2019-02-19 04:56:31

I'd be curious to see that email also,  it's a shame nothing was done about it  as from  looking at your guide,   I would be willing to bet it's probably  very well  thought out.
Yes, I'm one of those players that will max out speed and strength or special attack  and keep attacking with super affective damage.
Ikr, On my old computer before it gave up, I wanted to have an entire team of  mythical  and it was torture levelling up galvana

If life ain't eventful ... Make it, For there is infinite potential.

2019-02-19 07:52:53

Galvana being level 40 isn't god-awful. This is a thing I've seen in pokemon before, where the level of a mythical is either considerably higher or considerably lower than your team, and you have to be careful. Because honestly, a Pandourbit makes the Galvana fight absolute cake (Galvana can't even hit it, I don't think). Soul Split till it's at low HP, then chuck giganets. But yeah, it's annoying, if nothing else.

And so apparently there were slightly fewer suggestions in my email, but I dug it up and here it is. Fair warning. It's freaking long.

**********

So, I wrote you awhile back, and I'm sort of following up with some
more detailed manamon feedback. Hopefully you take at least some of
this under advisement, if you ever decide to update the game. I'm
going to restrain myself to stuff in game that wouldn't actually take
a whole ton of coding (no new moves, no teachable moves like I was
talking about last time). Most of what you're going to see below are
stat and learnset tweaks that would hugely help out certain manamon.

Viralite: Give this guy more defense, or a ton of HP, or something.
His two dodge-based abilities don't help when he has about 42 defense
around level 60. He's busted, pure and simple.

Donnammer: Are you aware this guy's learnset includes Charge twice,
and that his ability, Heavy Hitter, only comes into play with the move
Sparking Tail? I was expecting him to learn Thunder Hammer, but he
never did. Was hoping he'd learn Power Kick too, but he hasn't seemed
to. He does get Hammerhead and Sparking Tail very early, which is
cool, but I feel like his ability's not working very hard for him.

Ghoperto: Can he get Spirit Force or PsychoTrick or something? Please?
His only ghost move is, um, Tricky Gaze. He's got the stats to pull it
off, and he's not seriously threatening at the moment. I feel like
he's half annoyer, half attacker, and he can't really pull off either
set well.

Sullorb: Nice stats, terrible moves. He gets Spirit Force, which is
neat, and Starfall, and Eternal Vortex, and the rest of his moveset is
support. I would love to see this guy get Rock Avalanche, like Simulon
(I'll hit Simulon later) and Meteor Rush. I've pushed a Sullorb to
level 61 or 62, and its last move appears to be Mystic Guard; I
wouldn't care if Meteor Rush came at like 65-70 or something, just as
long as he got it.

Lamgurk: This guy is crying out for Earthquake, and I wish Normality
worked no matter what Lamgurk's HP was (to give him a bit more clout,
you don't see him till later after all).

Simulon: I want to like this guy. His defenses are nice. But his
attack stat is bad, and he's slow, and he's a pure stone type. Rock
Avalanche is neat, but he still dies reliably to everything in two
hits. I'd suggest buffing his HP a bit, jacking his attack a goodish
bit (he doesn't have any abilities after all) and seeing how that
works out. Right now he's not useful.

Vultair: Any chance this dude can get Torch? His best flame moves are
Broil or Flame Blizzard; the first is situational and the second
chancy at best. I'd also like to see it get either Wind Force or Wing
Slash, or even Fly, instead of being stuck with only Suicide Dive.
Such nice stat potential, and again, it seems largely wasted.

Duskond: All that attack and special attack, and it can't use special
attack. Please, please make Night Stick a special shadow move instead
of physical; even its description sounds special-based. I would also
like to see Duskond get something better than Fear Feed at level 49.
It's way too frail as it stands. Black Mana or something, even Soul
Split, would be a welcome addition for this guy.

Deciced: Along with this, please give Deciced Scourge Tail instead of
Night Stick. Right now it doesn't much matter, but this thing is a
physical attacking fish, fish have tails, so it makes more sense that
he get Scourge Tail. Would also be nice to see Deciced get Frostbite
(fish has teeth, it's an ice type), and make Frigid Touch a special
move (this would greatly benefit Arctana).

Snowmonno: A little more defense, please. It's too frail and has too
many weaknesses. If the Frigid Touch change comes in, I'd like to see
him get Frostbite instead, or I'd like to see his special attack jack
up a bit (Frigid Touch was one of Snowmonno's main selling points, but
the reasons for changing it to a special move are just too good to
pass up, as ice has very few strong physical moves).

Fingon: He gets Hone Blade, and I think the only moves he can use with
it are Pounce and Suffocate. That's bad. Can we maybe either 1. make
Waterbomb physical, or 2. give him some other stuff to make use of
Hone Blade? Right now it's essentially useless.

Drabao: Can he get Dragon Fang instead of Elemental Breath? Please?
Elemental Breath is the sort of thing where you get lucky sometimes,
but mostly you hit neutral or resisted damage since there's no way to
take the randomness away. It also comes off a much lower special
attack, and given the way training goes, it's probably better to put
this guy's train points into attack/speed/defense/HP, and not worry
about special attack.

Sluggugg: This guy wants to be good, and I like the move variation on
him. But can he seriously get a buff to his HP? He dies way, way too
easily. Hibernate is useless on this guy for precisely that reason.
All the Flame Blizzards and Toxic Sprays and Black Bites in the world
won't save you if you have less HP than Bombusect. And at least
Bombusect is undead.

Bombusect: I would like to see this guy get a little more HP. Not a
ton, but a little. Again, dies too easily, and I think giving a
manamon a bit more sticking power is almost never a bad thing.

Remullion: He has a pile of special attack he never uses and probably
never will. Any chance some of this can be redistributed amongst the
stats he does use? He's got a very nice overall stat total but can't
use part of it, and I think that's a shame, given that you can't get
him till well after the fifth stadium, and even then only if you know
how (which you aren't explicitly told till the postgame). I don't even
think any tamers have Remullion.

Frorgeril: This dude is begging for Superspark, or anything that isn't
Power Surge or Lightning Bolt.

Thornita: Could we maybe get a poison move stronger than Acid Slap on
this guy? Poison Dart, or maybe Ooze Blast.

Trumer: This isn't actually a criticism of Trumer, who's not too bad,
it's a point at Poison Dart. This move, I think, should be physical,
not special. You're firing a literal dart that explodes and sprays
acid, and we've already got Ooze Blast for a potential physical
attack. Trumer would do better damage with Poison Dart if it was
physical. So would a couple of others, actually.

Recobrah: Can he get Sonic Missile, or some other non-Sonic-Boom sound
move? As it stands, his sound typing is an afterthought and his poison
typing is a hindrance.

Thundron: Toxic Tail! There's a tamer who's got a Thundron with Toxic
Tail, and I think that would be an excellent move on a manamon who's
slow, sort of bulky, and has two common double weaknesses. I think he
needs all the help he can get, frankly. Toxic Storm isn't bad, but
Toxic Tail is better, and he's a snake with a tail, so...

Fowliture: He (a part sound type) gets Magic Lights instead of
Subliminal Radio Wave. Then Myaneko (holy/magic type, I'll hit him
later too) gets Subliminal Radio Wave instead of Magic Lights. To me,
this is backward. Not a huge deal, but it's backward.

Myaneko: Okay, seriously tried to use this guy, and while he's got
enormous HP, it doesn't matter with his typing and his terrible
defenses. He just...dies. His best attacking move seems to be Holy
Light, which isn't bad but isn't going to precisely win him any
praise. If his attack and special attack were both quite high, along
with modest-going-on-good speed, he'd be dangerous and worth using,
the typical glass cannon sort. As it stands, he's busted.

Orystar: Would love to see this guy get Wind Force over Wing Slash.
This wouldn't be enormous, but I'd like it. Orystar's attack isn't
bad, but it would be nice to be able to rely on only special attack
for damage.

Rhinodyo: A sound type which is set up physically. There are no
physical sound moves (Rhinodyo gets only Sonic Missile), so because
you can't teach manamon their own moves, this guy is basically not
nearly living up to his potential. If you ever get around to making
some new sound moves, please make sure Rhinodyo gets a couple.

Steelion: This one's interesting. I like its ability, but its special
defense is low enough that even special attacks it resists do pretty
big damage, and it doesn't precisely have the speed to sweep. I'd like
to see him get considerably faster, or have considerably more HP (the
former makes him a partial sweeper, the latter a better tank). Not
both, obviously, that would be too much.

Wizzell: This guy's not bad, but I'd like to see him get Meteor Rush
at some point, maybe at a high level.

Turoison: Eksponge beats this guy eight ways to Sunday, unless you
need Toxic Storm, which you nearly always don't. Eksponge gets Daring
Comeback and Restrain, plus it gets a really weird Limb Thrust, and
it's nearly as defensive as Turoison. Would love to see Turoison get a
significant buff to his HP, to turn him into a real tank and
differentiate him from the sponge, who just outperforms him in
general.

Jimitron: Would love to see this one get some defense. Not loads more,
but at least a bit; it's extremely frail, and doesn't have the punch
to make up for it.

Ratiera: Would like to see this one get a buff to both of its
defenses, not huge but decent. That way it doesn't (yet again) die to
two hits of everything. I love finding Ratiera on tamer teams, because
they just...die.

Domestress: Any chance she could have better stats across the board?
She's uncommon, you don't get her till just before the fifth stadium,
and yeah, her ability is sweet, but it's not like she's got great
moves. Slam and Rookie Punch aren't precisely amazing. Power Pacify is
awesome...but again, she's more a liability in most cases.

Magmazire: For a three-stage flame manamon, this guy's defense is
actually pretty bad, and so is his speed. I'd like to see it get more
defense (it's sorta okay if he's slow).

Sacroloon: Actually, Sacroloon is pretty incredible, and I think this
is a case where you got him just right. But why does Matthew's
Sacroloon know Inner Healing? Isn't that basically cheating? Pretty
sure Seinarus's knows Wing Slash as well, which would be more of the
same. Putting Inner Healing on a Sacroloon is borderline overpowered,
if you ask me, given its stat spread, so I think Matthew's Sacroloon
should actually lose that, and get Daring Comeback instead.

Garganchan: With low-ish defense, fairly bad HP and awful, awful
speed, this guy, as a flame-fighting type, is begging to die. The only
reason I was able to use one semi-successfully is because AI is
stupid. Can we make this guy have a lot more HP? I mean, he is a
freaking giant. At least that way, if he gets hit hard, he doesn't
just fall over and croak. He'd still be slow, and would still have to
take hits, but that's okay, given his phenomenal attack and nice moves
(congrats for giving him Earthquake, a nice touch).

Tenshaino: This guy makes me wish there were holy moves that were
physical-based and weaker, because levelling him is a right pain
before level 47. You're stuck with White Lance (not many use points)
or Rookie Punch or whatever it is. Or Takedown, which will of course
kill him gradually. I love his stat spread overall, I like that he
gets Inner Healing and later Hone Blade, plus Battlecry. That's
awesome. I'd just like to see a physical holy move at lower levels for
him (and maybe Squirmunk/Miterosier/Myaneko) to learn. Hell,
Retribution might be nice on this guy too at high levels. Not sure.

Frenrir: More attack or more defense, less special attack (which it
basically doesn't/can't use).

Submenno: This guy is basically a physical-based version of Arctana,
except worse. Can he get more speed/more attack? Also, more Frostbite.
Haha.

Squarpha: Relies on I think Tri-Beam and Bubble Burst for damage, and
none of his stats are all that good. Meteor Rush/Drench would be very
welcome on this guy, as would a small bump in stats across the board.
I do mean small...he's mediocre right now, we wouldn't want him
becoming overpowered.

Sansurgion: For a pure poison type, I'd like to see him have either
more HP or more attack/special attack. Right now he's sort of decent,
but doesn't really have a lot of advantages and wastes a team slot
because you can usually find something else (Trumer, even, and that's
saying something) to do the same thing as well or better.



And a couple of type tweaks I'd love to see:

1. Make steel resist air
2. Make poison do super-effective damage against water (you're making
water impure)
3. Undead should lose its poison immunity
4. Steel should be immune to poison (how exactly do you poison steel?)
5. fighting should be super-effective against undead, as should either
fire or shadow (currently I think it's only holy, and that's just too
strong)
6. stone should resist insect, but earth should not
7. holy should not be super-effective against ice, since ice has
enough problems already
8. ice types should be immune to freeze status (they currently are not)

And a bunch of move tweaks. Nothing really new under the sun, just a
few numerical alterations. I've played this game more than eight times
now. I've written a walkthrough on it. I've tried damn near every
manamon. All of these suggestions, both above and below, come from a
great deal of experience, not just a desire to whine.

1. Make Night Stick special
2. Make Poison Dart physical
3. Increase Ooze Blast to 80 power
4. Give Drench 100% accuracy
5. Make Lava Lick 60 power
6. Make Psycho Trick 75 power
7. Increase Magic Lights and Subliminal Radio Wave to 100% accuracy
8. Make Knockout Venom 90% accurate
9. All moves that hit 1-6 times should be tweaked to hit 2-6 times
10. Make Smoke and Mirrors 85% accurate
11. Make Black Bite 55 power if it isn't already
12. Increase Skull Duggery damage to 70 power, and accuracy to 95%
13. Hibernate should put the user to sleep for 2 turns, not 3, for
better usability
14. Magic Dragon should be special, and 95 power
15. Make Magic Wave 75 power, and 95% accuracy
16. Make Sparking Tail 90% accurate instead of 80%
17. Lower damage of Limb Thrust from 145 to 125
18. Make Power Surge 100% accurate
19. Make Slam 100% accurate
20. Dark Gift should sacrifice 1 stage of attack for 2 stages of
special attack, or 1 stage of special attack and 1 of speed
21. Make Vulnerability Scan 55 power and 100% accurate
22. Make Toxic Storm 85 power and 100% accurate
23. Make Fang Drain 60 power
24. Make Mud Ball 30 power, and physical
25. Make Mudslide 85% accurate
26. Make Starfall 50 power and 100% accurate
27. Make Holy Light 75 power
28. Make Power Punch 70 power
29. Make Shadow Claw 60 power
30. Make Diabolical Fire 60 power
31. Sucker Root, Gammadrain and Alphadrain, in that order, should be
35, 55, and 80 power, respectively; I might have Alpha and Gamma
backward, if so, just switch them
32. Tunnel should be 80 power, not 90
33. Zap Slam should be 75% accurate
34. Restrain and Stifle should both be 100% accurate
35. Adrenaline Rush should not drain HP the way it does (this makes it
virtually unusable); instead, half of the user's max HP should be
taken away to maximize the attack stat
36. Quake should be 100% accurate
37. Stone Throw should be 100% accurate
38. Sing should be 85% accurate
39. Storm Rush should be 100% accurate, and 145 power (two-turn attack)
40. Frenzied Rage should be 140 power and 100% accurate
41. Deadman's Curse should only remove 1/4 the user's HP; removing 1/2
makes it pretty much an immediate death sentence
42. If not already, Rock Avalanche should be 100% accurate
43. Eternal Vortex should be 90% accurate
44. Rookie Kick should be 60 power and 100% accurate to further
differentiate it from Rookie Punch
45. Frigid Touch should be special, and 100% accurate

There's an overbearing theme here. Most of your moves have accuracy
penalties. This means that sometimes a couple of really untimely
misses can really ruin your day, or, for that matter, really make a
fight a cakewalk. This might be your preference, but it isn't mine.
The issue is that certain types (earth, flame, air, even dragon) have
reliable damage, while almost all other types don't. By "reliable" I
mean that it will hit without accuracy modifiers in play. I have no
problem with moves not hitting if someone used Obscure or Sandy Wind
or Smoke Shield or whatever, but I'd like to be able to rely on a
manamon to hit what it attacks more often than not, and for that
matter, I want to actually be worried about the same from tamers. The
more you rely on accuracy penalties, the more the game becomes
luck-based instead of skill-based, and to my way of thinking, a
strategy game like this should be more about skill than luck. Luck
will always, always have its place (thus critical hits, and the
evasion stat in the first place), but to lean on it this much...well,
let's just put it this way. Many players I've spoken to say that
accuracy is one of the frustrating elements of the game. And uneven
type recognition (insects are woefully under-represented, as are
dragons, and the undead type is small but extremely powerful) is
another problem they cite.

So all the above stuff is meant to say that I want to help make
manamon even better. Much of these tweaks would come as a huge, huge
improvement, and the grand majority of them would literally be a case
of plugging in new numbers for moves and stats. For the things I've
suggested should be tweaked to physical or special or whatever, I
imagine that you've got moves flagged by type and by atribute
(elemental type, I mean, and physical/special atribute). Just flick
the physical/special flag the other way.
A few hours of work on stuff like this, even if you did like half of
what I've suggested here, would do three important things:
1. It would convince players that you're still listening to feedback;
this is big if you want to maintain your player base for this and for
upcoming releases;
2. It would vastly improve the gameplay (I'm not kidding, this isn't
purely personal opinion here, and believe me, I understand your
worries about making stuff too strong)
3. By virtue of the fact that many players would appreciate the
changes, it would very likely have future titles looked at more
favourably. Listen, everything of this nature is a learning process,
and not getting every single thing right is completely okay. I'm not
trying to rag on you. But there will come points when we, as
developers and potential developers, must realize that we can do
better, and that a few small tweaks can make a world of difference.
These are just those sorts of tweaks, so I hope you seriously consider
them.

Now, on a slightly different angle, I don't know if you're working on
manamon 2 yet, or if that's even in the cards, but I would love,
absolutely love to help with that if I can. I actually have a document
with over 110 new manamon in it that I created in the autumn, which I
could flesh out and build statistically (stats, movesets, manapedia
entries, the whole works) or could just toss at you to see if you
liked names and things. Design of this nature is right up my alley.
And no, I'm not trying to do this so I can show you up either; I
genuinely love this kind of game, and if Manamon 2 is better than the
first, and if I can help to make it a game worth playing, then I'd
love to do it. If nothing else, I'd like to beta-test, and I have more
than enough background that I could do it thoroughly and fairly.

Please do write back at some point, even if it's just to tell me that
you're going to essentially ignore the email and all subsequent
attempts to contact you. I hope that's not the case, but I recognize
that I might have ruffled your feathers with this attempt at
communication. It's not my intention, I assure you. If, on the other
hand, you have the time, the inclination and the means, we could
always talk more informally on skype or something, if it comes to
that.

Sincerely,
Gregg Chambers

P.s.: Irrespective of the above, do you have a design document for
manamon's base stats? If so, I would love to see it. I don't know if
you're doing it like pokemon, or if your internal setup is different,
but I'd love to see stuff on paper, so to speak, rather than having to
essentially catch everything, breed it for good stats, and then hope
I'm getting an accurate picture.

G.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-02-19 09:08:13

Wow, that's a lot. I can't really comment on it though personally, as I haven't played with most of the manamon you mentioned. Thanks for sharing though.

"You know nothing of death... allow me to teach you!" Dreadlich Tamsin
Download the latest version of my Bokura no Daibouken 3 guide here.

2019-02-19 09:39:31

I definitely agree with you about accuracy.  Many moves are rendered busted  by how impractically luck based they are.  This is an impressive list and I think would have made the game much  more balanced  and enjoyable.
How do you get Magic Dragon?  Is it on tabulas?

If life ain't eventful ... Make it, For there is infinite potential.

2019-02-19 11:14:34

Yes. I'm pretty sure that's the only manamon that learns it.

And this list of mine doesn't even scratch the surface. I didn't include everything. I can think of a few more right off the top of my hand. Giving Junanchel better coverage, giving Bayowoof better coverage, giving the mythical trio (not the dragons) better moves so they're worth using (Blaizond beats Kinidul, pretty much, and Frenrir/Deciced beat Polosses, arguably).
And this says nothing of all the busted items, like speed anklet and heavy blade and various others. And I totally ignored Placebo, because Placebot is a neat idea on paper that fails utterly in combat.
But...yeah. That scratches the surface. I still feel like if I had access to the game's files, I could make Manamon a much better and more balanced experience in a matter of days. And I'm aware of how arrogant that might sound, but I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe it. Unless, of course, it's full of "spaghetti code" where any change requires a metric crapton of fixes.

Fun fact: a level 1 Pandourbit holding a Dimbranch Club can kill a level 65 Bayowoof.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-02-19 12:25:04

I want to play with different types of manamon, but I hate sitting to grind day and night just to get the story going.

2019-02-19 17:06:56

I'd be curious to know what Aaron had to say in response to your email, which was well done BTW. You were offering him some ideas, not criticism, and you were polite. I am going to say this, and it might get me moderation, but here goes. Aaron, while making some great games, doesn't seem inclined to listen to the consumers. The idea of never adjusting dragon strikes in Paladin comes to mind. It seems a shame that a developer doesn't want to take consumers' ideas into consideration. Audio games are a small market with a small audience, so keeping your audience at the forefront seems essential, especially if you are going to charge for a game. Having said that, I know developers who make free games who are quite attentive to consumers' ideas. Yukio comes to mind.

2019-02-19 18:08:00

See, that is precisely how we should address developers who make decisions we aren't certain of. You're not attacking Aaron or calling him an idiot or swearing at him. You're calling a choice he made into question. I've done this more than once, both with Aaron and a few others, and you make a good point regarding Yukio and people like that, who, while they may not take every suggestion, understand when the writing's on the wall (take Carla from BK3, for instance; I want her to be immune to friendly fire, and that's apparently not going to happen, but Yukio has worked hard to make her more intelligent and able to protect herself in stages 11-12. Compromise.)

I am considering sharing the email correspondence, but if I do, I will almost certainly damage whatever tenuous relationship I have with Aaron. At this point I have to chew on whether or not it's worth it, but I'm leaning toward showing it, because it is my email as much as his own, and there's nothing personally identifiable in there (I'd redact it if there was, though).

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-02-19 18:21:24

Hell with it. Here goes. It's long.



**********Hello,

I'm hesitant to reply. Last time I replied, the email was immediately made public.
Now, there wasn't anything terribly important in those emails, but if I had wanted to make the information public, I would have made it public and I did not appreciate the manner in which that was handled.
To be fare, you probably thought nothing of it, and perhaps you didn't see it as a problem.
But especially if you were interested in collaborating on future projects, even as little as beta testing, that foundation of trust has to be established, something which I think was regrettably damaged from the outset due to this incident.

I am very busy with my job and college, so I don't know what my game development schedule is, both in terms of maintenance as well as future development prospects.

There is a subset of the list you wrote that I'm definitely interested in doing, whether it takes place in an update or in a future Manamon title.

The first generation of Pokemon was broken. I believe Manamon's first generation was less so. If I get to make future generations, some of the issues you've mentioned would be resolved in other ways than some of the ways you've suggested, others would likely be resolved in the way you stated, such as type advantages. A few of those were already planned, if not before than in a theoretical sequel.
Some of the suggestions, such as making restrain and stifle 100% accurate are regrettably shortsighted.
They were much closer to 100% originally, but due to actually having the mechanics in this altered state, its easier to see how they become too overpowered. This is the case with many, many of your suggestions, though far from all. Drench having 100% accuracy, for example, isn't likely a game breaker. big_smile
Two other suggestions which would be unwise based off of my experience developing the game for the extended period I did include:
Sing to 80 accuracy (It used to be 70 and that was bad enough!)
Magic Lights and Subliminal Radio Wave to 100 accuracy is also a very unwise decision.

I've not hypothesized about things being too strong, I've had them that strong and seen in a practical sense how they break things.
Once again, though, this doesn't apply to all your suggestions.

I hope you are having a wonderful new year!

Best,
Aaron Baker
VGStorm


Hey there,

Couple of things here:

First, I didn't actually share the email, I only spoke of some of the
things I read in that email publicly. Having not been told this was
something you didn't want public, I had no way of knowing you would
take exception to this. In fact, since the things you said were the
rationale you were using as a means of saying this or that or the
other thing wouldn't work, or wasn't ideal at the present time, I
actually figured you'd be just as happy making that public as not, if
ever asked. Your quietness on the audiogames.net forum I took as
nothing more than not wanting to keep up with a thread which at the
time was kind of nuts. In other words, I had a good reason to think
you wouldn't care that it went public in the manner that it did, and
no reason not to think you'd want it to stay private. If nothing else,
I saw it as something you'd explain to anyone who asked, but only if
they asked. As such, I apologize for what you see as a breach of
trust. I never saw it as such, but now that I know your feelings on
this, I would be much more circumspect in future.

Now, I'm going to break a couple of your potential game-changer
scenarios down because you've provided them.

Sing being more accurate: 80% accurate is still a 1 in 5 chance it
doesn't hit. If hit, you can still use an item to heal it (except in
online battles, but it's easy to enforce a sort of "sleep clause" in
online battles, where only one manamon on a team may be asleep at a
given time). If Sing misses, or if something else on the team is
asleep, or if the player uses an item, it becomes a wasted turn, since
Sing does no damage. This is a game-changer, but not a game-breaker.
Making it too inaccurate will essentially render it mostly unusable by
players. There is a reason that most pokemon players, to this day I
might add, don't use Sing very often, but do use Sleep Powder, which
is 90% accurate (so I took middle ground and went for 80). Also,
here's another kicker. I'm pretty sure Sleep Spray is more accurate
than Sing, and nothing resists it; manamon who are immune to sound
moves are also immune to Sing. More rationale to improve its chances.

Magic Lights/Subliminal Radio Wave: Pokemon, on which manamon is
largely based, has a move called Confuse Ray that's 100% accurate.
Gamefreak has gone through seven generations of metagame, some more
broken than others. Confuse Ray's accuracy has not changed, and I've
read hundreds of threads (yes, I mean that literally) discussing
complex metagame strategies. I have never, not even once, heard that
Confuse Ray needs nerfing. Some pokemon are immune to confusion
(though not many). You can become unconfused by switching. Confusion
is an annoyer strategy, and even the chance to hit yourself in
confusion is, what, 50%? The only concession Gamefreak made to
confusion in general is that they made it 1 in 3 in the latest
generation, which makes it a bit less of a crutch to use. Even still,
I'd hardly have labelled that a necessary change. Trust me on this. If
moves that don't do damage miss a lot, or miss at all really, a player
may find themselves wondering why they're bothering. This has been
something I've seen pretty universally in the manamon thread, and have
also seen in pokemon.

Restrain/Stifle: First of all, congrats for thinking of this to begin
with, as I like the idea that certain attack types can get shut down
for a couple of turns. Nothing which gets Restrain or Stifle, except
Dormanoid, can actually stop a foe from switching. Forcing switches
doesn't break your metagame, it deepens it. If Restrain and Stifle are
100% accurate, they can be used as better arguments for the manamon
which have them. Squarpha, for instance; stifle on Squarpha right now
is kind of a crapshoot, but if it's a guaranteed hit if it fires it
off, then it can reliably shut down special attackers if it's lucky.
But here's something else to think about. Pandourbit is a
standard-earth type, which neutralizes three types (fighting,
standard, electric) just by being a Pandourbit. It also has Entrap, so
if the moves you have are of those types, you're dead. Dormanoid can
also do this because it's immune to magic and poison, and has Entrap.
There are other more fringe scenarios, but I'd argue that those combos
break/change your metagame far, far more than 90% accurate
Stifle/Restrain. Bear in mind, I have hundreds of hours of testing
under my belt on this. I have never, ever once thought Restrain or
Stifle was too powerful; they made me think on my feet, which I like.

Regarding your investiture in future, I obviously can't speak, but one
thing is absolutely, irrefutably clear. More than half of your manamon
won't stand up competitively, which means your metagame is broken just
like pokemon's gen 1 metagame was. That metagame was basically
mastered by about 20 pokemon, a mix of which you'd see on every team.
Manamon has the same problem, with the added drawback that virtually
every manamon of species x has the same moveset. So no, pokemon
doesn't have quite the same diversity manamon does, but there is
absolutely no doubt that the pokemon gen 1 metagame has serious
advantages. And if you're just too busy to address them, or can't be
bothered, that's fine, but labelling my findings as shortsighted?
That's not something I think is either accurate or kind. Not a single
suggestion I gave you in the last email was made on the spur of the
moment; each and every one is something I could explain with
rationale, and as of yet I have no contrary evidence.
Example: I can prove to you that Viralite is busted, numerically
and/or with a battle log. Can you prove to me in similar fashion that
a 100%-accurate Magic Lights is game-breaking? You make a lot of
claims about how things were/are too strong, but you don't
substantiate them. You're a busy guy, maybe that's not worth your
time, but from my perspective, I'm at least nominally willing to help
you thrash numbers and improve the game.

In any case, I will reiterate my apology for apparently damaging your
trust, and will hope that you, too, are having yourself a good year.

Gregg


Hello,

Trust me, my use of the word short sighted is far, far, far more kind than most of the words you have used to describe my work, and my opinions.
Well, too, it isn't so much the words you use as it is the sarcastic and offensive manner in which you use them.
I do believe you described, publically,  some things I've done as bullcrap.
Much, much, much more unkind than saying that I believed some of your ideas were a little short sighted.
Viralite is broken, yes. I never refuted that. He was designed to be a gimic. He wasn't designed to be amazing or useful, he was designed to be kind of cool / interesting. Kind of like Shedinja. Well, not really like Shedinja, but the same idea of a weird very gimmicky creature.

Stifle and Restrain are powerful because often times that can shut down a Manamon completely since it is most often the case that a single type of move, physical or special, is used.
My time testing while developing was most certainly more extensive than your time playing as a consumer.
That doesn't make your ideas worthless, far from it, but ultimately you haven't been able to tweak the settings at a whim to test different scenarios like I have.
I found that Stifle and Restrain were too powerful in their more accurate state.
Yes, I admit that Sleep Spray is more accurate than Sing, at least I think it is, but it also has to do with when a Manamon is introduced with it.
The Bell Tower is already the definition of annoying with all the Singing Chingle.
You don't run into an enemy, barring a possible run in with Sierra, with a creature knowing Sleep Spray for quite a bit further on than that.
So while your focused on the metagame, there are many, many other aspects you have to keep in mind. You have to think, OK, how might this adversely effect the current game.
The metagame was an after thought, it truly was. I never dreamed I'd be able to code an online battle system, it just seemed beyond my skills as a programmer.
So when it happened, the game was already close to the end of its development period.
So, where as the metagame would be considered possibly more so in a sequel, that's ultimately not what Manamon is about. Manamon, unlike Pokemon, is about, in Final Fantasy fassion, the story, the exploration, and an RPG battle system that beats all current gbattle systems in the audio game world.

Paladin. Paladin of the Sky was a step on the ladder to Manamon. Maybe Manamon will be a step on the ladder to something else, I don't know.
But I can't take you at your word that change x would be beneficial.
I have to implement it, find out if it does indeed have problems, and if so, revert the change.
It would be silly to expect me to implement a change because you said so, and I'm sure that is indeed not what you want anyway.

That being said, I really don't want to begin a long drawn out discussion of this.
I normally like discussion, even debate, but most aspects of this are purely opinions. Nobody can objectively be correct.
We can of course pick a standard with which to compare, and using that we can be more right than the other person, but picking this standard is a subjective practice.

But I'm also not interested in being called unkind when I use a very slightly loaded word, when I've read much more overtly hostile words and phrases you've written in public on the forums than I certainly care to.

And I definitely apologize if you felt my choice of words was unjustifiably harsh.

All the best,
Aaron Baker
VGStorm


Hey,

It's true, I have been rather harsh in public. Not as harsh as some
others, but yes, I've been critical. There are two reasons (not
excuses, reasons) for this.
1. Some of the choices you've made are developmentally insupportable
(why does Donnammer have Charge in his moveset twice? Why doesn't
Lamgurk get a good earth move till Mudslide? Why are there no
special-type shadow moves and no physical sound moves?). As a person
who shelled out the better part of fifty Canadian dollars for your
game and didn't know this was going to be an issue before I bought it,
I confess that it hit me rather hard when I saw these issues start
popping up. I guess you can say that I was disappointed or dismayed,
and reacted strongly. If I have insulted you by being that firm in my
opinions, I do apologize. I attempt to be constructive wherever
possible, but I'm definitely not always gentle.
2. With both paladin and Manamon, you have, in my eyes at least,
unfortunately developed a reputation as someone who thinks they're
right without actually demonstrating why, as well as a reputation for
someone who just...does stuff by their gut. You didn't want to add
NVDA support, and discussing it rationally felt like pulling teeth.
You thought giving a fighting type a fighting move would make it too
strong (and you finally, finally caved on this, so Tenshaino gets his
only decent 60-power fighting move at level 47 now). You categorically
refused, when discussion of Paladin of the Sky was rampant, to
consider any changes to the dragon strike scrolls, even the obnoxious
ones like Volcanic Storm that most people probably ignore and skip
over because Eternal Vortex comes along and makes it obsolete.
Now combine point 1 with point 2, and remember that I am a developer
at heart. Remember that I've played hundreds of hours of both pokemon
and manamon. Remember that I'm a numbers person. I test to break
things, to wonder about game viability, to try and create unwinnable
or unlosable scenarios. From my side of the fence, I've just been
super-excited and pleased by the release of manamon, shelled out money
on it, then realized that I'm seeing a lot of holes. Some are
opinion-based, like you said. Some, though, aren't. They absolutely
aren't. I'm sorry, but getting Charge twice in the same learnset is
something a beta tester should've caught; not getting any decent earth
moves before the mid to late 40s is something else that should've been
caught. When I pointed out some of these things - and not always in
sarcastic or aggressive tones, I must say - I was met with either
stubbornness, lack of explanation or dead silence. And don't get me
wrong. You as the game creator have every right to act this way if you
want to. But I'm a customer, and as a customer I have the right to
voice my opinions. If the way I first formed those opinions, and then
held them, became aggressive, it is because a whole bunch of factors
in essence led me to become rather disenchanted. What's more, I know
I'm by no means the only one who sees these issues for what they are,
so in a worst-case scenario is't the opinions of a bunch of players
vs. your own opinion. You get to call the shots, but if you call
enough of them badly (badly in the eyes of your players I mean) then
you will negatively impact future sales. People will pigeon-hole you
as a fellow who does stuff without knowledge, or who doesn't listen
well to player feedback. It's already happened in some circles. If
this is the outlook you support, then have on. I can't stop you. If
you enjoy developing audiogames as much as you say you do, though, I
had thought you would be a little more open about the opinions of
others.

So why write you like this? I can almost hear you asking why I'm
bothering. It's because I really think these changes, or many of them,
can help. I really think I know what I'm talking about, maybe even
better than you do in some instances. To use your Chingle example: you
made the choice to give them Sing early on, so you made it inaccurate
because there are a lot of them. Okay, so why do other manamon, who
get Sing far later in the game, have to suffer just because your
Chingle are annoying if Sing is too accurate? You didn't think I
considered that, but I had. Note how instead of suggesting new moves
(replacements for Sing on other manamon), I suggested tweaking the
accuracy of Sing to a modest 85%. Those self-same Chingle are
virtually helpless; it's not as if falling asleep one too many times
will totally wreck the difficulty curve.


Just a few more things here.

Gimicks are fun when they work. Shadinja worked, sort of. Viralite
doesn't. They enter battle, and they die. Shadinja, at least, could
shut down all kinds of things not named sandstorm/hail/spikes damage.
Viralite is dead to essentially the first thing that hits it.

Some of what I say is definitely opinion, yes. Some of it isn't
though. Let's take the ingame situation rather than the metagame one,
and look at sluggugg. It has low HP, has decent stats across the board
otherwise, and gets some neat stuff like Broil, Toxic Spray and
eventually an early Flame Blizzard. But its low HP means it will die
in one hit of virtually anything it's weak to. Being asleep for three
turns, or at the very least not attacking for two turns (one for
Hibernate, one for the item to cure sleep) is a huge deal when you
don't have much HP. Did you actually test Sluggugg playability, or is
he another gimick?

I seriously wish there was a way that we, as players, could sort of
have a sandbox mode. I would love to implement the changes I suggested
on some private copy of the game, then run a playthrough and see if I
found any of the supposed game-breaking issues which make my
suggestions shortsighted. I am quite confident that I would find few
to no such issues, and would love to prove it, but with things as they
are, I can't. This is why I wanted - and still want - to help you,
despite the obvious tension here. I know I'm a handful, and that I've
probably upset/bothered you, but I'm also willing and able to put in
the work, to test things maybe you haven't thought of. Best of all, I
am more than willing to admit that I'm wrong as well. Take Submenno.
Let's say for some reason I decided to give him 15 extra attack, and
it turns out he utterly wrecks the game and is just too good. I'd
admit it without a second look.
In any case, yeah. This is the sort of thing that makes me wish I
could get at the code someplace and edit values (accuracy modifiers,
base damage and base stats, mostly), so I could actually spit numbers
and support my points more credibly...credibly enough that the dozens
of suggestions I've made wouldn't largely be put under the umbrella of
"opinion".

Anyway, I'm done here, I think. Offer is still on the table, but I
don't hold out much hope for it.

**********

So the takeaway here is this:
1. Aaron believes he knows better but doesn't really prove it,
2. He's busy and has a personal life (and that part? totally, 100% cool with that)
3. The way he argues re: Sing/Stifle/Restrain proves he hasn't studied comparable games enough to find out what works,
4. In an unshared email he likened the cost of Manamon to the cost of a major 3DS title, which...I don't even know, and
5. It's been, what, two years since this correspondence? Storm Rush still has an accuracy penalty and so does Drench. 'Nuff said, really.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-02-19 18:33:33

OK Jade, I have read all of this, and I tend to be on your side here. I think it boils down to whether or not the developer, in this case Aarin, wants to take the time ti make changes. He says he can't just take your word for it. I say, well why the hell not. Those of us who have invested several hours into the game should at least be given some respect in that we might know what we're talking about. It would be one thing if you had said, this game sucks bc drench isn't accurate. And, if Virallite was designed at a gimic, shouldn't we be told that from the outset? Many of us, for instance, have suggested making myaneko easier to catch, or at least less rare, but again, he says no, absolutely not. At least compromise by taking teleport away or something. If he is indeed too busy with his job and school, then it seems like the price for the game should be lowered at the very least. As of now, it is essentially a dead game with no support.

2019-02-19 18:36:01

As an addendum here, dormonoid has been the unknown gift for at least a year now. I guess we can start calling it known gifts. LOL

2019-02-19 19:58:25

Yeah... I kinda do wish we could get access to at least the numbers to mess around with.

"You know nothing of death... allow me to teach you!" Dreadlich Tamsin
Download the latest version of my Bokura no Daibouken 3 guide here.

2019-02-19 20:27:57

It bears mentioning here that in sharing what I've shared, I'm not trying to toss Aaron under the bus or start a fire under him or anything. I respect the fact that he made a game with very few bugs, and that he's done that before as well. I may not agree with many of his design choices, but he's done many things right, too, and I don't take that away from him. Not a bit. The only reason I shared is because I feel if you're a dev answering someone like this, regarding suggested tweaks, then you should be accountable. If I ever get any games off the ground, btw, and start talking to one or more of you privately about tweaks you're suggesting, feel free to turn this right around on me. I won't say anything privately to you in an email that I wouldn't say to your face regarding game development; I have nothing to hide.
In the case of Manamon, I feel like I'm one of the game's foremost experts (arrogant or honest? you decide). And so that's why I made all my suggestions and whatnot. It's not just opinion. It's hard-countering assumption with fact. I think the example with Confuse Ray (100% accurate) vs. the 85% accurate magic Lights/Subliminal Radio Wave is especially enlightening. Oh, and the accuracy penalties Aaron admitted wouldn't break his game, and then manifestly hasn't touched. Oh well.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

2019-02-19 20:41:38

Oh yes, I agree. In one of my previous comments, I believe I said I admired his game development skills. That is certainly a task I have not undertaken at this point. While questioning his choices, let's not forget the fact that he has made some pretty damn good games. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and perhaps something he might want to examine within himself is his ability to handle suggestions and the fact that just because he made something doesn't mean it is perfect with no room for improvement.

2019-02-20 20:06:28

hey lets all gather and build a game like similor jonra
coding shouldnt be that difficult
i can play with the sounds
and if you really want a storry, fiew writers
as a hobby we can really do taht sort of thing, i'm not much a storry guy but evin a small game taht lets you create creatures and moves works
as i said, find a programmers and i can give you a hand
who knows maybe this post starts somethings,

2019-02-21 14:18:37

@286, that's what I've called in the main thread of Manamon.