2014-01-31 14:19:46

Hi.
Wow, nice video on Youtube.

Best regards SLJ.
If you like the post, then please give it a thumps up.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Happy gaming... :D

2014-01-31 14:57:53

Okay, I got everything done. Now I'm trying to play it but it's telling me there's an error that the executable is missing. How do I go about fixing this? It downloaded and installed everything but apparently the Exe is missing.

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2014-01-31 16:24:40

What exactly is missing? can you copy the error corectly as it is?

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2014-01-31 17:07:55

@slj: No, sorry. A service that requires an OCR plugin and CAPTCHA is an accessible failure. Steam has made it quite clear that they do not care in the slightest about us, and thus I refuse to give them my money.  If you want to continue to bend over backwards to give a company business when they have made it clear that they do not want your money, and would be happier if you just dropped dead or were never born, that's your choice.  I'll save my money for developers like Star Traders, and companies like Apple and Google, who are at least willing to try.  When you give steam a single sent from your pocket, you are betraying the entire blind community, as you are telling steam that doing nothing is good enough, and they can continue to screw you, and you'll just give them money anyway.  Steams total failure to even try is not, in any way, good enough.  Not having an audio CAPTCHA in 2014 is inexcusable.  You are not helping anyone. All you are doing is undermining any efforts anyone else might try and make to get steam to actually fix things.

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2014-01-31 17:16:18

lol, that is hmmm... well, i don't have words, really.

Yeah, typical brindy comment, Everything what should be said about that was been posted here. Don't like that,  don't get anything, it's so easy.

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2014-01-31 17:22:07

@seal: My not getting anything isn't good enough. In order to have the power of our entire, somewhat small, market, working for us, we need to encourage everyone to stand together, and refuse to accept things that are not good enough because they only work on one screen reader, on one platform, with one browser, some of the time. 

PS: Please keep the dismissive insulting bullshit to yourself. Also, if you are going to insult me, at least learn to spell the words. Doing otherwise just makes you look pathetic.

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2014-01-31 17:28:48

No offence, commenting only and this is a difference.


PS. start talking and writing in other language than yours and i'll tell you you are so pathetic. :-)
Fun, really!

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2014-01-31 17:36:18 (edited by fastfinge 2014-01-31 17:40:19)

@seal: The only way the word blindy can be used is offensive.  It is *always* used to shame and insult someone who you disagree with.  Generally, this is so you can just laugh them off, and avoid responding to what they've said. This is what you are doing. It is insulting and pathetic, regardless of your skill at English.

And I took French classes for 4 years. I always proofread my posts, and catch obvious errors like the mistake you made.  If it was a grammar mistake, I wouldn't have mentioned it, because English grammar is hard. Same thing if it was a difficult word. But that was just an easy to spot typo. I'm sorry, but ESL doesn't mean you get to not proofread.

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2014-01-31 17:48:19

Okay, not worth arguing. I am reading and i know what i am typing about so there is everything what I wanted to say.
That was only my comment regarding the topic and that's all. Noone must like what i am sayng about and how i am saying something and that is okay for me. This is not a first time when someone is against something what I'm saying about. I never told YOU ARE BLIND and TYPICAL PERSON, I only told this is typical blindy comment what yeah, you could get to you really. Instead of making some wars Better will be to concentrate on the main topic. Sorry to you f something sounds offensve, Maybe that's a difference between understanding / culture /  languages and expression. As I said, I knew what I wanted to type.

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2014-01-31 17:50:10

@fastfinge, @blindjay and everyone else dismissing this game,

Sorry to say, but if you ask me with this attitude you're really a disgrace to all blind gamers and you should never advocate for game accessibility. If you want to stick to the audio game developers, be my guest. Just remember that those amazing breakthrough developers charge 4 or 5 times the price of skull girls for games that have draconian and unfair DRM, and very realistic physics that put you in control of a plane that weighs 50 kilos, climbs to 50000 feet in 20 seconds, and decelerates from 1000 km/h to 0 in half a second. Or games that make you drive a car down a railroad, because it's too difficult to make a game with, you know, actual roads. But never mind that man, it's amazing and empowering, and state of the art! sad

So you don't want to support the developer  because of the platform he's using? OK. Just know that Valve only receives about 20-30% of the revenue. I wonder where the rest goes to? Maybe zero labs, the developers of the game, the same people who spent 2 days non-stop to make it accessible for a small fraction of the player base. But no, I can't do that because it's a disgrace to the blind community.  Just remember that apparently they don't care.

So let's just blame Mike for making the game accessible, and using a platform which has a very good multiplayer infrastructure that can support the hundreds of thousand players at once. But OK, let's look for alternatives. Games for windows live? Inaccessible, and it's due to shut down desura? Even more inaccessible. Game centre? It's not on Windows. They could just  run their own servers, but to have them for every world region, be up 24-7, it would cost a lot of money. And keep in mind this game was crowd funded by gamers who actually wanted to see this finished.

Steam can be used without OCR, it's clear you haven't read the guide. The captchas can also be solved with webvisum, it just takes time.  Supporting multiple screen readers? Well, that's what you get for probably using JAWS, which by the way is getting the most important bugs fixed since.. Oh, V8 maybe.

So with that said, have fun playing your audio games. And good luck approaching mainstream developers with this attitude!

<Insert passage from "The Book Of Chrome" here>

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2014-01-31 17:59:39 (edited by fastfinge 2014-01-31 18:02:08)

@pitermach: The disgrace is accepting solutions from steam that do not support developers who want to help us. As things stand, a developer with a mac or linux game on steam cannot make it accessible, because the only OCR plugin runs on windows, and WebVisum to get through the account CAPTCHA is on Windows.  We have hundreds of mainstream IOS games that are fully accessible, and to be honest, I own something like 50 or 60 of them.  That's because Apple stepped up to the plate and gave IOS and OS X programmers the tools they needed to help them help us.  I also own an android Nexus7 with multiple mainstream accessible games. Once again, Google stepped up and gave Google developers help and tools in fixing their games.  I also own a Nintendo Wii with several games. While Nintendo doesn't go out of their way to make things accessible to us, they don't do everything in their power to put up CAPTCHAs and every other roadblock under the sun to lock us out.  I also own a copy of Smugglers5; even though accessibility is far from perfect, the developer at least tries, and it does work on multiple screen readers with multiple configurations. That's more than Steam has bothered to do. 

Valve is an accessibility disgrace. They do not deserve, and should not get, 1 percent of my or any other blind player's money, never mind 30 percent.  As it is, all you are doing is choosing to pay 30 percent to a company that is actively doing everything it can to lock you out of the system.  By doing so, you are making it impossible for those of us who want to see real improvements, and who want accessibility that doesn't exclude every blind player who isn't using Windows with NVDA and Firefox.  But I guess if it works for you, anyone else should just go screw themselves.  Your attitude is sickening.

Your assumption that I don't support mainstream game accessibility is absolutely nonsense.  Your putting words in my mouth is completely unappreciated.  Your needless insults to the audiogames developers are totally unnecessary. 

And on an unrelated note, I've proofread this post 4 times, and I'm still not sure if I used the right "there" in the right places. Yes, English is hard. I get it.

Edit: and I missed one there. Fixed. Also, I used the word absolutely poorly, so I fixed that, too.

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2014-01-31 18:01:31

So I downloaded the game, both programs, and have clipreader running, but I'm not getting anything.

Silly Gohan, animals don't eat people. People eat animals.

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2014-01-31 18:05:43

Did you added the parameters to the skullgirls in the properties? If yes, when you are launching the game you should be fine with that.

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2014-01-31 18:29:20

Hi,
@fastfinge: I actually agree with you about Steam, yet this is the only way we can get this game right now.
I can say the same thing about PSN. Time was, I had to get sighted help to download anything from that store. Then they added the web store and that was pretty much accessible.
I haven't used my wii for a wile due to the fact that the menus don't support the d-pad. One small movement in the wrong direction and you highlight a different option.
Steam, OK we need sighted help to set it up.
But then we can enter some commandline stuff that makes it easier to use, and there are now a couple of jaws users using it. It's not all about NVDA.
I'm one of these people who respects other people's decisions, but saying that we're a disgrace just because we're using something that might not be completely, and fully, accessible is a little rediculous in my book.
Technically, this would also include every game console under the sun. I don't see them acknowledging us, it's the devs who acknowledge. Well, this is the same way. To me, steam is more like a games console within a pc environment.
I can understand what you are saying though and I respect it. This, unfortunately, means that you are missing out on some serious fun though.
I purchased skullgirls and didn't play it much, yet something in my gut told me to purchase it. Well for these past two days I've been playing skullgirls, and actually completing tutorial sections, something i usually miss out on. I spent a good three or four hours total so far, some of that doing tutorial, a lot of that doing story, but what I really did not expect, was me being able to play online, with my screen reader reading who I was fighting against, which character they were, which stage we were fighting on, and, even the person's connection ping which would determine if there'd be any lag or not.
After that I found out my wins and losses.
All this because I thought about signing up for steam one day.
Add to this the fact that as long as I'm logged into Steam, I can install the game on as many windos pcs as I want.

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2014-01-31 18:35:09

@Fastfinge: You are right in saying that Steam does not do anything to make their client easier to use. But saying that they make everything to lock us out is a very strong understatement.
Steam is by far not the only one company who does not care about accessibility. I could mention any other gaming platform on the PC: Capsule, Playfire, Desura, and the list goes on and on. From these Steam is the only one that is at least usable. I hope you see the irony in your argument.
Not using software just because it is either proprietary or not fully accessible is really not going to take us forward. If these companies do not care about accessibility, they won't care if you use their products or not. It won't show them that we are out there, needing accessibility. It will make them believe that we, blind people, are happy with what we got, head tucked in sand. And as a result, the next generation of blind gamers will be discouraged of going forward and experimenting, trying out new things, or making an example of small companies who did more in 3 days than any other mainstream company since the first mainstream game got released.
Just an unrelated question: how many audio game developers can you list that are mainstream gamers as well? I don't think that the list would contain more than five. Sadly, this shows. Both in audio game sound design, gameplay, etc. We are playing the same style of games for tens of years.
Yes, Steam is a disgrace for not caring about accessibility. Yes, the client could be a lot more accessible on Windows, and especially on other platforms. But we cannot disregard it just because of this fact. It exists, it is a part of people's life, and, no matter how hard to accept, a milestone for the future. If we stop here, we will be playing TDV and RailRacer in 30 years still. Do not take it the wrong way, these games are good on their own, but there is a time when we need to close the gap between mainstream gaming and audio gaming. Currently, the gap is horrendously huge.
I am more than sure that the blind community can make the effort and step forward, no matter what. But sadly, not with an attitude like this.
As a quote says:

When the past keeps tugging you, pulling you back, get strong and look ahead to that bright beautiful future!

Rob

Visit my site
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You can also stop by for a slice of Pi
http://tardis.pw

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2014-01-31 18:45:08

Hi aaron. Just a small correction: You don't even need sighted help to use steam, I created an account and installed the client/skullgirls just fine
without sighted help, just had to ask on twitter for some help. You just have to know what you're doing and it all works good.
and @fastfinge you don't even need the ocr plugin anymore. if you had an open mind to try new things instead of posting more and more
crap here trying to convince people to not play the game, you would have a lot of fun with skullgirls and other games. I already told you I respect
your choice but don't agree with it and never will, so I believe you're losing your time here and I believe you will
continue to get insulted if you continue with that attitude here. Just continue with your life saving more and more money and remember again that we
don't know about the future, I'm not even sure if I'll be here tomorrow so I'm enjoying life in it's fullest.
And by saying that I mean I'm rational with my choices, I won't spend money if I can't, I won't steal anything, bla bla bla. You get the picture.

Best regards: Matheus
Sorry for my bad english, it's not my first language,
contact info: skype: alian_15 msn: [email protected]
email: an[email protected]

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2014-01-31 18:48:07

@aaron: my use of the word disgrace is mostly rhetoric. I'm responding to the 4 people on this forum, thus far, who have basically called me a worthless blindy loser who should go and kill myself just because I dare to disagree and criticize them.  While I do believe that purchasing from steam is the wrong decision, and is extremely harmful to the entire blind community, not just you, it is just entertainment.  If you want to support a company that is happy to deny you accessibility, and locks out many of your fellow blind individuals, I can't stop you. Though it does sadden me.  But steams refusal to provide accessibility tools isn't preventing anyone from getting a job or feeding our children, so feel free to do what you like, and no hard feelings.  But personally, I'd rather miss out on a lot of fun, if it means avoiding lending my support to something that I think is both harmful and terrible to the community. 

Steam is slightly different from other consoles. At least when I did it, it was possible to get a Nintendo account without filling out a CAPTCHA.  As Xbox uses your Microsoft account, an audio captcha is available. I don't know the state of the PSN.  These companies are, at least, just ignoring us.  Steam is not only actively refusing to make changes to help us, they are doing things to make it even harder for us than it already is.  Yeah, the Wii menus are hard. But as with the touch screen on phones, it seems impossible at first, but with a few days practice, you should be able to get the hang of it and not get the wrong menu item anymore.

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2014-01-31 18:51:50

@robjoy: Amazon, Apple, and Google all eventually heard our concerns about accessibility. As these products were fully unusable, it wasn't because we were giving them our money.  When you give any company your money, the message you are sending is that what they are doing is good.  If you contact the company, and make it clear that thousands of people will not buy until things are fixed, that is when you get real change.

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2014-01-31 18:52:55

Oh I forgot to type in the useclipboard thing, but even then it still doesn't work for some reason.

Silly Gohan, animals don't eat people. People eat animals.

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2014-01-31 18:53:51

@drg: So what your post means is that I should either agree with you or shut my stupid face.  Your position is noted.

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2014-01-31 18:56:12

Hi all,
We've got mainstream coverage!
Check out the following article:
http://shoryuken.com/2014/01/31/mike-mi … d-players/

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2014-01-31 19:16:24

@fastfinge: If they know that you are blind from the moment you sign up, and you keep praising their service, donating, sending them emails, then it is indeed a sign of "what they are doing is good". At the moment, there is nothing that would notify them about a person's vision.
Amazon, Apple, and Google did not implement accessibility because they decided to bless us. It happened due to people suing, the accessibility law in the US, etc. The realisation that this would be more profitable came later.
For a huge company such as Valve, a couple thousand people will not matter.
At the moment, your tone really makes people believe that you do not mind personal enjoyment and want to stick to the past, partly because of defiance and partly because you expect things to be fully accessible out of the box. Sadly, accessibility remains a privilege for now. But as awareness rises, this will change.
For instance, I am sure that the next fighter of LabZero will be fully accessible out of the box. And that, believe it or not, is an extremely huge step forward in the history of mainstream gaming for us.
Rob

Visit my site
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You can also stop by for a slice of Pi
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2014-01-31 19:33:57

@robjoy: I think we need to make a distinction between what LabZero does, and what Valve does.  What LabZero is trying to do is a huge step forward, and can only be a good thing.  Unfortunately, because of the horror that is Valve, LabZero cannot be accessible out of the box. They have contracted with Valve to sell the game, and valve is a terrible failure that has fallen down on the job, and undone half of the good work that LabZero is attempting.  From what I have heard, everything LabZero has control over, they have tried to do correctly.  But Valve has no interest in responding to the accessibility needs of customers, and it extends this apathy to its developers, happily screwing any attempts at accessibility they make.  Yes, Steam is a good system. If they supported accessibility, I suspect that most audiogames developers would also use Steam.  For the blind community, that would mean fair DRM, more games because audiogame developers wouldn't need to spend time and money on DRM systems, and more mainstream recognition.  It would also give blind players more and better tools to approach game developers with, when we ask for mainstream accessibility.  The accessibility support from Apple is one reason IOS developers are so receptive to our needs.  If Valve gave a damn about users or developers, they would fix the situation.  As it is, we can only encourage game developers to avoid Steam like the Godawful plague on society it is, and for a few thousand customers, that will never happen. 

I reject totally and completely your statement that accessibility is a privilege.  It is a right, and we need to fight for it like the basic right that it is.  If accepting that accessibility is one of my basic human rights, just like food and shelter, means staying in the past, so be it.  I refuse to bend over to a huge company like Valve, and eat what ever scraps they offer me off of the floor like a dog.  I do believe that if Valve won't follow the accessibility laws, the correct answer is to go to court, not to give them one single penny of the money we've worked twice as hard as the sighted world to earn.

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2014-01-31 19:52:57

Fastfinge

Please delete your acount, and get off the internet. What people have said in previous posts is completely correct. This only encourages stagnation and will not move blind gaming forward at all. I used steam without any sighted help with this guide, and am extremely glad I did. Because not only skullgirls is on steam, but many, many great games as well. Including the you don't know jack games, at an incredible 3 bucks a piece! These were games from my childhood, so I'm more than glad to support them.

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2014-01-31 19:57:29

@stirlock: I already own all of the YDKJ games on CD. You don't need Steam for that, thank God, or I wouldn't support them either. 

If you can't post a message that is free of insults, please go back to living with your mummy and attending pre-school until you can.

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