2018-10-19 09:06:28

wow, ok it's ok if someone upsets you, but why make it so that the people they support turn round and ok, we're leaving. We've better friends than you. It's a bad idea taking the support away from various people for if anything went wrong, they'd find it hard to over come it but with friends with them, at least they'll feel more relaxed and to even have some one giving them a massive hug breaks problems up in a good way. But as regards to your posts orko, it is not nice to upset anyone. For if i was to upset anyone, i'd insure it won't happen again and proove it to them in every way

2018-10-19 09:35:22

I would like to explain a big difference between a child and an adult.  When a child sees or hears something, they ask them self "Am I offended?".  If they are then they act on it, and generally make the world around them a much more insufferable place to be.  An adult, on the other hand, will ask "Should I be offended?".  If the answer is no, despite whether or not they Are offended, they keep it to them self.  It is their own set of issues to deal with, and it is not anyone else's problem.  Somewhere along the way, a defect started producing physically grown adults still running the old child software.

Just my thoughts.  smile

P.S.

While we tend to not moderate threads where we ourselves are already mixed up in some drama (instead asking another mod to step in to be a more neutral 3rd party), I will ask you Ethin to avoid personal insults.  I have no idea whether or not another mod will say anything official about it (when another one reads through this thread), so for now consider this just one forum member making a polite request of another member.  big_smile

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2018-10-19 10:01:32

My thoughts:

1. Nothing wrong, IMO with Aprone's comments.

2. How do we know it was Aprone who posted them, assuming he didn't admit to posting them. It could wel have been somebody else using Aprone's name.

3.

Warning: Grumpy post above
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2018-10-19 14:10:45

@JaceK Hardly likely, considering post 27 how he admitted he wasn't going to mod a thread concerning his actions. Plus, he already explained the problem of getting easily butthurt and then spreading the misery, so it's easy to put two and two together.

2018-10-19 14:40:14

Ah, those people who it seems only come to a "drama topic" to add to the drama by reprimanding the wretched lesser scum or who respond harshly to someone they don't agree with by letting them know they don't agree with them responding to someone they don't agree with in a harsh manner, and then in cases call for forum reform.
Clearly you ain't interested in helping that happen, just saying.

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2018-10-19 15:03:32

MODERATION:

Sigh.

I came here in response to a report to spank Ethin for just generally stirring things up, but in particular calling Orco--who I think we can all agree has been a pest over the years--a "hypocritical bastard". Personally I take being called a bastard quite casually, almost like a humorous compliment, but it's clear that the context here is much more hostile. So, Ethin, take this is a warning not to cross the personal insult rule please. You can express your disagreements just fine without insults.

But to be honest, I'm looking at this thread, as well as the recent messages on other recent threads, and the few comments that reflect sadly how low the bar of civility has fallen, and I am wondering what a few days away from moderation does. I am wondering whether this forum was intended to be, in 2018, a place of respectful, civil discussion where people are, on the whole, motivated to be nice to one another, or a flame pit where people just jab at each other because they can, and I'm wondering whether I'd like to continue moderating such a forum, and whether changing the way things are run would really help to make it a better place.

Please, for this thread at least, can we all try very hard to be nice to each other? All contributions are free and there really are no prizes for behaving like a domineering tyrant, just because you can, so just be nice. All you have to do is think for a whole five seconds before you post, and question whether or not your post adds actual value to the discussion, or whether it's simply intended as a cowardly jab at someone you don't like. That's it. There's nothing more to it.

Because if people won't be nice to each other, then the forum is at the fork in the road. Either it descends into a flame pit, like so many other blindness forums, and then eventually goes under because nobody cares any more and everybody who is everybody leaves.

Or, alternatively, a dictator steps in to bring peace and order. And you know how it is with dictatorships.

The choice is yours.

Just myself, as usual.

2018-10-19 15:10:57

I'll second that. It's been insane around here for the past 2 or 3 days, hopefully we can calm the waters, and things will return to some sense of normalcy.

2018-10-19 15:16:17

How on earth did we get to this point? Oh, and one more question, since this is actually more relevant on this thread than on the other, does anyone know how or what to do about the ghost versions of this topic, oh, and why it's throwing an SQL error?

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2018-10-19 16:55:42

@31 I couldn't have said this better myself. Sadly, i think some people just don't practice being civil/respectful enough so they just say what's on their mind, unfiltered. Unfiltered minds can sometimes say impulsive things but sadly I think we're in a society, or pushing to have a society, where such behavior is the norm. You can say whatever you want to and get away with it because nobody will take the time to specifically target you, and even if they did, it's over the Internet here so that imposes limitations on what they could actually do if they did single you out. Then other people who try to keep level heads end up trying to sort the mess out. I feel bad for the mods, I have for a while now, but especially right now. I wouldn't be surprised if several resigned just to move on with their lives.

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2018-10-19 17:55:37

I haven't deliberately tried aiming for that kind of society. But when I get fed up with someone or something I tend to just lash out like I did earlier in this topic, because no one else is willing to say what they really want to say and it seems like I'm the only one who's willing to say it. That was confusing, but I hope it makes sense.

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2018-10-19 18:37:14

"Either it descends into a flame pit, like so many other blindness
forums, and then eventually goes under because nobody cares any more and everybody who is everybody leaves."

"Or, alternatively, a dictator steps in to bring peace and order."
... Or, I don't know? The two topics (I'm not counting any recurring threads since honestly I believe those were accidents) die out, blow over, and we return to the civility we had before. I'm a regular visitor to this forum - and though I've seen a couple closed topics in new releases over the past few weeks, there's not much other drama and or flaming I've seen go on in other topics aside from those two or 3 started in the last week. Of course this is just my observation - I'm not a mod, therefore it's not my duty nor inclination to visit and read every topic that appears. Some people here though are literally talking about this forum as though it's descended down the irreversible hellhole of anarchy.
@Post 31, while I can sympathize with your feelings in regards to the subject, I'm slightly bothered due to your wording and a couple remarks made. Maybe I'm misconstruing your points - I had no plans to attack you for them anyway, but even now in addition I won't form a close-minded conclusion. Just a speculation.

sebby wrote:

But to be honest, I'm looking at this thread, as well as the recent messages on other recent threads, and the few comments that reflect sadly how low the
bar of civility has fallen, and I am wondering what a few days away from moderation does. I am wondering whether this forum was intended to be, in 2018,
a place of respectful, civil discussion where people are, on the whole, motivated to be nice to one another, or a flame pit where people just jab at each
other because they can, and I'm wondering whether I'd like to continue moderating such a forum, and whether changing the way things are run would really
help to make it a better place.

The bar of civility... has not fallen because moderators disappeared for a few days (they didn't, I think Aaron's been here through it all especially). Circumstances occurred which brought about controversy, as well as ones that attacked someone. Naturally when someone or something is attacked, those in support will defend. When a controversial story is brought in to the spotlight, such as was the case with the moderation post, a very wide spectrum of differing viewpoints, from many differing personalities will form.
And it's everywhere! Say I joined a celebrity's fan club, only to announce to the participants that the celebrity was a total piece of sh*t. I'd be attacked by many people - some civil and with detailed explanations, other with simple f*ck you and gtfo responses. In this topic, where someone attacked Aprone by dragging drama to the forum, I've surprisingly seen little in the way of just outright, baseless name calling and nastiness. Have I seen attacks? Oh yes. I've also seen hostility. I have not seen some detrimental crossroads between good and evil form over this, or in fact the other topic however.
As for that comment about wondering if changing the way the place is ran would make it a better place, to me that sounds like a hint of resignation to the current situation - possibly dropping the ongoing discussion brought up by the aforementioned blog post? This adds to the extremely pessimistic and close-minded viewpoint brought up in your post - but more prominently in the sentence in post 33, "How on Earth did we get to this point?"
Which reminds me. What point exactly? The emergence of two relatively dramatic topics, of which a few people have attacked and/or brought up points aggressively? We've had far worse throughout the years. This is definitely not some sort of breaking point - perhaps the moderation thing is a lot more serious, but this topic and the flaming/attacking/drama as a hole of the last two topics are not breaking points. This whole "coming to a head", "How have we come to this point!" sentiment is quite frankly extremely mellow dramatic and tends to capitalize highly on a considerably small picture. Know what I did this morning? I posted a topic in off topic, with a question I have, because I know that there are many kind techy people here that will jump to my assistance if they can. If you're thinking about resigning I can respect that, and of course it would be sad to see a kind, well meaning, and relatively just moderator leave the team. However I also believe your leaving would present the idea that your heart wasn't really in it in the first place - sure there are attacks and offensive comments made, but there are just as many well meaning members here that do their best to help clean the place up. Not to mention, 1-line insult, malicious trolls with no other aim then to be mean just to be mean are generally rejected real fast by the majority, and quickly dealt with. That in itself should show the kind nature of the majority. I've been in, and had to separate myself from some truly toxic, day destroying cesspits of internet groups - and this most certainly, is not one of them.

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2018-10-19 19:30:58

@36. My apologies. I did not mean that to sound as pesimistic as it did sound. Your right. This by far is not the worst I've seen. This community was and still is probably one of the friendliest places on the internet. That being said, with how much of this is linked to one another, and even though it hasn't derailed yet, it is the beginnings of a good cause derailing in my experience. A lot of what spawned this is important, but if we allow the initial value of the original complaint to become sullied with petty arguments, it won't look all that good, and may become more difficult to resolve. That being said, while I think this topic has been discussed mostly to completion, it is still somewhat linked with the original complaint which is in the process of resolving. I don't know. There's still a lot that is unclear, though.

I have a website now.
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C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
"There, but for the grace of God go I"

2018-10-19 20:57:49

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I am simply going to laugh with the rest here. Just fucking lol.

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2018-10-20 03:04:08

@12. It's 200 now. I couldn't resist. Had to round it up for the sake of neatness. Please God no one make it 201. I won't be able to sleep.

2018-10-20 04:13:30 (edited by aaron77 2018-10-20 04:14:41)

Despite my 600 or so posts, I would still primarily consider myself a lurker on here.  I read the majority of threads on this forum daily, and have for a long time now.
I have definitely noticed the increase in hostilities from a ton of people.
On one hand, the more dispassionate part about me finds this kind of drama exciting;  You never know what's gonna happen next.  On the other,  (and the thing I remind myself about regularly before involving myself in things like this,) this all involves real people.  It's so easy to say random things to troll and fan the flames, but there are a few people here that consider this place a central part of their social interactions, and by introducing toxicity to the environment, those people are pushed away.  We then end up with people who have no stake in the outcome of this little scuffle who will say whatever they want and know they won't suffer consequences from it.  I mean, I could sit here and call Aprone stupid, and I might get a slap on the wrist that doesn't affect me in the slightest, but it will also make people that are here for peaceful conversation want to leave.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you have a problem with people, deal with it off of a public thread.  Not for yourself, or even your target, but for other people that are here to unwind after a busy day or whatever.

 
That being said, I am inclined to agree with everyone else here.  Orko has always maintained a self-righteous attitude that is unpleasant to deal with, considering how hypocritical he can be.  I don't have all of the threads in front of me, but I'd almost be willing to wager that he started as much conflict as Ironcross. 
Also, for those calling Aprone's response immature, keep in mind that Orko practically started that particular exchange.  Yes, it may have lacked taste, but come on, this is the internet.  This kind of thing is what you get on the internet, and I personally found it really amusing.
Finally, @Orko, I'm sorry you were sexually abused as a child.  I can't even begin to imagine what that would have felt like.  That being said, using that to attack Aprone's comment is not the way to garner support from the community.  Did you even consider approaching Aprone privately about it?  You may have gotten more sympathy from him, and possibly even an apology.  Instead, you took it to a forum where you are known for taking offense for the smallest things and lashing out at everyone else as a result.  did you really expect support from the community?
@39: as unpleasant as it was, I hit the thumbs up button, just for you.  Enjoy the sleepless nights that will follow! smile

I'm probably gonna get banned for this, but...

2018-10-20 04:52:59 (edited by defender 2018-10-20 05:13:31)

@35
Actually, I think lots of us want to say what's on our mind, the difference is, we have enough self control to not do that, or at least do it in a more careful manner. And I'm not even that good at it my self, though I'm trying to get better.
But trying to justify or shift blame for your outbursts doesn't make them go away, just like Ironcross admitting constantly that he can't keep his mouth shut to save his life doesn't excuse him blowing up at people he thinks deserve it, when they aren't even as emotionally invested in the topic as he is, because he does nothing to change that behavior.
My point is, words are cheap, and though you've gotten better for sure, every time you lose your cool like that it hurts your rep more than the next guy because of past behavior, and in the end, no one but you is to blame for your actions.

2018-10-20 05:04:17 (edited by Sebby 2018-10-20 05:29:09)

@36: not to discount your point of view as a long-standing member, but actually, no, I personally don't think you appreciate the scope of the problem.

This forum has, in recent times, simply been beset by pointless, baseless carping of which the recent posts had been good examples. If that is the type of forum you feel you want to inhabit or tolerate, that's fair enough, but I am saying that it isn't what I think this forum is capable of, nor the kind of forum I want to continue to help reform and run. I know this because I was on this forum doing active mod duties, not three years ago, where the nonsense we've seen in the past year and a half or so was, if it ever happened at all, usually restricted to very extreme differences in opinion or misunderstanding, rather than completely meritless paint-balling. The quality of the reports we've received in the last year or so especially have usually been of a kind calculated to inspire resignation and sadness, and yes if that sounds like pessimism, I claim my prize. Even before I was a mod, looking in from the outside, I can honestly say that I was even eager to receive help from the mod team when things went off the rails, which they rarely did, and I took up the offer glad to help when I was offered the chance to be on the team. This, I am sure, was only possible because people and the mods all held one another in high regard and mutual respect. No, I never expected moderation to be easy, but I also never expected to see quite so much wilful animus either, and I've been frankly surprised by how much bad behaviour has been brushed under the carpet as mere caper or open expression of opinions or free speech.

To use your example, calling someone (even a popular someone) a piece of shit isn't the behaviour I think we ought to except from forum members. Maybe you can call their work, or their talents, or whatever, a piece of shit, taking care of course to remind people that this is your own opinion, but not that someone directly is a piece of shit. Of course there is scope and leeway for what's permissible, for instance calling someone a piece of shit because they hold what you believe are irredeemable views might be understood as a criticism of their qualities as a human being, but in no case is simple out-and-out (and, it goes without saying, very un-funny) mud-slinging something that we'd normally tolerate.

Of course there are disagreements, and of course there are controversies. And yes, some people will come on with the aim of stirring shit up. You've been on this forum longer than I have, so I'm sure you've seen them. What hasn't been apparent, I'm quite sure, is simply the level of hostility that has been tolerated and deemed acceptable. I can only speculate as to the reasons, but I think a combination of political changes and general partisanship, as well as, in no small part, the paralysis of the moderation team, which I do believe is the main reason this forum is distinct from all the other open-air forums we've seen descend into chaos, are the chief problems. We need as mods to decide what vision we want for the forum, and bring it about. Don't get me wrong, even now it is still not an unfriendly place. It gives me great pleasure to see all the new topics spring up, new members appear, and yes, controversial topics like this one eventually die down, but that does not change the fact that we are at the point of deciding what kind of behaviour we ought to tolerate, and there is clearly a push for the style of discussion that is tolerated elsewhere going on. Maybe that's just the way it is, and as I said, if that's the turn we're taking, I don't want to stick around as a mod. I'd like the bar of civility to rise to the point it has been in the past, at least, so that we can get back to discussing the issues, and not the members.

Hope this clarifies.

Just myself, as usual.

2018-10-21 04:33:25

Oh no, I completely agree that such negativity aught to be regulated - yes, flaming and pointless insulting and attacking of others' character is toxic, and most definitely should be moderated. It's in the rules of almost every forum out there, and it's enforced in those places as it should be here. However I can't agree that I haven't appreciated the full scope of the issue - I have seen a lot of these things. From multi topic feuds between 2 or more members, to stolen code and subsequent copying and the heated flame wars, to character attacks stemming from something so simple as not liking a screen reader or programming language! Gah! And finally, even to seemingly pointless arguments spanning 200 posts into topics derailed from about post 15! However yes, this is the type of forum I choose to post on. I read a topic from back in 2005 where someone I don't know, created a game or said they would be making one and pissed a lot of people off due to something or other, so they started attacking him. Then you had the people defending him and condemning the attackers, and so on. While I believe there has undeniably been an uptick in negativity with especially the stolen code of late, I can't view this forum with a global warming prospective. People come, people go. What's unchanging with human nature is that generally, you get a big group of people with enough people in it and their thought processes/the way they react start becoming very similar, as a hole, to other huge groups. This place is not the exception. There are definitely the bad apples of today's audiogames.net, just as there were the bad apples of 2005, 2010, 2015, so on.
You are especially right on one thing though: perhaps decisions do need to be made about what is tolerated in the rules and what is enforced most by the admin team. The type of people that hang around here of late are not getting worse than before; as stated earlier, they're just today's bad apples. Problem is, if no one is properly taking out and handling those rotting apples, eventually they're going to liquefy and ruin the bunch. Other blind forums didn't fail because of some huge serge of the demon army of hell deciding to suddenly come out and attack, they fell because their moderators no longer had the heart to do what they'd always done and so gradually, they slackened the rules until inevitably the rotten apples they left in the basket completely spoiled and ruined all the good ones.

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2018-10-21 09:10:28

I agree with the dwarfer. Maybe there's a slight increase of negativity  arisen recently, but it's not as big as people think it is. I mean, for gods sake, I've grown up a bit so that should've solved a lot of the old negativity. big_smile

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2018-10-21 13:43:47 (edited by flackers 2018-10-21 13:53:22)

I've only been on here a year or so, but I doubt the negative behaviour is a new thing. It's more likely due to the way we tend to remember the things in the past that made us feel good, then compare those memories against the harsh reality of today, and so things can appear to be in decline. All the forums I've hung around have had this kind of behaviour to a greater or lesser degree. They always tend to have a core of regulars who hang around for years keeping the place going as the occasional posters come and go. A percentage of this group do it because they're the obsessive types, I'm one of them, and we tend to also be a bit uncompromising. We have to try extra hard to see the other point of view. Add to that cliques, tribalism, attention-seeking trouble-makers, and the fact that no one can punch us in the face if we insult them , and you can see how these environments aren't exactly idylls of peace and harmony. It's also the only place where you have people of all ages and backgrounds mixing together. Nowhere outside of the web would you get a sixty-year-old man having a heated discussion with a twelve-year-old kid because neither knows how old the other is. But we could adapt. In popular usage terms, this strange environment is less than twenty years old, so no one has yet even grew to full adulthood knowing nothing else.