with you all the way, but i don't want to be band, i don't no why areyen wants me scrapped, oh my, i am absolutely worried. Sometimes when i'm doing something i tend to have a guilty feeling on my face.
Oh dear god. My email assoaiated with this account is very, very, very old. As in, I haven't used it in seven years or so. Let me go tweak that.
#28 (edited by Ethin 2018-10-29 19:09:20)
Modifying the forums functionality and adding new plugins is possible (re: the private message system is a plugin). However, I am unable to find any form of guide on how to do that. The only alternative would be to switch the forum software (forums such as PHPBB, FluxBB, BBPress, and so on allow easy migration from PunBB). And before anyone wines about the accessibility of those forum packages, do remember that 99.999 percent of forum packages are theme-able, which makes it possible to practically replicate the layout of this site using a totally different forum package. So, no, I do not consider the accessibility of a forum package as an influence on its usability. If somethings theme or skin can be modified, then accessibility of that package no longer becomes a valid excuse. (My personal opinion would be to go for Discourse -- it makes migrating all the posts and users over nearly impossible but what's neat is that it allows for HTML, markdown, and text posts, among many other things, including linking twitter for single-sign on, among many others.)
Okay, email updated.
And heck, my system may not be possible to set up on this forum in a code sense, but it may be possible to administrate anyway. It'd be a lot of potential work, however. This is why I have everything dated though.
Example: If Bill starts flaming someone, he gets a warning (2 points), it gets noted in that closed forum. Unless further bad behaviour occurs, we just let it go. Everything is dated, so if he does behave badly again, we have a point of reference. As I say, would be a lot of work.
But as I also may have said, I think this is where we start getting into what exactly is expected of us vs. what is reasonable for us to perform. It's not easy.
I am in favor of giving reasons for warnings and bans. yes, that's extra work the mods have to do, but it will also keep everyone accountable. it will also give them reasons to check each other's work, as it were. For example, say one mod gives a warning, it should be the job of any other mod to post the reasons for giving such a warning in the topic. That way, if there's any discrepancy, it can be dealt with a bit more easily.
I have a couple of misgivings about the red light/green light idea Jade has, although I don't think it's a bad idea in principle. My main concerns are that those whose first language isn't English might have a hard time understanding a whole long complicated spiel when they sign up, ditto with young teenagers. That's why I think it would be great if it really is possible to implement a number of warnings in the person's profile, at the very least. On one forum I frequent, it shows that information right above the posts you make. You can't see it on other people's posts, at least I don't think you can, but I'll have a look at that later, I haven't paid attention to it in quite awhile. It shows right below the user's displayed location info on that particular website, so that would be good if, maybe, it could show up above or below user karma in this case.
My other concern about the red light/green light system is that it might be too much for the mods to consistently implement. If I'm not mistaken, we have something like 4 or 5 mods now, right? That seems like an awful lot of work for them to take on, so we would definitely need to make sure they were up to the job of committing to such a task, and had something to fall back on in the case that they can no longer keep up with it.
I also don't think it's a particularly good idea to have a head moderator. Sure, it looks official, but it isn't necessary. I like the idea that all mods are equal, and that if you, as a forum user, have a concern, there isn't pressure to go up the chain of command should you have an issue.
sounds interesting. Do you think it'll be good to put it to the test, and if it's not satisfactory then forget about it and think of something else?
Ethin, skinning a forum takes CSS and HTML knowledge however. It's not a trivial task at all. Also, for thos on about warnings on profiles, I have a hunch you're thinking either of IPB or vBulletin, both of which can have said feature. It isn't, as far as I have found, available for punbb.
Yes, it IS possible to skin other forums to be acessible (my jcink one is) but again, it's a lot of work to make everythhing fit together and depending on what you go with, a PITA to import the skin and set it as the default. Because by default, most forum softwares don't come with 100% accessible skins out of the box, you have to go to pull them off the forum to tweak them, reupload them, then set them as default. So before this idea of oh convert the forum to X Y or Z gets going, consider how much work it'd take to make, let's saym phpbb3 accessible. Or Tapatalk, or jcink (I'm cheating a little as there are acessible skins made by great people for that forum software), or mybb or any other forum.
As it stands, I think getting a new forum would have to definitely involve Richard and Sendermen, who have admitted that they are very busy.
@32, it does take a lot of work, but its possible, which is why I'm saying that people shouldn't complain about a forum package being inaccessible. Its not an excuse. Its like saying that the layout of your house makes it un-navigable; that won't pass the test either, since while it may cost a lot of money to remodel your house to make it how you like it, and a lot of time, its doable, provided you have the resources.
Another alternative to using a closed topic is to set up an archival system. But that's extremely complicated and probably not something the mods can do.
Ethin, no, I'm saying out of the box without any tweaks or changes,the big forum software isn't easily navigable.PunBB doesn't have as many extensions as I'd personally like. If, for argument'ssake, Richard and Sender were to do a new forum they'd have to do all the CSS and HTML work themselvs to get it how they like it, before anyone else even joined. Don't get me wrong, yeah, you can make forum software useable with skinning and themes, but.....not everyone knows how to do that or is willling to dig into CSS.
@Jade: I've thought more about your idea and it's coming off as ball and strike calls to me. What would constitute a 'partial personal attack' for example, where would the line be drawn?
I'm all for the closed topic listing warnings, reasons and a link to an offending post, vBulletin had this on their forums with their user CP. You'd hav a list of infractions, and posts, and such at a glance. Now I'm not saying oh, we neeed a new forum, but I'm saying first check if such a plugin exists for punbb, if it does, great, solves issues. If not.....unfortunately it'll mean doing things by hand on paper and keyboards.
I do think we should think about what is practical at the moment. Which probably means moving forum software would be far too impractical simply because the only ones with the authority to do that, the webmasters, seem to have a lot of work on their plates as is. @35 The specific rules that Jayde gave are a concern for me as well, but as that's only an example outline about coming up with a system, I think it might be a bit beyond the scope of the current discussion. First we need to put the rules into a state where rulings on what we have can be enforced whether that is Jayde's method or another. I think rulings is the first thing to focus on as it is the easiest one to resolve. Actual rules reform risks taking months to work on. There's no way to completely remove the human element, otherwise, I'd suggest writing an algorithm to take the place of the mods, and if you've seen how YouTube's algorithmic moderation is going, I'd not recommend we do that. That will inevitably mean that we will have to trust the mods at least somewhat here, but if we have a better way of holding them accountable for their rulings, that would be an improvement. Having a continuum of some sort is a good first step to at least reduce the amount of arbitrary-looking rulings. The closed topic would give the mods a way to prove accumulative behavior. Hope that makes sense.
#37 (edited by Ethin 2018-10-29 22:29:10)
A closed topic like that would also prevent a state of Caveat emptor, which is (in shopping and economics) the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made. The term arises from the fact that buyers typically have less information about the good or service they are purchasing, while the seller has more information. That, in turn, results in a state of information asymmetry. The forum-use of the term is similar; we've been in a state of caveat emptor for a while now: what and why the moderators have done things has been mostly hidden from us, the members; only the moderators and administrators know that information. This topic would somewhat alleviate that issue, because the mods would be required (I'm guessing) to post reasons as to why a ban or warning was issued in a single, consolidated place, as well as in the original topic for its readers, and therefore it would make bans and warnings less arguable.
We're of slightly different minds on how much that is necessary, Ethin, but you have a point there. I'm not opposed to a closed topic. I'm not at all worried about explaining myself, because if I'm acting, I've got a reason I can call upon.
Ball and strike calls. Okay. I can field it (ha ha, see what I did there?).
Here's an example of a partial personal attack (not targeting anyone here, this is just an example of what I mean):
"You really need to cut out this childish whining. We're all getting tired of it. It's making you look bad and you really ought to know better. People like you are the reason why everyone else thinks we're always so entitled."
This is more character indictment than straight-up flaming. it's hostile, it may or may not have truth in it, but it's very likely to upset someone.
Now, here's an example of a strong personal attack:
"Billy, your games suck. All you ever do is borrow code from other people and pretend it's yours. You should rot in hell you stupid code-stealing jerk. I'm going to tell all my friends how stupid you are and we're all going to laugh at you. God what a loser lol."
Very personally targeted, totally nonconstructive, full of name-calling. I could've been way, way worse here, but reined myself in. Heh.
But there will always be some human element to this. This is why there isn't just one mod making judgment calls. If there's some wiggle room, there will probably be at least a brief chatter before anything happens, particularly if what to do is truly not clear.
My idea is something I still like the overall look of, but I'm well aware it can't be coded and may not be able to be put in place anytime soon. I was simply responding to a need for more clarification by providing it.
I like the idea personally, i'm just a little concerned about it's complexity for younger members, and getting it implemented.
@Jayde That's a pretty good idea you have, I think for the most part it could work out great. Like people said, it may be difficult for non-English speakers and younger teens to understand, but whatever you guys want to do is probably gonna work out either way.
@Ethin Slightly off topic now because post 9/10 are farther back, but I think post 10 might have been a joke and I saw nothing wrong with post 9.
I think until such time as such a aystem is implemented, if it can be, we still need a basic way to track warnings and the closed topic way would be the easiest on that front at least for now.
Not only that but also a re-write of the rules, and we need to figure out if that's possible to edit through the admin panel, plus discuss them.
Because of the fact that you're an administrator and not just a moderator, I do believe you should be able to change the rules. I had a PunBB forum myself at one point.
Yes, you can change the rules page.
well, the system that has been mentioned also gets a vote from me. I would probably add a bit more features to the report link in a poll style, just like every big company does, I think it does facilitate the work for the system in question. The more votes a post gets to say, to be an insult, the more it counts towards a warning being accepted or whatever... I think a community should also help to moderate itself somewhat
And yes, only one account per IP address, and longevity will allow those users to weigh in their votes or do certain tasks, including reporting. Maybe the karma system can actually count towards that as well.
Also we have been having some concerns about IP spoofing going on, however the tool used to track IPS is pretty querky at best.
I'd recommend having a tech department for things like that, i.e., someone who may not necessarily be mod and admin material but can check IP addresses and keep themselves stocked with the appropriate tools to do the job. What do you guys think of the idea?
I know Aprone, Sebby, and myself have quite a bit of tech knowledge. We think the issue might be the tool itself is buggy. Or, it might be coincidence that certain IPS are the same, as they do change over time or they are reknewed.
@47, IP addresses that are renewed usually don't change; at least, the public, internet-facing ones don't. Those usually change under the following scenarios:
1: someone moves to a different ISP, or an entirely different location.
2: Someone spoofs their IP.
3: Someone is under a VPN
A good idea would be to geo-locate the IP address and get ISP data from that. If you know the most common VPNs and cloud server providers, you can pretty easily figure out who's coming from a vPN, who's spoofing, and who's actually legit.