2009-06-25 21:03:27

Hello gamers,

In the creation of Excalibur, I have got to make a decision that will effect all further development. Moreover, it will have a huge impact on gameplay. And that is why I chose to ask for feedback on this excellent forum.
As you may know already, Excalibur is a spacefighter simulator in which you have to accomplish certain missions. You control your own fighter and fight against the computer or other players online. Now, it is this control that I want to ask you about. But before I come to the real question, let me describe the physical layout of the fighter a bit.
The basic fighter will have one tail engine which is used for moving forward at great speeds. It also has two wing thrusters that can be used to stear. If you fire the right one, you will essentially stear to the left, because the thrust coming from the right pushes you that way. The opposite is, of course, possible too. There have been written two control schemas for controlling the engines, the realistic one and the easy one. I will lay them out below.

1. Realistic mode
The K and I keys are used to control the main engine. I will increase speed, and K will decrease speed.
The same goes for the wing thrusters. U increases the speed of the left one, and O increases the speed of the right one. The J and L keys will decrease speed.
For example, if I wanted to increase my straight speed a bit and make a sharp curve to the right, I would press the I key for the main engine, and then the U key for the left thruster.

2. The easy mode
The up and down arrow keys control the main engine, just like the I and K keys did in the previous mode.
The left arrow key fires up the right thruster to go to the left, and vice versa.
For example, if I wanted to increase my straight speed a bit and then make a nifty ride to the left, I would press the up arrow and the left arrow keys.

The advantage of the last mode is that it seems more natural. Think about it, pressing a key on the right side of your keyboard to go to the left can be confusing at first. However, it really adds to the realism of the game, as you will have seperate controls for each thruster without any corrections. If you want to fire up the left one, you press the key on the left, just like that.

I will only be implementing one mode, to prevent ways of cheating and overall confusion. Yet, I can't decide what I want to do... Do gamers want realism (which requires a little getting-used-to), or do they prefer the easy way? Are possible buyers deciding against the purchase because they don't understand the keyboard system yet and thus end up moving in the absolute wrong way?

Opinions? Suggestions? Anything?

2009-06-26 06:42:50

Hmm I'm not sure which I would personally prefer either, the idea of the realistic controls is quite intriguing to me.

That said apparently some people complained the controls for Rail Racer were too complicated, rolls eyes, so I've a nasty suspicion there would be people who even find the simple controls too complicated for their tastes.

Curious to see what anyone else thinks.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-26 12:01:47

To give a real world example: Has anybody turned on the feature in Tank Commander that allows you to use the left arrow key to go to the left when you are in reverse gear? I forgot what it is called, but it basically removes some realism from the game in favor of ease of use.
And for my own game, I may have to do something similar. If it was up to me, I would go with the realistic mode, but I'm afraid that people will not like the game because of this key set. I fear they won't try long and hard enough to get the hang of it. And on the other hand, I think that once you got the hang of it, the key set will be way more fun to use.

2009-06-26 12:41:39

That was my concern too. There seems to be a tendency for people to ask for more complex audio games, I want them myself, but then people complain the game is too difficult to learn to pplay.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-26 13:20:49

I think you should go with the realistic set, or implement both. have the system tell the user what mode the other player is using, if they go online, to prevent confusion. but, then there's the cheating. with realistic mode you could probably accomplish more moves, with the easy mode you won't really be able to do much -- it'll kind of be like alien outback thrusters or something, so i think the realistic mode would be better as you can icrease and decrease the speed of thrust and such.

2009-06-26 13:52:03

I might consider using the numpad as well as an alternative option for people on full keyboards, unless you had soemthing in mind for it. For example 8/2 for normal thrust, 9/3 for right thruster, 7/1 for left thruster. Not sure about 4 5 6.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-26 17:19:32

my suggestion, if possible, is to implement the 2 types of control, so wen you are going online
for example, it'll check, and only allow users to play in the same mode that who hosts the game
chooses.
what do you guys think?

contact info
email:
matrheine at gmail . com

2009-06-27 10:00:54

I must admit I'm not sure what the answer is. i do believe rail racer lost out the impatient players who wouldn't take the time to learn the hotkeys, ----- especially with them not being arrow keys, but equally i like the idea of a more complex game.

As you've stated already you don't fancy the idea of two modes, how about a compromise.

Stil keep the back and forward thrust for each wing trhuster, ---- which strikes me as an incredibly fluid and interesting idea for control, but switch them about on the i-k-j-l system.

So I and K for forward thrust, J and u for forward and back thrust of the right thruster, and o and l for the same on the left.

That way you are actually pressing buttons on the right to go right and forward, but have the back thrusters for maneuvering and turning in a more complex manner.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-06-27 13:09:26

Okay, I will be thinking about all the cool suggestions that have been made. Yeah, this is going to be hard...
Meanwhile, could anybody tell me some more about mainstream games and what controls they use? How extended are these?

2009-06-27 17:11:25

Depends which games you mean.

Space combat games tend to use joystick rather than keys most of the time, and it's a simple push left to turn left type system. That is apart from console games which I presume use a game pad instead.

If you let us know which games you're particularly thinking of, and which aspects, I'm sure I'll be able to answer. I played many mainstream games before losing my sight.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-27 19:41:27

Basically I am wondering if sighted people complain about hotkeys just as much as we, visually impaired people do. Or, well, it's not really complaining, more having difficulty to work out the various game hotkeys.
What also surprises me is that most GMA Games have loads of hotkeys, yet they seem fairly easy and straight forward. And that while many people found the Rail Racer keys too hard to get used to. I personally liked them very much, but I have heard other stories.

2009-06-28 04:31:18

Most mainstream games have a key config as standard, ---- particularly I believe those on a pc where obviously you have a keyboard and far more keys to choose from.

I could be wrong, sinse other than starwing on the Snes I haven't come into contact with many main stream flight type games, ---- as I am both unable to play them myself, and haven't had any friends or my brother who did, however I believe generally the concept is to make a game where the in game physics and control of the ship ar the main thing to be learnt and while several keys were used as control, it was learning to use them efficiently which was the challenge, ---- not getting used to their particular position (which as I said, could be altered).

Such was certainly the case in starwing.

I admit though, i might certainly be wrong about this.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-06-28 11:14:58

I could of course make Mission #1 all about learning the different keys that you need. Oh yeah, really cool!

Innocent customer: "So, what is Excalibur all about? I heard it was a spacefighter simulator?"
Harsh developer: "Why yes! But before the fun starts, I must tell you that we implemented another challenge. As we feel that education is very important for blind and partially sighted people, we built an enhanced keyboard trainer!"
Innocent customer (whispering closeby): "So, are there any well-kept secrets that I, as a loyal customer, am allowed to know?"
Harsh developer: "Surely! Let me go ahead tell you the best kept secret that I can think of." (Innocent customer starts bouncing up and down by now) "The best kept secret is that almost nobody has come past this keyboard trainer. It has been created because of the many keys that a player needs to learn. But in fact, this keyboard set-up is so crazily hard, that it has driven many people, including yours truly, totally insane."

Seriously though, I think I have found the best keyboard layout for Excalibur. I will probably let the user choose between Realistic Mode and Easy Mode, as both modes will use the arrow keys for main fighter control. I have changed the spacefighter's control interface, the physics and the intelligence behind the whole system to make this possible. Now it's time to start coding!

2009-06-28 13:19:45

Well most earlier flight simulators and a lot of early space combat games included a key reference card, though this isn't practiacl for us. This was especially the case with the realism focused flight simulator games where you had loads of different controls.

Later on many flight sims actually had a point and click interface for visual controls in the cockpit, though the space combat games stuck with hotkeys and generally a reference guide. This might be on a separate card, or even on the back of the manual say.

Thaat said most space combat games later on did indeed let you reconfigure almost anything to any control you can find. Noone really complained so long as the game let them use joystick buttons, and so long as the amount of controls wasn't absurd.

I'm afraid hotkeys being remembered is something of a burden for audio games we have to bear, but I at least can handle it quite well most of the time.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-28 13:55:36

Now there's a fun idea for a game. Create a boppit style game to learn the keys of a more complex game, and keep adding more keys until someone's mind breaks under the strain!

It'd save devs a lot of time in actually making the games, ---- lol!

while I do miss the days when I could pick up any generic Snes platformer and just learn the basic buttons, i do accept that audiogames require different approaches.

Obviously in game audio reference is always a good idea, and if the first mission was a key tutorial of some sort (perhaps in context of a space academy), that would shorten the learning curve.

while I personally actually enjoy reading manuals for the in depth look at the game it gives, I stil occasionally do feel mildly impatient with them when looking at a new game.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-06-28 14:01:35

Perhaps there might be a way to have in game key help? Maybe like the key describer in Jaws, pausing the game and then telling you what buttons do when you press them, or a menu where left/right move between categories such as flight, weapons and so on and the up and down keys move through reading out the controls for that category? Obviously pausing is only practical for single player games, but if you're playing multiplayer you should know the controls already.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-28 14:12:44

I do really like that second idea, cx2!
I will explain what keyboard input system I chose to use later, when things have been developed a little further.

2009-06-28 14:52:06

Glad to be of help smile

I know GMA games even have the help available from in game, but I never realy needed to use it there funnily enough lol.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-06-28 16:39:51

In game help is handy though, particularly as it saves looking through the manual if you want to pick up a game you've not played for a while.

Generally I find I can remember most of the commands in Gma games, however occasionally I'll just want one of the basic ones for some reason, ----- like sector coordinates or look ahead.

At those points, the ability to quickly review commands in game really helps.

So, I'd also agree with Cx2's suggestion.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2009-06-30 16:58:47

Yep, i recently started playing x hour again and forgot how to check co-ordinates and used the in game help. I also agree with cx2 and dark.