2009-08-28 09:08:21

It seems ironic that just as the board game/war game/RPG market seems to be struggling that it is also at its most accessible by VI players. Rulebooks for pen and paper RPG and for wargames are increasingly available in PDF, and board game books could potentially be run through OCR which like everything else is always improving. By board game I'm not talking monopoly or mouse trap, but serious board games aimed at gamers.

The existence of online communities such as here or Audyssey also makes it easier for people to share their experiences of what is and isn't accessible, and how to adapt games. We could for example discuss how to make adapted boards for board games, and which rules to adjust or leave out because they over complicate matters for us.

So what do people think? Might it be viable for us to build a community based on not just audio games, but table top games? Yes you need another person to play with, and probably also assistance with the adaption of boards, but it would be in my opinion a great way to share a game with sighted friends and offers far more social significance than online games. Is anyone here interested in learning about such games? Would it be worth documenting any efforts to adapt games that need it? Documenting experiences of which games can be more easily played, and how reports of how the game play went?

I've been having thoughts about some or all of these genres, and if I get a chance to try any of them out I'd be more than happy to share my experiences if people are interested.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-28 12:23:47

Well, while I'm absolutely familiar with, ----- and would totally support more Vi players of tabletop rpg games ala D&d (I once contact the rnib here in England about producing accessible rule books and dice before I knew about the computer available versions), I'm less certain about the accessibility of strategical boardgames.

While it might take work, a tactile board utilizing raised lines and braille lables would be fairly symple to make (my mum and I did plenty of more symple board games like mouse trap when i was litle), I'm not exactly certain of how a blind player would get enough overview information of where the units, ----- and as I understand it in war games there are many units, ---- were on the board, what ranges, obstacles or other features of the board applied etc.

I admit, my spacial logic is pretty terrible, ---- so I have trouble with the grid based games unless I can have a physical representation of the board wich I could have my fingers on as in an adapted chess board.

Even if the problem of sticking the pieces to the board so a blind player could feel them could be solved, ----- say with velcrow on the bases of pieces and board, I'm less certain as to how translatable the information would be for a Vi player, ---- for instance questions of distance, line of sight, range of attack etc.

Of course, I admit I don't know half as much about tabletop war games as i do about tabletop rp, so if I've over estimated anything just let me know.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-08-28 15:41:38

The computer versions of D&D were taken down some time ago sadly.

For sticking pieces to the board:
I know of a place I can get loads of 60cm square 1cm thick foam blocks quite cheaply. It's pretty rugged stuff. Put velcro on the edges to stick them together, and cover in steel adhesive sheeting (basically foil) I know of from another place. It comes 80cm by 5m rolls. Then stick magnets to the bottom of the playing pieces or miniatures.

As to ranges, there are talking tape measures and tactile rulers available. Along with tactile D6 readily available from RNIB.

Big battles could indeed be awkward, though I tend to have reasonably good spatial memory. All that time playing the original Diablo I guess laugh. With a lot of them though you're either talking about a small number of detailed units, or larger numbers but which are tied together in groups. Thus you're dealing with a group of men rather than X separate individuals.

Highly strategic board games would of course vary based on the game in question. I've preordered the Games Workshop new version of Space Hulk and hope to adapt it, though sadly its limited edition nature means it isn't going to be widely doable by various people. For this I plan to use pipe cleaners, which I can get in packs of 100 10cm long for literally a couple of quid, to distinguish the squares.

The one game I've thought about hard that I can't entirely work out is Battletech. It requires too much detail for each individual 'mech, normally recorded on a sheet, and I for the life of me can't work out how to deal with this independently.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-29 09:33:27

Well, the magnets and foil idea may work, ---- though I do remember a magnetic chess board we had when i was litle, which had the miner proble that you could push pieces along the magnetic surfice of the squares and thus out of position if you weren't careful.

Smaller numbers of detailed units might be a good idea, ---- assuming all the questions of angle etc could be solved.

I would've thought, if you could mark out the hexagons, ---- say with pipe cleaners as you suggest, battletech would be one of the easier board games to play being as, ----- if I interpreted the rules correctly there are only four units per player, --- thus making the board play easier.

If it's just a matter of recording a large amount of information for the statistics and damage of each unit, ---- I really don't see why you can't just use a laptop or desktop with appropriate word documents as I do in tabletop games for a character sheet.

You could even have the advantage of one sheet per unit so as to make things easier.

Unless I've missed something, I would've thought recording textual information would've been the easy part.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-08-29 10:05:25

That is of course true about using a word processor or spreadsheet. The information required is:
Armour information for 11 locations, thereb are 8 locations with separate armour values but the 3 torso ones have front and back values
structure values for the mentioned 8 locations
critical slot tables for the 8 locations, which allow anything from engine damage to actuator damage impairing or even blowing off limbs
Heat tracking

Might have to work on an excel sheet for this. Angles are handily based on hex sides.

I personally favour magnetism because it's probably less expensive, you can use powerful neodimium magnets, and it doesn't tend to collect fluff like velcro. It also has the possible advantage of allowing you to place textures over the top without noticably affecting its functionality, so you can use magnets to stick 'mechs to the board area for battletech but also place velcro of either type, thin fabrics and so on to reflect different terrains. Including the elevation numbers is a bit of a worry too though. The play area would also take up quite a large amount of space too, so it would almost certainly need to be foldable or disassemblable. The hexes make disassembly hard because you'd end up with half a hex on one part and the other half on another, unless you cut along the hex lines and have a jagged edge. You'd also need separate set ups for each of the maps you wish to use.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-30 04:33:47

Well, that doesn't sound too bad if a table or spreadsheet could be used for each unit so as to make finding individual information easier.

for making the map, earlier you suggested using phome sections stuck together with velcrow. Rather than creating one large folding board, How about creating a number of single hexis in various textures and terrain types made out of hexagonal pieces of phome which could stick together. That way, you could have any configuration of terrain you wanted and play just about any map.

While it'd be probably more time consuming to make many hexagons this way it would have lots of adaptability advantages.

How much variation would there be il elevation betwene the different hexes? If it's several standard measurements such as, you could simply cut thicker or thinner hexagons out of the phome as required. If it's numerical, you could use braille poste it notes of the values which could be torn off as required, ---- it's for these sorts of instant labeling situations that braille actually does stil have it's uses.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-08-30 06:57:49

I had thought about that, and even considered using multiple levels of hexes on top of each other to represent elevation. It is indeed numerical.

I had thought about tqactile labels, in moon since I've not been able to find someone to teach me braille which is a bit of a personal peeve. I've been concerned about the texture and the label interfering with each other though, depends how big the hexes are I suppose.

I'll have to ignore the water depth rules of courrse laugh, that's where water hexes have two different height levels - one for the surface and one for the bed below. I think that would be a minor nightmare lol.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-30 09:33:48

The texture and lable would probably be fine if you used a standard sticky pad and just wrote braille lables of hights as necessary. Finding the basic numbers 1-9 and zero in braille shouldn't bee too much trouble, ---- they're also the same as the letters a-j, even if you don't generally learn braille fully (I'll admit, learnign grade 2 braille from scratch is a bit of an undertaking given the short hand).

If post it lables were used, it'd simply be a matter of writing correct information on the lables and sticking them to the hexes.

Of course, the best solution would be if the megamec access projects sorts itself out, ----- but we'll have to wait for that I think.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-08-30 13:25:43

That indeed would be helpful, but naturally it seems difficult. It might be easier if there was a library available to run SAPI in Java, trouble is Java is designed to be cross platform. Wonder if someone could make an accessibility library for Java, allowing it to use the built in speech in both Windows through SAPI and in Mac OS.

Right now I'm leaning away from individual tiles because it would be very hard to set up, especially given the lack of a reference. I'm considering using a sheet of fabric so it can be folded, and using staples to allow magnetisation.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-08-31 14:33:12

Well, my thought on separate click together hexes was map access, ---- though I do see the point that making them exactly the ame as a print map could be slightly time consuming without notations.

Agreed on the java sapi issue, especially as screen reader access in java with hal or jaws is a litle hit and miss. I recently discovered a java application which played the fabled lands gamebooks, ----- however is completely unfriendly to screen readers despite the fact that all it's essentially doing is displaying text files and keeping stats.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)