2018-07-04 12:01:45

Since most of you want me to go, I am asking you this question in the hope that you will think. Which is worse, to allow someone to let go, or to force someone to live when that person just wants to be free? If my opinion matters, it is worse to trap someone in a painful situation. Ending everything isn't selfish. What is selfish is driving someone to make that decision.

2018-07-04 13:48:36

Hmmm, where did you get the impression anyone wants you to go anywhere?

Anything you do or do not do is up to you, not up to me, or anyone else on this forum, indeed might I suggest that a forum  for discussing computer games and having fun is probably not the sort of place to discuss such weighty matters anyway, much less to try and discuss responsibility for a decision which is uniquely yours.

If you want to talk about how your feeling, or better still just relax, play some games and have some fun in life we're here, anything else is beyond either our responsibility or our skills.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-07-04 15:11:13 (edited by flackers 2018-07-04 15:15:33)

What you need to do if you're really serious about this is first consider getting help. Suicide is the ultimate irreversible act. You never get to live to regret it, and it's a mistake you can't learn from. There are drugs that stop people from thinking these sorts of thoughts, and that's got to be a better alternative because at least in five or ten years when things might not seem so bad, you have the option to sort your life out. These drugs may not be ideal, and it might not be easy to get back to normal, but it has to be a damn sight easier than coming back from the grave. And the other thing is, you have to give the people who have respect for you a reason to want you around, a reason to like you, you can't just use their kindness to emotionally blackmail them. No relationship can be based on one person feeling sorry for another. Relationships are give and take, so you have to give something back, and not just take emotional support. I honestly think you need to take everything less seriously, yourself included. This might not be so easy in your current state of mind, and that's where the help comes in.

2018-07-04 20:01:58

see, here's the thing, I don't know whether you're serious or not, you post these serious topics only after trolling the forum for months, so what am I, and others supposed to think. On one hand, if someone is in need, I would want to help, on the other, if they are taking advantage of this, or any other public venue for attention seeking purposes, then really, I have no time for them. SO what is it

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2018-07-04 20:17:00

I would recommend visiting this site:
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Talk to someone.

2018-07-05 07:43:58

Without more details, I have no idea about if this is a serious question, or just a random question throwing out to the public. I don't get the point of the question, and don't see how it can fit in this forum, even in the off topic room. How should our opinions on this madder? We can't make any difference anyway.
So if you expect more serious answers, then please give us some more details. smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2018-07-05 10:15:40

i wonder how much  usernames this guy has here

2018-07-05 10:29:40

I for one sure as hell want you to leave, the forum that is, not necessarily this mortal plane.

2018-07-05 12:37:38

why do you guys want him gong anyway?

2018-07-05 13:19:42

i think everyone here is lucky because you are not a mod

2018-07-05 14:00:18

seriously loooool. If he was, even for a day, our population would go from 35K to probably somewhere in the hundreds, if not double digits. I want this person to leave, hell there are other people I wish would leave too, the fuck is wrong with saying that? Oh, and @Orko, you're definitely on that list of people I want to leave. Big time. Thumbs up if you agree with me on that.

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2018-07-05 16:03:52

Moderation!

@Defender, usually saying you want someone to leave would be fine, but I'm giving you a mod warning this time since this is obviously a sensitive topic, try and treat people's feelings respectfully here, remember we don't know who this person is or what they're life is like or what circumstances they're in so throwing around untoward remarks isn't exactly clever!


To Orko, AlirezaNosrati and Iron cross, can you please all take your spat outside, we don't want it on this forum.
Honestly the "I want you to leave", "No I want you to leave!", "no if I were a moderator you'd all leave" makes you sound as if your all about ten years old.

Now can we please act like rational adults before I have to make all of you sit in the corner until you behave!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-07-05 19:37:00

@dark i'm just being me, joking   about everything. i don't even know what the hell is going on big_smile

2018-07-06 04:28:04

I would have to agree with Dark on this one. If you are truly contemplating suicide, and you don't have anyone to share these thoughts with, it would be prudent to Google some resources, perhaps other online forums which are equipped to deal with these sorts of issues. I would be willing to bet that there are quite a few members of this forum who have struggled with various facets of mental health, myself included, but that doesn't make this the ideal place to unload such a bombshell. It would be different if, say, you were asking a specific question about a problem you're having, or hell, the accessibility of such online resources, as that's a question that's crossed my mind more than once, especially in recent months.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2018-07-06 12:50:55 (edited by defender 2018-07-07 12:17:18)

@12
I'm not even the least bit sorry at this point honestly, I'm tired of it, not enough context, not enough effort to reach out to proper resources which everyone has given her, not even enough basic decency to respond directly to people trying to help, no improvement, broken record, not my problem because I did what I was supposed to do, don't need it thrust into my life again and it's unfair to the whole forum.
This wouldn't fly on a large mainstream forum either, the only difference is that it would take longer to find out that it was a consistent issue since you'd have to look at a person's post history.
Their is basic kindness, and then their is getting walked on, and you can't help someone who refuses to help them selves, so don't let them poison the well for others.
I'm not a mental health worker, I don't get paid to deal with this shit, and I already went above and beyond what I should have for a faceless stranger that is in all likelyhood mostly trolling even if they do have real underlying issues.
Just keep in mind the other few times that you gave someone a second, third, fourth chance because of a legitimately  sad story, finally having to ban them after people were five seconds away from lynching you/leaving the forum over it, and how badly that hurt ag.net's over all reputation in the eyes of it's users.
Their are so many better places to talk about this kind of thing, and it's not anyone's inherent duty to let someone spread their misery around to them, or act as a punching bag for someone who's had a hard time of it.
I'm gonna ignore this whole thing now though so I stay out of trouble and take your warning at face value, I respect this site and though i may sound it, I'm really not that angry at the mods, just exasperated, because Dark you have a good heart and it's hard to hate that about someone.

2018-07-06 14:36:05

Well, ever notice how OP never replies, never contributes to the discussion once started, just leaves it for others to run rampant with, that's one clue to me that this isn't a serious discussion, or a cry for help or something like that from someone who really needs it.

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2018-07-06 15:35:28 (edited by flackers 2018-07-06 15:42:31)

The subject itself is a serious one though, and that's what's up for discussion, so whether the OP takes part isn't in my mind that essential. You often get Ops who don't contribute after starting a thread, or the discussion goes beyond the scope of their interest, or knowledge, as happens to me quite a lot around here smile.
And besides, none of us has actually answered the question she was asking. She wanted to know which is more selfish, to inflict suffering on loved ones by committing suicide, or for loved ones to condemn you to a life of unhappiness so that they themselves don't have to suffer the loss. It's an interesting and difficult question. I partly agree that we're okay with putting animals to sleep if their life is nothing but suffering, but we humans are forced to endure to the bitter end. But I think the question itself is a bit faulty. You'd have to assume that the actions of the people who love you  aren't the cause of the depressed person's unhappiness, but the act of suicide would be the cause of the loved ones' suffering, so it's comparing two things that aren't really comparable. So my view is the decent thing to do would be to try to do something about your unhappiness that doesn't involve causing great suffering to people who love you. Because the suffering is great indeed. And if I thought the OP was using this subject to laugh up their sleeve at the idiots who fall for it, I'd be first in line to stick my boot up their arse, but I don't get that sense.

2018-07-06 18:02:22

Well I'm of two opinions, people who have depression so bad that they literally sink to rock bottom, and that rock bottom is so low that they feel they need to commit suicide, that's a problem. The reason I see it that way is because some of those people do come out of their depressions and have highs in their life where they are happy. They may even have children or so forth. The problem is what can you really do for these people, antidepressents don't work, all they do is make you into this zombie, either that or it levels you out so much that you literally are indifferent to everything around you. You're not rock bottom low, but you never hit those highs either. Not like I have personal experience from it, but listened to what others have said regarding the subject. I mean, what's the point living life when you're just apathetic all the time, you're never depressed, but you're never happy either because the meds take that away from you. I know some people find ways to cope, some struggle with it all their lives. We cannot cure it. We have different classes of drugs, but you can run through all those and not like the effects, or the side effects. Sexual dysfunction being among some of the worst. But those people have it hard, because they may have a partner, and children, and they have to muddle through the best they know how and suffer through the lows.

Where I see it differently is if you literally have nothing to live for, something terrible has happened to you, maybe you lost one or several family members, all your family are gone, or something where you don't have anyone to talk to. I can see it then. The thing is, I don't believe just talking to someone is going to solve the problem, it may stay your attempt to commit suicide this time, but you probably will reach this point again unless the underlying situation changes, you make friends, or something.

At any rate, I don't think suicide should be illegal, I don't think the government has the right to tell you that you cannot end your life, as long as you do it in such a way that doesn't risk hurting other people. And even then, what can they really do, toss you in jail, good luck if you carried it off successfully. But what if you want to have it done by a doctor, what if you don't want to just swallow a whole bottle of pills, but you actually want to have a medical professional attend you while they help you end your life. I think you should have that option, but then we get into the whole realm of mental competency. Do these mental health professionals really know enough to tell you that you're not competent, is the DSM5 really a suitable guide. I don't know the answers to those questions, but its gray, very gray areas here. Now you need legislation that lists all these conditions about what does and what does not form a case for physician assisted suicide. It gets overly complicated and full of bureaucracy and red tape.

Onto the selfishness thing, well obviously, if I was contemplating this, I wouldn't tell anyone and would just do it if I felt the need so strongly. If I was elderly and had children, I'd make the choice and they'd just have to accept it. I respect others' who feel this way, which may be my grandpa in a bit to be honest. He's not doing well, and the doctors have no idea what the issue is. Last year, he was hospitalized for nearly three months. He was having problems before this, now its the same, if not worse, because in addition to all that, he has rapidly lost his memory. He'll forget conversations that took place 10 minutes ago, he came over one time and forgot that we have a cat. Apart from this, he never feels well. He may have two good days a week. Now, if he said he wanted to die, I would be in full support of that, and yes, it would cause me hardship, and I don't want to see him die, but I am aware that he is suffering, and I'd rather see him leave this world with whatever mental and physical faculties he has left, than to see him live another 10 years, suffering all the while. I know this thing is problematic for families, but they often think of themselves first, and their ailing family member second, and its hard to break that cycle. It's so emotional for them, but here's the thing, this is the time when they need you the most, you have to be strong in this time, you can grieve and break down later, but now, they need you. If it's a parent, remember, they gave you what you needed all your life, and even when they were hard on you, they did it to ensure your success in life. So you've always gotten what you needed from them, but now they need you. (Obviously I know there are a lot of bad parents out there, but I'm being abstract here so go with it).

The person doesn't have to be elderly either, it can be someone who has a progressive illness, who is going to die anyway, the illness is starting to really set in now, they're really feeling the limitations. They did a lot of living while the symptoms weren't that bad, but now they really can't do much. Or, they are just starting to feel the effects, and don't want to live another 10 years not being able to do anything. In those cases, I can see someone wanting to die. They lived while they could, they don't want to be bound in a wheelchair. That I can see being really hard for the family, I can see them not really understanding it. They would question why this person wants to die now, when they can still have life even in a wheelchair, they can still do things. They can get an electric wheelchair if their condition prevents them from operating a manual one. Me personally, I can see that there is still some life to be had even in a wheelchair. You could try to raise funds for research into the condition you have, you could overcome the barriers and find new ways to live. Maybe if you found the right partner, you could go and climb Mt. Everest, who knows. But my point is, even though I see both sides of this one, that person has a choice to make, and even if it was someone in my family, I couldn't fault them for making the choice to end their life, no matter what it did to me.

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2018-07-06 20:03:16

There are a lot of valid points here.

First, I agree with ironcross32 that that just as you have the right to life, you also have the right to death, as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others.

Here is where I disagree with ironcross32, I don't believe that doctors should participate in helping someone end their own life because it runs counter to the Hippocratic oath all doctors agree to and accept. I'll even take it a step further in that I don't think that anyone should participate in helping someone take their own life. You can offer advice on how to do it and even help them get the matterials needed, but when it comes down to performing the act, they should do it themselves.

In the area of mental health, counseling, and medications, they can sometimes help, but there are no guarantees. My youngest sister has had emotional problems ever since she was a teenager back in the 70s. I don't know what, if any, medications she may have tried, but I do know that she sought counseling for the past 20 or so years, ever since her first marriage fell apart, and even with counseling from a doctor that she liked and trusted and saw once a week for the past fifteen years, she still took her life almost three months ago. At the end of it all, as sad as her passing was, I am thankful in knowing that she is no longer suffering. That silver lining at least eases the pain of the loss.

I deleted my previous message because, as upsetting to me as Defender's message to Joan was, I realized that it is not my place to correct him, that is for the moderators to do.

2018-07-06 21:09:29

Ah, but our interpretation of what harm is can be so narrow. I think we all agree if I stab someone, I'm harming them. But what if I use leeches on them, or introduce maggots into the wound. Obviously, that is not necessary for all wound treatments these days, but I think those practices do still get used in some cases. But, am I harming them? Maybe, in the short term I am, but to the intent of making things better in the end. And if we have harm, what then is the essence of harm, how to we quantify what harm is, who harmed whom and so on. Can we do harm to the body, yes; to the mind, yes, we see that; to the spirit? What if a person's suffering is so great that their spirit is broken. What if by ending their suffering, their essence can be freed of its corporeal existence, whereupon it can rejoin the energy that makes up this earth, and the wider universe. Our legislation doesn't deal with that possibility, because its not something that is concrete, something we can observe, document, quantify. Does any of us know what happens when we die? No we don't, because it is generally a one way process. The people who have been resuscitated, they recount stories sometimes, but how can we know those stories aren't the result of the mind letting go of reality as it shuts down. And, there's a philosophical argument to be made that if you were declared clinically dead, but you were resuscitated, were you ever really dead? Sure, it can be documented that at a certain time, cessation of heart rhythm and pulse, respiration and so on did occur, but those are signs of the body, not the spirit. We can document mechanical failures of the body, but where was the spirit in all that, the soul. It may have gone away for a time, or it may have lingered, but if the body comes back, what then calls the spirit or the soul back into place? Maybe that is the reason some people do come back brain dead, not because the brain somehow became incapable of functioning, but the essence of all that that person was, just was unable to linger any more.

This is why I say the government has no right to dictate that a person cannot end their own life, because the government in all its forms and red tape, and inner workings, it needs concrete evidence to work with. My stance is that if a person wishes to die, they have that right.

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2018-07-06 22:02:14

That makes me wonder about those people who were cryonically frozen. They're dead, but preserved in the hope that they can someday be revived. If there is indeed such a thing as a soul or spirit, where is it while they're frozen? I know I'm not the first one to wonder about this. Lol.

2018-07-06 23:35:00

@ironcross32

That is exactly why I don't think that doctors should assist anyone in the taking of their own life. Because defining what is and what is not harm is such a gray area that is largely up to individual interpretation. I'm sure that Michael Jackson's doctor felt that he was doing no harm in giving him the drugs he administered to him, but as we saw, the jury didn't agree and he was sentenced to prison time. The same could be said of Doctor Kevorkian too, he thought that he was doing no harm in assisting his patients with terminal diseases or chronic pain by giving them the means to end their lives, again a jury disagreed and he was sent to prison.

@TheGreatCarver

Oh really? Where is your proof of this. Just because the person on twitter and the thread starter used the same famous person's name, doesn't mean that they are the same person. That being said, I'd rather err on the side of caution and offer some helpful advice, instead of possibly being the one that says something that pushes them over the edge.

2018-07-07 02:09:04

harm v. not harm is so gray though, I can see both sides and won't debate it because I don't feel there's enough to say either way for sure.

I will say this though, it isn't incumbent upon us to be someone's mental health professionals, we are not qualified for it, and this is a gamer's forum. Also, if you put something like this out to such a wide audience, you sort of should expect a wide array of responses. Some will be good, and some not so good. I would say treat this like any other forum even though this place is pretty kid gloves on.

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2018-07-07 10:12:10

cut off your own dick? LOL

2018-07-07 12:18:18

Sorry Ironcross, I actually didn't see Orco's message before it got deleted, so I thought you were just name dropping him out of the blue. big_smile