2018-11-05 02:15:43 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2018-11-05 02:24:33)

funny, just funny that there are two voices, out of a database of 75k users who are disagreeing in such a blatant and unjustified way, I am sorry for what you apparently had to suffer in your childhood or something.. you cannot please everyone, and not everyone can please you as well. So live and learn, or just live but let others live. Or go start your own forum and show us a stellar, brilliant effort of how things are done and overthrow it all, be free and happy but respect the happiness and freedom of others. Is that so hard to understand? If you get banned I would never see that as a sign of oh, look at the hypocrite mod team, the prophecy on that relatively small, unknown blog was true, oh, the world is gonna end, we were right, we were! damn! right. Never will i ever, as much as you try to force me, see it that way. Why? re read what you just have, and if you disagree, then fine, I don't care either, but you are solely the only one that is making it look that way. How would I see it right now? Four words: a breath, at last. 
Oh and those weasel words..

Here's the thing. I don't give a damn who you are, or what you are, or whether your a volunteer moderator or whether your a moderator who's paid 100 trillion dollars per minute.

then, why should we give, a damn about all of this blah blah blah? or  even about you. i for one don't, and what are you going to do about it?

With this, I have no more to say.

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2018-11-05 02:24:50

Right, @Jayde, here’s your chance.
Prove to this community that you’re not completely unbiased and won’t turn a blind eye just because something insulting is aimed at someone you disagree with.

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2018-11-05 02:36:45

right, i'm drunk, i've had a fantastic italian meal tonight. so yes i'm happy. so here's what i want to say to healing the forum. woof woof to everyone! good night smile

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2018-11-05 04:39:12

Guys, I understand feelings are skyrocketing right now and you're angry at Jade. However, I implore you, please just give the mods a chance to catch their breath. The only way we can do that is wait. I say instead of fighting them, we need to give them at least a month or two to get things straitened out, then if they end up not doing anything again we come back and talk to them about it. This is all I ask, just give the mods one month. Fighting is only going to make this mess worse. I'm pretty much begging you at this point.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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2018-11-05 04:56:04 (edited by Jaseoffire 2018-11-05 05:03:35)

Right. Now that I've read this entire post, waited for and read through the replies from interested parties, and thought about it a while, I think all in all, this is a decent post. As has been stated so much, you won't be able to please everyone, but you've managed to get everyone's attention in a way that brings interest in bringing us all together again. As for the descenters, (my apologies as I can't think of the right word now) their issue seems to revolve around a lack of trust and raise questions as to whether or not you will be able to follow through on your words. (correct me if I have that wrong.) I guess really all I can say there is fair enough. If you don't feel that you can trust the Mods, I can understand that. That being said, there are two things that will happen, either the Mods will make good on their promises here, or they won't. To fulfill this entire plan, it will probably take several weeks to a few months. Perhaps checking in with this post and seeing where the Mods are every like couple of weeks or so would hold them accountable. Likewise, it would be cool for the Mods to give us like weekly updates or something like that. I don't know how viable that would be (especially during dead times where nothing can really be accomplished), but it would go a long way in restoring trust, and allow people to keep up to date on how the reforms are going. Time tends to change minds, and turn a lot of raw emotions into reasonable thoughts. Hopefully having something predictable would clear a lot of the confusion and fear that has plagued everyone for so long these past couple of days. Patience as well would help. I think everyone should realize that this is going to take a while. A couple of months may not seem like a long time, but by internet standards, that's like years worth of work. The internet has a tendancy to move quickly, but we will have to work on a slow clock so that we can make as few mistakes as possible going forward. It is very important that this be done right in order to provide a forum that as much of the community as possible can be happy with contributing to. Again, you won't be able to please everyone, but if we can make a lot of people happy to be here again, I think that would be a victory.
(edit) I forgot to ask, but can we make this topic sticky? I think that the report is important enough to deserve such treatment. Plus, it would give Jayde a chance to learn how to use one of the cooler things that Mods can do with topics in my opinion. I guess it isn't much, but it's still a good feature. Plus, what would be cool is to sticky this topic, then if a new version comes out for the members to analyze and discuss, that one could be stickied, and this one unstuck.

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2018-11-05 05:52:45

@Ethin:  for the love of god, man, cool it already.  The fight is over.  Repeatedly antagonizing Jade will only make you look worse.
Have you considered that your writing is full of just as much, if not more arrogance than his is?  You also tend to write painfully long, inflammatory posts pretty regularly.
I know you might feel pretty cool tossing around accusations left and right, but at risk of receiving a moderation warning, it's not cool at all.  It just looks childish.  Step off your high horse, lead him or her back to the stables, and take a few deep breaths. 

Anyway: @1: Thumbs up.  Well said!

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2018-11-05 06:04:26

@aaron77 I'm sorry man, but I gotta tell you to chill a little bit too. Ethin doesn't taus around insults because he thinks it's cool, he's just angry about the current situation. I think he knows he's gotta step off a little bit, but he has a hard time doing that with something he feels so strongly about.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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2018-11-05 11:51:18

....I don't remember posting in this topic but eh I slept since this was created.

So, my thoughts.

1. I like regular updates. Even if it's just 'We're discussing X Y Z, here's what mods A B C and D are saying and mods X Y Z counter arguing' with quotes would go a long, long away. It'd also enable the community to follow along, as said before.

I get both sides of the not trusting. I've a sneaking hunch that some mods distrust the community as much as the community distrust the mods. Which if true...isn't helpful at all really...I'd argue those mods need to find ways to restore that trust in the community.

If in doubt, chocolate and coffee. Enough said.

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2018-11-05 16:49:59

Great post, Jade. I think I'm just reiterating everyone else here when I say that despite what has gone on over the past week, I can't help but construe this as an honest to God attempt to restore the peace in a diplomatic, fair, and non power hungry way. I don't care what your past actions have been, whether I agree or disagree has been said elsewhere. I personally view this post as positive and with positive intentions.
Honestly, I think the reason most of us are taking this view, me in particular because I don't know what they're thinking, is that yeah. At one point or another, enough has to be enough. Everyone knows I am in full support of disputing til the job is done, saying everything you need to say without being told to shut up. Even I know, however, that at one point or another, there is... a finish line. See Ethin, if someone had told you to shut up or quit the bickering or whatever in the other topic, before things had been resolved, you can count on the fact that I'd have been like "uh uh... no! Let him speak his piece!" However... this is different. It's overkill. It's like one country raising a white flag after a long drawn out bloody war, and the other screaming back... "No! We want more! More more more! Moooooooooore!" You've spoken your issues in those other topics with both the moderation and Jade himself. Jade's not telling you they're invalid and condescending, he's literally sinking down to his knees and going "Okay. I fucked up majorly. We all did. Now can we please do something?" Except going beyond that. He's literally offering up solutions. Can't we all at one point just say "sure man, I'll work with you, let's do this!"

Twitter: stevo399
Website: stevend.net
Have a nice day!

2018-11-05 17:12:03

Thank you for this. I reiterate that you can't please everyone all the time, but I'm definitely of the belief that you think there's a problem, it's a good idea to offer a solution.

Given that Ethin is the only person who seems to have a serious problem with the way I express myself, I'm kinda just going to leave it right there. Liam made a joke about the fact that I am more flowery than the Portland gardens, and I just took that as a lighthearted poke at the way I express myself. No sense getting angry when I know the intent. I'm not quite so friendly when people put intentions in my mouth, though, so the best thing I can do is just pull back a bit. In future, if someone does have a specific problem with the way I say something, you can bring it to me privately to vent your spleen, or you can bring it up in public. If you do the latter, I only ask that you be gentle. This is a trying time for all of us.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-05 17:50:38

I don't think anyone can disagree with Liam's little quip.   You certainly do have a very... flowery writing style. smile 
In most cases, I think it's a really good thing, because we need somebody that can write concisely and persuasively, despite Ethin's complaints.  That being said, this could pose a serious problem to non-native English speakers. 

I do think a moderation team should speak with a pretty similar voice at all times though.  To that end, I have a suggestion that might work.
Why not have an account that the moderation team shares that's used only for forum business?  Important rule changes, warnings, etc can all be handed out by that particular user.  This way, not only would it help create a disconnect between a moderator (the forum member) and his or her moderator persona.  Internally, you could have a log showing which mod posted what to keep all moderators accountable, but the rest of the community would just see 'the Audiogames.net forum moderation staff,' or something like that.  This would add a bit of consistency to moderator announcements, and as a plus, we'd have a central place where all warnings, bans, etc were stored.  One would only need to look through that user's posts to find information.

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children. Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.
from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9

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2018-11-05 18:41:07

That's funny @post 36 you should mention this, because the other week on list, Sendermen brought this very thing up. It's sort of been referenced since but we haven't had any other word on it, but it seems to be under consideration at the very least.

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2018-11-05 18:48:11

I have to be honest and say I don't like this idea. It's nice to know who's speaking for the admins as opposed to seein gone single admin account.
You shouldn't really need two separate accounts for a forum. I understand having a master admin account, but it's nice to know that Aaron made the decision as Aaron and not having to see that Admin did something and then having to read a post or a log or what not.
Jayde just may have to remember to use less flowers I guess.

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my space bar. Prepare to die!


2018-11-05 19:29:06

I do try and tailor my message to my audience when I'm speaking to a specific person. In general though, I tend toward more professional/official-sounding language. I promise I don't actually talk this way, nor write this way all the time. if the original post in this thread sounded official, professional, perhaps even a bit political, it was meant to. This was a message meant to speak for the current and future of the staff team, and while we aren't being paid for this work, we do take it seriously. This means that, although it's not officially a professional setting, I, at least, am still treating it as such, to some extent at least. Thus the detailed language use.

Check out my Manamon text walkthrough at the following link:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1

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2018-11-05 19:48:15

Agreed, I've always been told that if you are doing something that's public in nature, it's good to speak/write professionally depending on the situation. As it stands it's rather civil here for the minute so when I'm writing here, I sort of switch back and fourth.
When it comes down to it, I would rather just have this account, it makes more sense, plus makes us as mods more accountable for our actions.

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2018-11-06 12:00:40

what you could do though after you've done your moderations is to log it in a closed thread and pin that thread up at the top of forum feedback. but in every forum where it has the faq pinned you can have a link to said thread so people can get access to it wherever they are.

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2018-11-06 18:45:26

That's the idea actually.

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2018-11-07 13:42:10

I suggest we have a need for a policy statement on sexual harassment.
Looking backwards briefly:
We have missed something very fundamental.  In short, confidentiality.
In any grievance procedure, neither the victim or the alleged perpetrator of sexual harassment should be named at all. 
Looking forward now:
The aim of a policy on harassment is to promote a safer place on-line and a place where all forum members are encouraged to respect each members dignity, privacy, and equality.
The policy could include advice on staying safe on-line, and advice on handling abusive behaviour.
The policy Should include the support and assistance that can be expected by a victim of harassment. 
If done well, such a policy could be a template of good practice and help developers of on-line games. 
Also, such a policy, shows our community is serious about safety on-line.
thirdly, it is another step in our healing process.
Realistically, in a small organisation, there will be limits to the support that can be offered.
The support may or may not include any of the following:
advice, referrals, a grievance procedure, a settlement by arbitration, or assistance with police reporting.
It should be clear, in any arbitration or grievance procedure, whether this is strictly limited to forum usage or wider issues.
At the current time, with staff numbers and pressures, it is quite possible that only forum related incidents can be considered in a grievance.
However, this does not mean advice on wider issues is ignored.
If there is a grievance procedure at all, the policy should include the steps that staff will take when receiving a grievance.
My main point in all this, is that confidentiality is a vital corner stone in any grievance or arbitration procedure. 
There are many examples of policies on bullying, harassment, and victimization out there to look at. 
Here is a cut and paste, that happens to come from employment law in South Africa
a) Allegations of sexual harassment will be dealt with seriously, expeditiously, sensitively and confidentially.
b) Individuals will be protected against victimisation, retaliation for lodging grievances and from false accusations
c) Care should be taken during any investigation of a grievance of sexual harassment that the aggrieved person is not disadvantaged, and that the position of other parties is not prejudiced if the grievance is found to be unwarranted.
Just for clarity, I have substituted the word individuals for staff, but the code of conduct makes it plain that customers are included in law for the purposes of grievances.
Am I making a legal point here? No, it is up to the owners of this site and other gaming sites to decide what their statutory duties are in their own country.
My point, regardless of the law, is that we have a duty of care. 
I hope the principle of confidentiality is accepted, regardless of my sources or of any personal opinions that might leak through.
Do we want transparency?  Yes, transparency of rules. and Transparency of procedures.
But in no way should we get a public hearing of a grievance.
So what should we get?
Hopefully: Protection of the victim of harassment, protection of the victim of false accusations, protection of any witnesses, protection of third parties, and protection of staff involved in the grievance procedure.
Quoting post 1:
"no single person should engage in this sort of investigation without external validation from at least one other member of the team, and this self-check will ensure that this sort of thing will never happen again."
Fair point, but please add confidentiality.
Looking backwards again, perhaps unwisely:
The individuals mentioned in post 1 including staff members were not protected by what happened.
I cannot imagine what each of them has gone through.
It is wholly possible that all parties acted in their search for justice.  At the very least we owe all parties the benefit of the doubt. 
Do I want to skip the details?  Yes please, my opinion on the merits is quite irrelevant. 
My point is that it should not have been public. 
I apologise if I have raked over the ashes.  I sincerely hope it will not reignite the past, when the parties concerned will most likely want peace and closure.
Yes, it was a huge mistake, but it is time for learning and time for compassion, for all concerned.
To cite some wise words, again  from post 1:
We must be better, and we will be. it is as simple as that.

Try my free games and software at www.rockywaters.co.uk

Thumbs up +1

2018-11-08 18:04:39

Let's just say that the drafts of the new rules and the discussion around them is a good step. Yes, the fact that we have loss staff does worry me, and it will be awhile before the trust in the staff is built back up to where it was, if ever. As hard as it maybe, keeping things as open as possible will be and is helpful. Not only is the forum going through questionable times, but it is a time for learning hard lessons. So let’s make the best of this and hopefully we will have something better in the future.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
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