Was it constructive in nature, no. Still, your doctor doesn't put you on blood pressure meds if they think you might have high blood pressure in the next 5 years, but it's normal now. This isn't a place where you can just swoop in and lock down topics before anything happens. You can't be proactive about your locking of topics, that's like arresting someone because you think they will do something. Let's say someone staggers out of their house and you know from your experience as a cop, that person is wasted. You see the keys in their hand, you see them walk out to their car, you see them unlock the door, get in, and all the sudden, bam, you're on them, yanking them out, throwing the cuffs on them, reading them their rights, etc. Yeah but they didn't move the car, right? What if their reason for going out there is because they had a pack of cigs out there and wanted a smoke and used the last from in the house. That's what that was, it was emotion creeping into a moderation decision. It would be different say, if the guy moved the car, even a millimeter, I would agree with arresting him.

That said, the mods can't be right 100% of the time. We need to let them get on with things without a collective swarm breathing down their necks. Do I agree with the closing of that topic? No. Did it actually do any harm? I don't see that it really did. The OP was not being constructive, was not acting good-naturedly to his fellows. etc. Also, you being on Skype 8 won't stop you from being forked, it will only stop you from forking someone while you use it. So we need to look at the scope of the issue and really only make a case of it if it seems pretty major, and it really didn't this time.

I'm the captain of this ship,
don't worry about the little clicks,
Everything is working fine,
nevermind that audible whine.

Thumbs up +1

2019-03-28 22:51:18

Okay, wading in with both feet here.

First, to Nocturnis, thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself. But here's my take on it.

A couple of weeks back, there was a fifty-odd-post thread about this very topic, with some prevailing opinions basically sounding like this: "Skype 7 is dead! I'm so glad. Everyone should switch to skype 8." I argued pretty forcefully against this, and I've made my reasons for doing so pretty clear in the past. The long and short is that nobody has a right to tell me what to use and what not to use, and that goes for everyone else in the community. What's more, if something I enjoy stops working and it wasn't actually doing any harm, taking joy in something I or others may feel stress about is just mean and spiteful and serves no purpose. Simter was a part of this discussion (which was deleted when it turned out skype 7 wasn't dead after all) and he has been part of what I'm generally going to refer to as shit-disturbing in the past several weeks. I saw his making of another pointless "switch to skype 8" topic and I clamped down on it. Everything being equal, I wouldn't have. If this weren't a hot-button topic, I wouldn't touch it. If it hadn't happened before, I wouldn't touch it. Ironcross, to use your example, in my opinion I was watching a dude who's already got at least one DUI stagger drunkenly into his car and then get into it. As a cop, seeing that, I'm probably going to head over there and ask him what's going on. Note that I didn't ban Simter. My warning is, in essence, a means of saying "stop stirring the pot", because on this topic and in this method, I feel that's exactly what he was doing, and I feel he reasonably ought to know that.

MasterOfDeath, I am getting mighty tired of the miscommunication from your quarter. Not once have I ever demonized people for using skype 8. I've never said it's trash. In fact, I have said on multiple occasions that I will never pick on anyone for choosing to use different things than me. Not ever. If Simter's topic had been "eat peanut butter cookies; chocolate cookies suck", do you really think I'd have locked it? No. The issue is a big-picture thing. It's not because it's skype 7 vs. skype 8, and I absolutely can handle differing opinions, thanks kindly.

To that end, I recognize that some of you think I was too hasty there. I'll field that, and I hear where you're coming from. I disagree, but I also respect your opinions too. Please let me assure you that I do not intend to make a habit of doing so, but given the miniature firestorm on this topic already, as well as the culprits, as well as the tone of the original post, I squelched it. Harsh? Yes, a little bit. Undeserved? I...don't think so, not really. Let me be clear. You can disagree with me as often, as thoroughly and as loudly as you want. Look at Ironcross as an example. His right-ish opinions make me want to bite things. Have I ever locked a topic about that? Have I ever issued him a warning for those views, or suggested that mods would get involved if he didn't stop talking? Not once, even though on an emotional level some of those opinions make me very upset. This has nothing to do with my personal feelings, in other words, and everything to do with how the subject was phrased, what was being said and how it impacts the community at large. Please remember the bit where many other ueers in that topic alone were feeling nettled enough to reply to it. I saw that whole picture and made a decision.

Fun fact: if Simter, or anyone else, had been doing the same thing about a different product, or even telling people in skype 8 to switch back to 7, I'd have reacted the same way. Just have a chew on that for awhile.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-03-28 23:00:13 (edited by Ethin 2019-03-28 23:06:57)

I have to agree with 17 here. While the topic was no constructive, the topic also meant no harm whatsoever. Closing topics because they aren't constructive is censorship at a very small level because everyone has a different definition of what a constructive topic is, and by closing a topic "because its not constructive" you are effectively saying "I'm closing this topic because it doesn't fit my definition of what I consider constructive". If this were a forum specifically for, say, an international journal or other kind of professional publication, or some other professional, intelligent community, then I would fully understand closing that topic in that instance; such a topic would not belong in such an environment. But this forum is not such an environment, and hence closing a topic without actual evidence to suggest that closing it is necessary ("probable cause") is unjust. I submit that the warning be retracted, as well; the warning was far too heavy-handed and was (in my opinion at least) hypocritical. I use the word "hypocritical" in this particular context because that decision, to my understanding of the rules at least, was breaking the very rules that the moderators want to uphold.
Edit: after reading Jades post (18), I still stand by my submission that the warning be retracted, or reduced o a caution, since it was (as I said) doing no harm existing there at that particular time.
@Master of Death, I cannot understand what your getting at. Jade is right that he never once demonized anything related to the subject matter; it seems like you though are attempting to demonize (if not outright ruin) Jade. I have nothing to tell you other than to watch it; you are approaching what I would consider character assassination, slander, and/or defamation. and I have no doubt Jade already considers it as one of those three.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-29 00:32:21

Heads-up: I don't, but at the same time, it's also pretty annoying to continuously deal with, especially given that I'm innocent on that particular front.

@Ethin, the issue isn't whether or not something is actively constructive. It is whether or not something is actively -destructive. Simter wasn't just talking about how he hates a particular part of skype 7, or how he loves skype 8. He was attempting to essentially start another argument/another dumpster fire. Given that he was part of the previous attempt, given his prior stance on the matter, and given that this conversation was not sparked in good faith, I stopped it. And given that Simter has done this before and generally seems to like to stir stuff up, I thought it was time to step in and say/do something.
Had someone done it differently, I'd maybe have let it go. Had Simter have done it differently himself, same deal. But just go reread exactly what was said by him in particular, and look at the annoyance it generated from folks other than me. That, in fact, was the straw.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-03-29 09:05:23

This is so childish, guys. Oh i don't like something, let's lock it and do not ever give a chance to discuss the thing, or do not ever let the two groups convince eachother. This smells like real life, when there are two parties and the stronger one, who gained the right powers for it, try to block the other's opinion as much as they can. I had a teacher, who always said, if you cannot argue without showing your force and that you have power, then your reasons won't be clear as well. Arguing is okay until you do it calmly, in a normal tone and style, so the other can react the same way. But unfortunately, you aren't doing that. You are just telling offensive sentences, words that are hanging in the air, and nothing else. That's why this topic gets highly overdiscussed, because each group wants to represent their opinions, and the ones who you think hasn't the rights for it, get harmed and hurt.
This is only an opinion, nothing more.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-29 14:45:13

And that's where you're dead wrong. You are apparently failing to appreciate the  nuances of argument, and of opinion vs. attack.

I have argued literally hundreds of times on this forum without resort to any sort of force, whether I had access to that force or not. I rarely engage in personal attacks (I'm certain I have from time to time, but I try extremely hard not to, since it's a bad idea, and I should try to keep my emotions in check wherever I can). I've won many of those arguments, I've lost a few, and I've walked away from virtually all of them without topics having been locked, either by myself or by other members of the staff team. This should demonstrate that I am not guilty of what you're accusing me of.

You are, in point of fact, blowing an action out of shape. You continue to mischaracterize what I do, and I'm starting to wonder if it's deliberate smear tactics or a straight-up lack of comprehension on your part. I hate to say it straight out like that, but I'm left with less and less recourse. Over and over again I have said that Simter's disagreement with me was not the reason for my locking his thread. Over and over I have explained that I saw potential harm because this was something of a hot-button topic and it looked like another firestorm was going to come up. I made this distinction based on who was talking (Simter), how he was talking (aggressively) and what he was saying (basically, another round of "we shouldn't have skype 7 anymore because forks"). If this had been the first time ever that this particular opinion had been addressed, or if it had been done differently, I wouldn't have batted an eye, so to speak. But that's not the case. I urge you to take a big picture approach when considering why I did what I did. You seem to be stuck on "Jayde is misusing power", and I'm not. In fact, this is precisely the sort of thing we're here for, to deal with straight-up breach of rules and to squash dissent if it becomes too toxic.

In general, difference of opinion can and should be tolerated. Of course it should. But this wasn't going anywhere good. You say that we should be able to argue without using force. Well, should we also be able to argue without resorting to trash-talking? Remember, as well, that other users before this expressed straight-up pleasure that skype 7 was apparently discontinued. If that's not needless confrontation, I don't know what is.

How would you feel, for instance, if I started a topic in Off-topic Discussion which went like this. (Full disclosure, I do not actually feel this way, and this example is for illustrative purposes only):
Title: Oh man, that Mason guy
Message: You know what? I just gotta get this off my chest. Mason pisses me off. He strikes me as an immature, whiny, entitled kid who can't code and do PR at the same time. Okay fine, maybe he can code things and they don't explode, so that's cool, but I mean, the guy's PR is a nightmare. Someone ought to teach him how to respect his players or he's going to lose them. I'm just sick of the guy, and I wish he'd be gone. When he says he's closing his doors for the last time - really the last time, I mean, none of this back-and-forth crap - I will cheer. Because it's long overdue, I think. Let's just...I dunno, let him choke on his mistakes. Because I will never ever buy anything he makes and I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Now, if I went and posted that, right now, wouldn't you want a mod to come in, close the topic before it started fires, and give me a warning? I know I would. Because even if I have a right to feel that way, and even if I have a right to say that to certain people if it's really how I feel...well, to just slap it on the community results in potential harm. Mason may be upset. Mason supporters may be upset. And at this point, the issues around Mason are well-known. What good is there in poking a sleeping bear, especially if I happened to already have a history of poking sleeping bears? I don't but Simter sort of does. This is where I go back and point at the bit where I said he knew what he was doing. This wasn't some newbie walking in and making another statement with little or no knowledge of what came before.

So no, MasterOfDeath. You're missing the point entirely. I urge you to come back and argue points rather than attempt to attack my character without grounds. Failing that, I'd rather you stop and think what you're saying before you say it, since this is not the first time that you have attempted to take shots at me. You will note that I am not enacting any sort of moderator interference against you on this point, even though I find your attacks unjust and a little upsetting. I will not speak to what others might do, but I hope it is somewhat proving my point when, instead of issuing you a warning or trying to silence you, I am, in fact, trying to debate you as civilly as I know how.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2019-03-29 15:52:08

Jayde. Again you said what i meant, "it just looked like it'll cause harm."
Did it cause harm? No. It just looked like that. And the Mason thing is completely different. Of course i would want a mod to come in and lock the topic, but since it would be about a famous drama creator, i also would look at the point like nobody did anything against it, still, even if the whole forum is making a drama about the things that happened recently.
And what, you didn't agree with Simter, you stated the opposite, so that also means that you encourage people to agree with you. You are doing the same like Simter, but not that offensively. So you literally moderate him for the thing that you are doing as well. How would we behave good and listen to moderations, when you are just doing the same that they do, and after all you think they were wrong.
I respect everyone who has more power than me, in real life too, sometimes maybe more than it would be expected, because sometimes i'm just afraid to talk. But when i have an opinion, i think i have the rights to tell it, and all in all, we are both people, and should be treated the same way. Imagine if for example a leader of a country would listen to only his own mind and maybe to his people, and not the society and the community. That would lead to a complete mess.
So, the whole thing is not against you, Jayde, if someone else did the same i wouldn't have agreed, too. But i wouldn't allow myself to let my emotions guide me if i were a moderator. Okay, it's easy to say it now, and maybe i would behave the same, i don't know. But i guess if the topic, i mean, that you locked, were next to your statements, you wouldn't have locked it. Sadly this skype thing is a really stupid topic because it always has and will have two sides. But if someone says something that you don't agree with, it doesn't mean that it'll start a war again. It will, for sure, if you lock it with no reason and then people start to complain. But until you wrote that quite dump comment about the thing and locked it, nobody argued. They shared their opinions, and nothing much. In that old topic, unfortunately you were the one who told your opinion quite weirdly, because i guess we weren't this kind of aggressive about which version to use. But this is like a comedy. If you wanna use that old thing, do it, but don't piss off people who have a different opinion. You also said that you will use the thing that you want and nobody will tell you when to switch. And what? It was a topic for people to change opinions, not for conservative ones who will tell their opinions after every single comment, just to state they are right. Maybe you are right, i don't doubt that. But there is a way to tell your opinion once for all, like others did. I guess after your words, nobody told you like heeey switch, switch, it's the best, switch, you are stupid because you are using it, no, nobody did that. In the topic you always refer to, he asked it because he was wondering about people's opinions, and wanted to hear their reasons. It wasn't the beste way to express himself, it is true, indeed. But nobody attacked you personally. That's it.

"I should have been there with them when the world crashed down
But now they rest with me.
I'll never forget how I felt that moment
I became Free."

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2019-03-29 16:52:13

@23, I must disagree. While I stand by my submission that the warning should be redacted (because I do believe that was hasty), and while I do believe reopening the topic mightbring some interesting results, the topic also did bring confrontation with it. All you need do is go read it and see how close to negative it was getting near the end. Again, I'm warning you (as a user) to stop your attacks; you are, quite literally, boardering on character assassination of Jade's character. I'm not sure what your trying to do but your not accomplishing it, and your instead proving to the community that you can't take a hint and stop attacking people when there is no particular reason for it and the issue has been explained to you countless times.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2019-03-29 16:59:16

1. Simter had already been bandwagoning the switch to skype 8 as a good thing, and talking about how people who don't switch are foolish, and how happy he will be (or in one case, how happy he was) when skype 7 died. This is confrontational; not warning-worthy on its own, but needlessly confrontational.
2. This topic had come up already, and had already ruffled feathers.
3. In the now-closed topic, other people were already saying things like "none of your business" and variations on "ugh, this again?". So no, I don't believe Simter for a moment was actually trying to gauge opinions. He was trashing skype 7 and trying to push people to switch. He was stirring up the fire to see what would happen. I can see no other explanation than this one. When it walks like a duck, flaps like a duck and quacks like a duck, odds are pretty good it's a duck. I'm thirty-five years old. I'm not young and I'm not stupid. Please believe me when I say that I understand the difference between good faith and bad faith.
4. You keep missing this big picture thing, and I'm about done arguing with you over it. At this point, I am fairly convinced that nothing I say is going to change your mind, so i'm going to have to content myself with the fact that you just. don't. get it.

For one more piece of clarity for others, however, I'd like to talk just a bit about good faith and bad faith.

A good faith argument or point of view is when you declare something, and it's pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. You ask a question because you really do want the answer. You make a point because you really do have something to say, and it has nothing to do with making people upset or blowing smoke to distract from a point you don't like.
By contrast, bad faith means the opposite. A bad-faith question might entail one where you really don't want an answer, or are so convinced you have the answer that you're prepared to utterly frog-stomp whosoever gives it to you. A bad-faith argument can be where you attack a point not because of its overall validity, or on viable grounds, but instead because you don't like who said it.
Bad faith will apply if, for instance, you start up a firestorm because you're annoyed about a thing or want to push an agenda, and then when confronted on it, you're like, "Hey man, I didn't mean anything. Chill.".

I am firmly convinced that Simter was guilty of bad faith reasoning here. He did not, in my estimation, start that skype topic because he wanted to bitch about forks, because he'd been affected and was annoyed (totally legitimate, by the way, as no one wants to be harassed). He didn't start this up because he wanted to generate good discussion. He knew the following:
1. This had already been tried before, and tempers had already flared, thus were likely to do so again with the same tinder provided
2. This forum has had a lot of repeat points/topics/drama brought up, and Simter has been a fringe part of several parts of it
3. He is not in a position to tell anyone to upgrade or use what he uses, as no one has the right to do that
4. He wants skype 7 to die, and it's not dead, and it's clearly upsetting him for some reason, and
5. Simter speaks and understands the language well enough to know what he's trying to say

Therefore, with all those things borne in mind, Simter has no plausible deniability. If he were to claim that he didn't mean harm, it's not plausible. And those of you who claim the topic was doing no harm...same deal. I strongly disagree with you. I firmly believe it was placed there to start a fire, so I put it out.

If you don't like that, there's not much I can do.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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