2006-08-20 18:56:28 (edited by tomi 2006-08-20 22:50:29)

Dear readers,

I'm sure you have heard the news that last month, Microsoft released windows vista beta 2, public build 5384.4. Although this topic is not much related
to audio games,  I will discuss some issues. The problem is, that I only got to try vista for about 7 hours. The reasons I will say in this topic. If you're on a list (such as freelists), please post this message on them. Only on lists that talk about vista though... 

note to The webmasters:
I hope this topic is not too long. I tried to keep it short. Sorry... And no, I will not mind if you delete it. I understand that the forum is not designed for software reviews.

Note: Vista was tested on a computer that contains the following hardware:
ram: 1 gb
processor: Intel (r) t2500 centrino, core duo, running at 2.00 ghz
display: ATI Mobility Radien x1400 
Chassie ttype: laptop
thinkpad t60, bios version 1.09b.

note 2: You might also want to read Paul's review of vista, from a sighted point, at
www.winsupersite.com.
it's under the microsoft platform reviews section...


Having said that, let's begin the review. I hope you'll enjoy it!

General:
I've installed windows vista from a dvd that my cousin Peter gave me. Needless to say, I got real excited about windows vista. All of those legendary new features and looks Paul wrote in his review, got me going. And yesterday, I found out the truth.

installation of vista:
The installation didn't change too much. You pop in you're dvd, click install windows. Then you come to a screen asking you if you want to download updated setup files. It is a good idea to do this ; just in case a fatal error might happen. Ya never know.
After this, you type in you're product key. Then you're asked if you want an upgrade or fresh install. Here's the deal.
In my opinion, it is good to upgrade. Why? Because you get to keep JAWS, existing xp drivers, and other software. For a blind person, this is the best since if you don't have any sound card driver, you're stuck on the ground with vista ; unless you have a sighted person who can read the screen. Also, you don't have the hastle of reinstalling software and games, which is confusing and hard.
I chose upgrade. After this, windows checked you're drivers and software if they are compatible with vista. I only had three things:
ati Catalyst control center
think vantage access connections
Norton antivirus 2006
It is best to uninstall these before proceeding, because they might generate problems. At the time I didn't think of this. Now I kind of regret it... Well I did uninstall norton antivirus since I knew it doesn't work under vista.
You click next, and installation begins. It's a long wait, but Vista will not ask you for anything until setup is done. So just relax and do something.

A note to  freedom scientific and microsoft: Setup bug with jaws:
The title of the setup window is weird. JAWS reads it  as   {1238-bab4586-982jue9-4932}. If you happen to work for ms or FS, just keep this as a note. I'm not sure if this is JAWS's's fault or Microsoft's. Heck, maybe it's no ones. But wen I asked my cousin to find this weird text on the title bar, he didn't. Which is strange.

General:
After vista got installed, my first thing was to  disable UAP. (user account protection). My cousin Mat  did this for me in msconfig. If you have no sighted person around just use narrator and Anna. Now why would you want to disable UAP? Well because Narrator and anna stops working if UAP is on. For some reason, they don't read the screen. I started getting millions of UAp messages right after vista was logged on. Oh yah and the setup said the truth: Think vantage Access connections gave an error right after vista started. Even the IBM (r) Java software did too.

Second, I reinstalled JAWS.  Video intercepting didn't work... The setup of JAWS ran fine. I mean, eloquence and the jaws runtime application loaded ok. So the setup of JAWS is bugless... But after a restart, the trouble began.
Right after I started JAWS, I got an "application file for JAWS has caused this program to shut down" and a close button. And when I clicked it? Well JAWS shut down. Arg! How am I going to use Vista without JAWS?? Well... My friend, this is one of the reasons why I uninstalled Vista in the first place. No jaws, no life for me. Well... But there was a little hope left.
If you go into the C:\progra~1\freedo~1\runtim~1\7.10\ folder, you can run the runtime version of JAWS. Just click on the jfw.exe file.... And JAWS works in runtime mode. But that'as runtime. Meaning that JAWS runs in 40 minute mode, + video intercepting is not used.
So my suggestion: If you did install vista, use the runtime JAWS with it.

Applications and games:
Ok. So while I was using vista, I did explore some of the apps. here's the results:
windows explorer and shell:
For one thing, Microsoft made windows explorer more anoying to the blind than useful. Everytime you open a folder, you need to tab into the list view of that folder. Obviously if you're sighted you can just click in it... There's also a progress bar that appears when you open a folder. This the indexing service ; windows vista indexes the folders you open and stores them so you can access them easily.
My suggestion: For now, go into control panel, click classic view, go into folder options, and click the classic view on the general page. This will stop the tabbing and the progress bars.

General note: The explorer shell is really incompatible with jaws. There's a toolbar that is kind of accessible. but the "web view paine" is totaly inaccessible. Since microsoft built in a search bar, Jaws really can't handle explorer. I'm sure we'll See improvements to it in version 8.0.

Windows mail and jaws: Some of you might of heard that Microsoft renamed Outlook Express to Windows Mail. Why? I really do not know. smile
Windows mail has a new junk mail filtering option, and you also get a "junkmail" folder in you're local folders list. This is kind of nice... The general layout of Windows Mail though, is the same as OE's. So you get the same kind of intro page when you start it up. you navigate the same way as well. Freedom Scientific, Windows Mail is already  done for you. smile At least in this build 5384. Who knows about rc1.

Control panel: Good or bad?
Microsoft remade they're control panel. And I mean it.
Go to start, settings, and control panel. The original version of the control panel is not that accessible with jaws, so I recommend you to push the "classic view" button. This will activate the control panel blind people have come to use and love. But what a surprise! Ms has built 50 items into their control panel. That's twice as much as the 20 or so that is in the xp version of windows. There's no display item for some strange reason. At least in my computer there wasn't. Strange. Well I didn't look through it that much.
The system option is also nicely redone. Wen you click it, you get a sort of web-page type dialog. There you can click device manager,  system properties, and performance. Wen you click one of these, you get into the system properties window.

Windows media player 11:
Wmp 11 has the same layout as wmp10. The runtime JAWS didn't read the buttons of the player. I do not know if this would be the case in the full JAWS version... Otherwise after starting WMP, you need to select the express wizard. After like 5 minutes (in which wmp copies files and sets the player up), you get into the windows media player main window. 

Cd Burning:
What a shock: Microsoft revamped they're cd burning wizard. When you pop in an empty cd, you need to first format it. This kind of reminds of me of Sonic DLA, which is a udf cd burner. (ahem). After formatting, a nice cd burning wizard comes up. There's a next button, but don't click it right away. If you press tab, you get into a nice little edit box which is unlabled with JAWS. In the box you give the label of the cd. After you did this, press enter and the formatting begins. It only takes about 30 seconds though. After this is done, you click ok, go into the start menu, run, and type in d: in the box. you get into a blank folder, which is you're empty cd. It's time to control c and control v : pop open a folder, select a file, press ctrl c, alt tab back, press ctrl v. A nice touch is that windows copies the file to the cd. So unlike in the xp cd wizard, which takes like 5 minutes to cache files, you have the file burnt right away on the disk. As for finalizing the cd, I do not know. Jaws is incompatible with the explorer's web view paine... For now, at least. They say that there's a button to finalize and convert the file system of the cd from udf to cdfs. Yep, windows uses udf. Nice. 

Audio games: Bad news. The first time I started Alien Outback up, I got an "application has failed to start" error. This was ao that can be downloaded from draconis entertainment's website. So I imagine Ao will have to be remade... Shades of doom seemed to work ok though.
When I started solitaire and purble place up, I got a critical error. ? I couldn't read the window since Runtime jaws can't use the virtual viewer...

Performance: On this Centrino machine, Vista ran great. It took about 20 seconds to go into the logon screen, which is really good. There's about a .10 second lag though when you press a key, which is far better then the 1.5 second or so on the old toshiba machine. Keep in mind that JAWS was running as well, too.

Microsoft, how come I have an "older versions" option on my boot menu? I upgraded and I really shouldn't have any older versions of windows installed. When I selected this option with my arrow keys, windows froze.

Conclusions:
At this stage, I do not recommend installing Vista. Why? Well for one thing there's no JAWS. I was using jaws 7.10.452 and it still didn't work... Second, the antivirus software isn't the best that's available for Vista. Ok, I'm not saying that they're the worst antivirus ever made, but it's far from Norton or Mcafee. There is nod32 and avast currently that can really work for Vista. Too bad. Ah well, maybe Rc1.
Speaking of RC1, microsoft is supposed to release RC1 this month. But ya know, the're most of the time off schedule, so expect rc1 in september or so. Microsoft will also offer rc1 as a cpp (customer  preview program) to a few thousand users. And nope, I will not be in that number. I have dial-up. I'm actually lucky to receive this vista from my cousins.

Why did I reinstall xp?
Here are a few reasons for this:
1. No real JAWS.
2. Antivirus. I want something that actually protects my system.
3. mouse. My mouse stopped working after the third or so reboot. Why? No clue. It compeletly disappeared from device manager as well. I have a touchpad and track point. So my sighted peers couldn't use my mouse and computer. I really don't use a mouse, but it can come handy if you're friend is diagnosing you're system.
4. It's a beta. Although I didn't notice any bugs while using windows besides explorer.exe shutting down, I'm sure it does have some. You know how those bugs have a way of suddenly appearing and not going away.


Well I hope you have enjoyed this long and borring review of vista from a blindness perspective. If you have any questions or comments, you can always send me a private message with the e-mail link.

Written by
Tamas Geczy

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-20 22:43:22

Hi Tomi,

Thanks very much for this interesting study. Did you happen to have a look at how accessible the Windows Vista games were? Such as Minesweeper and that sort of stuff? I had a look at Vista in March at the GDC conference and I noticed that the graphics of Minesweeper are now scalable, which makes it more accessible for people with certain visual disabilities. I would love to hear your opinion on the standard games in Windows.

Greets,

Richard

2006-08-20 22:55:49

dear readers,
I have edited the post with a few new additions. It just made it more longer... But there has to be someone who actually notifies the blind community about vista and it's progress. smile

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-20 23:05:24

Hi richard,

I did write a review (
http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=612

In which I do mention the games. They labeled the buttons, which is great. Ya know. In solitaire for instance they have the columns labeled. With a little help from fs and JAWS, I'm sure there would be a way to move the tiles from place to place.

I'm actually glad MS is taking it's time and making vista more accessible. They tried it in xp a bit... I also forgot to mention in my review that Narrator is improved a bit. Sort of... I actually think that they made Anna sound more natural since my last review in april. Now you can select sapi 5 voices from narrator. Unlike in previous builds, where there only was Anna. Nice touch there.

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-21 09:40:09 (edited by cx2 2006-08-21 09:40:27)

This is good to know, a new version of Windows is a big deal to us.

And I personally appreciate off topic threads on such important things. Besides, no windows means no games wink

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2006-08-23 22:15:57

Hi forum,

Ok. A few days ago microsoft changed their shipment schedule for vista. Below is an article about this. The article was written by   Paul Thurrott, the person who wrote the supersite and also  runs several magazines. One of these is called wininfo. So the article is below. Here's the link, just in case:

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/Art … .html?Ad=1


title:
Microsoft Publicly Confirms Windows Vista Ship Schedule, Rejiggers RC1 Plan


"
Exclusive to WinInfo: On Monday, Microsoft publicly reaffirmed its plan to ship a version of Windows Vista to businesses in November and to consumers in
January. But behind the scenes, the company has had to devise a new plan for the Release Candidate 1 (RC1) version of the product after plans to use build
5520 for RC1 fell through.

Microsoft's public discussion about its Vista shipment schedule came from an unexpected source: Timothy Chen, the CEO of the company's greater China region.
"As of now, the release schedule of Vista is unchanged," Chen told reporters Monday. "In a word, Vista for small businesses and consumers will be released
late in the fourth quarter and late January." This announcement confirms a report published last week in WinInfo, which stated that Microsoft wouldn't
bow to widespread public opinion that Vista couldn't be made ready in time for the planned November and January shipping dates.

Meanwhile, inside the software colossus, work continues toward an early September RC1 release for Vista. However, the build previously planned for RC1--build
5520--had two major problems, so Microsoft had to move on to a newer version--build 5536--for RC1. The company plans to ship build 5536 internally today,
according to my sources.

Historically, Microsoft considers RC builds of software products as candidates for the final release. However, with Microsoft not planning to finalize Vista
until sometime in October, it's clear that the Vista RC1 version--whatever the build number--won't be a true candidate for release. It should, however,
be quite a bit more polished than the previous public milestone, Vista Beta 2.



"

hope this helps...

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-25 20:15:34

Hi,
Can you pleas tell me where I can dowload the Beta of Vista?
Thanks.

2006-08-26 22:53:29

hi elliot,

Currently, youreally can't download vista. Microsoft has already shutdown their cpp (customer preview program) for beta 2.

Maybe someone has posted it up online (however, this is mostly unlikely). Also, it is better to get vista builds fom microsoft then to get it from an unknown site. Anyone could modify the image file for vista and maybe even put viruses / exploit bugs in the version.

You're other option would be to sign p for msdn (microsoft developer network) for a few hundred dollars. This way you will have access to all the beta software microsoft releases on dvd. I really do not know about the pricing, though and who is elegible to join the site. To me, however, it sounds like only dsoftware developers can join.

hope this helps.

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-27 16:21:32

hi,
i don't think it's fair that you have the beta and non of us have it. Can you send it then?

2006-08-27 19:18:58

hi,

Unfortunetly, I can't.

My cousin did not give me a copy of the dvd ; they only had one copy. So at this moment I do not have vista, only 5308 (feburary 2006 version) which I got from a p2p site. But that one was filled with bugs.

The hole image file of vista is about 4 gb, so it would take for ever to upload. +, not many servers offer a  4 gb size. I'm actually using dial-up, which goes with 2 or 3 kbps for a download.

Regards:

tomi

2006-08-28 06:03:53

Elliott:
If Microsoft offered a public download then it was for a limited period, and everyone missed their chance.

If it was a download only for certain people this was done intentionally as a sort of beta test.

I doubt somehow MS would release it for public download since it could cost them money. And besides, installing beta versions of an operating system is only advisable for very advanced users who want to check software compatibility and the like. For regular use you should stick with the full release version.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.