2011-06-28 13:41:58

hi all. i want to see what are your opinions when talking about these systems
for the portable devices. when adi talked about the iphone in the other topic i was wondering:
when i talk about releasing an online version of certain game for the symbian platform with a
developer,he says "symbian is/will be outdated in months", use iphone or android. now here's
the thing: if you don't have a bt keyboard and want to easyly set a clock alarm,find a old
message that you received two weeks ago, set an event in the calendar for the next week or so,
you can do it much faster using the symbian phones,at least that's how i see it,i can't say
for sure because i used an ipod for only 5 or 10 minuts,and although the experience
was great,i think i'll never want to use a touch based mobile phone in the future,or at least
if i use it,i want a qwerty keyboard,not having to carry a stupid bt keyboard with me,
like others have pointed out,it takes the portability out of the device,not totaly,but partly.
i've never used android or windows mobile,so can't comment on that. what about windows phone 7?
nokia will switch to that in a few months,is there accessibility built into it?
i don't espect much,because that's m$s$, lol. all right, so now what are your opinions?

contact info
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matrheine at gmail . com

2011-06-28 13:47:23

hi. also feel free to say what phone model you're using.
currently i'm using a nokia e71,i love the qwerty keyboard,i can even type faster
than i can on my girlfriend's netbook. also apps that i use are the beyocbs reader,
vizion hunt,fring for msn,skype,tweets 60 and more.
i just wish the processor was a little better,but well,i can survive with it,smiles.

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matrheine at gmail . com

2011-06-28 14:54:47

As for symbian, it's outdated or at least, not that many people are writing apps for it any more. Windows phone seven isn't accessible to the blind at this time. Android you will have to find a screen reader to install on it. The android based phones can come with a bilt in keyboard. Of the three different OS platforms you brought up, asuming that symbian isn't counted any more, IOS is the most accessible, but less flexable.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2011-06-29 16:53:26

I don't see how iOS is less flexible. While admittedly you are limited to the app store there is plenty of choice in there, and anything in the app store is written using Apple's own developer tools which try to lean towards making accessible apps without the developer even having to intentionally do so.

Symbion isn't a bad platform but I do imagine mainstream users will either buy a generic phone with no OS in particular or else go Apple, Android or Windows phone. Windows phone hasn't had a lot of popular success so far but with Nokia making the switch this might give it the backing it needs, you never know. On the other hand it might be the death knell for Nokia.

iOS is most definitely the most accessible though and I gather that from the introduction of iOS5 they'll come with triple click home to turn on Voice Over as on by default, presently it's needs to be turned on. Now since anyone buying from an Apple store can ask them to activate it for them, something they advertise their willingness to do, this means you could buy an iOS device and with three clicks of one button it's accessible right away. If someone bought a car charger and had access to a car socket on the way to wherever they're going next you could even start using it right away.

I'll admit it does take longer to put contacts and calendar entries into an iPhone than a symbion phone but the contacts and calendar options are more flexible in themselves so that's a trade off. The touch screen typing takes some getting used to but it isn't too bad most of the time, and you don't even need to type in the date you just swipe up/down for each part.

Currently iPhone 3GS, previously Nokia E65 and Nokia NGage.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-06-29 17:51:44

Well, the only bad thing about IOS is its cost, a few hundred dollars isn't something people just fin lying around somewhere, LOL. So, for my December upgrade, I'll be getting a droid 2 or similar android phone.

Devin Prater
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2011-06-29 21:43:53

Disclaimer, UK prices here. Equivalents may vary but the Apple stuff tends to come out relatively more expensive here in the UK because Apple don't understand what an exchange rate is. Still iOS isn't that bad.

iPhone 16GB: £400
Symbion phone: around £200 plus £150 for Talks
I can't confirm the price of Android phones though they will likely be less, I'm a little concerned about accessibility though. I can't be messing with anything that requires sighted help to set up, I have no reliable sighted assistance at all. Sure I can ask mum when she comes round but that gets rarer and rarer, plus she seems to put off helping me when it's even vaguely technical. It'd take months to get help setting up an Android phone, if I was lucky.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-06-30 00:25:01

It isn't just the app store that is limited. The will that the home screen looks is limited to some decree too. For example, in can only have 12 apps per folder and 16 folder per page on the home screen. This not count the four folder or app on the dock. If you want more per page, you will have to jail break the device, and of course the only way you can get apps on the device is threw the app store. Endroid doesn't have to get apps from the endroid market place and you can get different endroid phones with different hardware features. With the IPhone, all you really get, is a touch screen based device. From the best of my knowledge, the IPhone is the most accessible main stream smart phone on the market.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2011-06-30 01:44:20

Firstly if you try putting more than 16 icons on the home screen you're going to run into problems finding them with your fingers, and yes touch and drag navigation is very intuitive. Secondly if 16X12=184 apps on your home screen isn't enough for you then you have bigger problems. Thirdly there isn't much wrong with using multiple pages, it's easy enough to do, just organise them logically such as one for media and entertainment type stuff and another for GPS and general out and about stuff. Of all the limits that may exist in the iPhone this is the least of them.

Android phones may vary in features but honestly I'd be worried if these features would be accessible, and if it isn't accessible it might as well not exist to me. And like I said I've thus far not found the app store a real limitation, any apps found from outside the app store are even less likely to be accessible than those found within it. Like I said apps in the apple app store must be written using Apple's own XCode software which tries to tag the app for accessibility without the developer's input, it takes real effort to make an iOS app which has nothing show up to Voice Over even if it isn't accessible. Given the choice I'll stick to the app store where accessibility is at least more likely, even though I will admit I'm not sure the app store restriction is good practice.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-07-01 08:47:42

Hi.
I agree on what have been said here. IOS have its advantiges and disadvantiges.
Regarding touchscreens, I'm an experienced user. when you've got used to how it works, you can navigate on it much quicker than on a Symbian phone with phisical  buttons. It's pretty hard to explain in short words, but that's possible if you combine the different swipes and touches. let me know if you need any examples.
Typing on a touchscreen will never be as fast as a standard phone with a phisically numpad keyboard and t9 mode. The way it works with Voiceover is simply not fast enough. Well, being an experienced user it goes pretty fast anyway if you are the kind of person who just write short messages. So it depends on what you want. if you want a phone with lots and lots of features and awesome accessibility, the Iphone is for you. If you wanna type long messages and yu don't wanna have an external device with you, a touch screen isn't the right choice for you. Neither the Iphone or any Android phone with a touch screen. If you are the more geeky person, an Android phone is for you. You just have to know that there are some accessibility issues and you really have to know how things works to get it all to work as you wants to.
I've had the followin phones: Nokia N gage running Talks, Nokia 6680 running Mobile speak, HTC S 710 running Mobile speak, HTC S 730 running Mobile speak, HTC S 740 and currently an Iphone 3g S. I'm considering an Android phone as my secondary phone just to see how things works. smile

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2011-07-01 14:24:52

Hi,

Ok, i'll try to make a rundown as detailed as I can make it:
Symbian:
- this is pretty much nokia's os and certainly has its perks. Often there is t9 or at least a physical keyboard of sorts available, and loads of features you might need are already integrated into most phones. I have used a nokia n82 for 2 years, it had a web browser, wifi, gps, bluetooth, a music player, file manager, a decent camera (5 megapixel) ...
The few apps i downloaded for it were sort of accessible. Sometimes I had to grab an older version of an app for it to work, im+ was notorious for this. I could do most of what i needed with it but after a while i encountered problems. The phone would hang, get memory leaks, it wouldn't be able to render large textiles ...i had some issues.
I could however type quite fast on the numeric keypad it had, something i miss a lot. When my symbian device started to go, i started considering Ios. I heard there were loads and loads of accessible apps for it, something i found lacking more and more. THe nokia store was completely unusable in my time and a lot of stuff just didn't work the way i wanted it to. About a year ago i made the switch to IOS.

IOS:
- The accessibility of these devices easily surpasses anything else that exists today. You can talk long or short about it but that is just how things are right now . Android is getting there (more on that below), windows mobile 7 is currently access-less altogether although it is rumored accessibility has been found in the SDK of mango. Anyway, back to IOS. If you transition from symbian, it takes a bit of getting used to. At first I had a lot of trouble to enter my wifi password or even pin number because it is just very different. If you persist and learn though, you can pick up the basics pretty fast. Typing however, at least in my case, even after a year of use, has slowed down to at least half the speed i am used to, a quarter on a bad day. This is not apple's fault, its just the way touch screens work. There is just no other way for this to be sped up in my view. Apple has done all they can with touch typing, this does speed things up but not enough in my humble opinion. I used to like texting but now i find it a bit of a bother to pick up my device, peck out a message in 2 minutes which used to take 30 seconds.
So if you are a frequent typer, IOS may not be for you unless you get your claws on a bluetooth keyboard or perhaps a braille display with input possibilities. Since the release of IOS 4 last year, braille displays are supported so you might go that route.
For the rest though, the iPhone is a very good smartphone. Like symbian, a lot of functionality is built in, however in my opinion there's less then in symbian for some things,

- file manager: this does not exist on a stock iPhone and cannot be fully realized using an app unless you jailbreak. Apps like filer allow you to basically create a sandbox environment to put your files in, but it does not let you access your iPhone's filesystem outside this sandbox.
- bluetooth transferring: This does not exist on a stock iPhone, and there's a roundabout way to do it if you jailbreak your phone.
- mms: this was added only very recently to the iPhone.
- downloading of files: this cannot be done using the safari browser installed on a stock iPhone, unless you jailbreak it or just an alternative app like Filer.

IOS, as you can see above, is quite a bit more locked down then symbian or android. The need to use iTunes to sync music to your device is, in my opinion, very restrictive and should not be necessary. Even with wireless syncing in iOS 5, iTunes remains a necessity which in my opinion should be shipped out the nearest airlock.
When it comes to apps, IOS shines. There's literally hundreds of accessible apps you can install, and it is true thatMOST apps are written using apple's developer tools. This however is no longer the case for all apps. In september last year apple has relaxed their terms of service regarding app development allowing third-party tools to e used.
Also, for some apps apple's basic oils are not enough so custom tools which often are not accessible and in very rare cases cannot be made accessible have to be used.
Another ironic about apps in the appstore that is currently almost too much of a bother if you want to develop an app for IOS if you are blind. It simply isn't accessible enough to lay out controls and such.
Jailbreaking is a way to get around most of Apple's  limitations and I offer help about that if anyone requires it, I have done it often enough to know what I am doing. I am certainly not sad about having chosen IOS as my primary phone platform, but i do lament my typing speed decrease and my jumping through hoops for some basinal functionality i've come to expect from a stock smartphone. Accessibility-wise though, and don't get me wrong it is certainly not perfect in all regards, Apple owns em all. I repeat: IT IS NOT PERFECT! I see more and more people converting to the apple religion refusing to hear a single word of criticism about apple and blaming it on user error, uncomfortable with a new device or just denying it being a problem. APPLE IS NOT PERFECT! THEY MAKE MISTAKES JUST LIKE YOU AND ME! BUGS DO EXIST IN APPLE PRODUCTS. Ok, rant over.

- windows mobile: about this one i cannot say much because I haven't used it much myself. Its accessibility can be compared to that of symbian up to 6.5 but windows 7 is currently fully inaccessible. You have more variety when it comes to hardware configurations but less apps and customization chances.

- Android:
The last one , but not the least one. Google's track record when it comes to accessibility is rather ...up and down.  Android accessibility is ...getting there, but it is not quite there yet. Android has some things for it going:
- loads of different devices, both touch screen and non-touchscreen and even hybrids
- fully open platform: Install what you want, break whatever you want, do whatever you want.
- ease of development: When developing for IOS, you are stuck with objective-c for most stuff. This works on IOS and mac natively, and on windows and linux if you install a relatively unknown platform called GNU step.
Android however requires Java ( yes yes, i know the accessibility horrors associated with that language) which runs on far more devices.

Now, the disadvantages:
- android OS requires quite a bit of processing power. This means that getting an inexpensive android device can be a bit of a chore.
- Because Android is open, there is nothing that prevents you from getting viruses or malware on your device except a virus scanner. Jus like a pc.
- Android updates are handled by your carrier so you might have to wait for updates to reach you for quite a bit of time.
- While IOS offers you a way to enable accessibility without sighted help, android does not. There is a roundabout way of doing it through the command line but on most phones access to this functionality has to be enabled on the phone first, which requires sighted help.
- the accessibility of android apps varies, i think the accessibility of apps is a bit lower then those on iOS but its not a big drop.

I hope this was useful,
Balliol

2011-07-01 16:46:14

Just as a note iOS doesn't benefit from a file manager due to its design structure. This is one case where it really is true that people are just having trouble adjusting to the concept, the idea is you browse through your content using the app you want to use not by browsing the directories themselves. Instead of directories and folders you look through music artists or other more natural concepts. On the other hand I'll admit the ability to download audio files in Safari and import them to the iPod app would be nice, as would the ability to download podcasts without needing iTunes. The same could be extended to PDF files in iBooks of course.

I don't think anyone here is saying Apple is perfect, while that does happen I haven't noticed any rabid members of the Cult of Apple here. I use the iPhone because I'm happy with the way it works, simple as that. That and the fact that I resent having to deal with Google and its products any more than I have to.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-07-01 17:08:39

CX2:

I haven't checked the populace for apple fanboys thats why i put in that warning. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. On the file browser: I agree with you, partly. While it is true that apps facilitate your filesystem access by putting it into easy-to-use ' folders'  if you will, the ability to access the filesystem directly should be available in my opinion. It is based on a unix operating system where this kind of access can sometimes benefit users. Also, the mac's filesystem is readily accessible to all who want to venture and the link between iPhone and mac is growing every day. Will we be limited to the same way of using apps for content on a mac in 5 years? I hope not

Balliol

2011-07-01 18:59:02

Why do we need access to the file system? I say this as someone who spent 4 years studying software development just as a note, I'm not just a basic user.

Accessing the file system is crucial for development but then that's why there are development tools for iOS. Once upon a time it was essential because there was no shell with which to list software, thus you had to find the program you wanted to run through the file system. If like in the Mac software is bundled into a single file, and if the settings are all contained in a single folder within the device where it can easily be deleted by the operating system when the software is removed, what do we actually need access to the file system for? iOS may be based on Unix but it is as different to Unix as Mac is to Windows as far as the user is concerned, and 99% of the users wouldn't care to get involved with the file system even if they knew it was there.

I would submit the notion that having access to the file system is a legacy concept which we're all used to, and many of us are loathed to give up, but which isn't actually necessary in modern environments. The file system must exist but only developers really need to handle it, and this can be done with additional tools so that users are shielded from things that will only confuse them and potentially cause problems.

As it happens I also find I'm using the file system on my Mac less and less, in fact almost never. The only time I'm handling it is when I sent files to friends using Skype but even that could be handled better by having files categorised by type and further categorised if needed by meta data.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-07-01 23:13:42

Hello CX2,

I do not doubt you competence using computers, I have read loads of posts by you thinking ' ah good. Finally someone who knows his stuff'  big_smile
As for your little discussion, you are quite correct. A lot of users will be content to just access whatever they need using apps. Theres also people who will like the ' freedom'  if you will that access to the filesystem provides. This allows for a more controlled environment for making small tweaks to existing stuff. An example of this for example is modifying device strings, something thats quite popular among a certain brand of individuals. I do hope you agree with me on a fact: a better solution needs to be developed to get files off your computer to your device. iTunes itself can only sync media files, and if you want to add different content you have to use the filesharing capabilities of the apps sandboxes to get those in there. Although this does make for a very sorted environment, the time this takes can be quite much when you compare it to simply shoving some stuff on a sd card to check out later.  Add to that the fact that iTunes is quite slow in some situations and it could ba bit inaccessible to do some tasks. These two things seem unrelated but they really are not, you should know this. I myself am going to study for being a software developer in a year ...what languages are you proficient in?

Florian

2011-07-02 01:21:23

I don't dispute that locking it to iTunes is less than ideal. How about something like:
-Apple stops trying to block other software from communication with the iOS devices
-If not already present Apple creates and allows access to an XML file with which all media files must be registered with
-Said XML file, and by extension iTunes and other syncing software, allow users or apps to add new content types other than those included by default.

I also do agree that many people wish to tweak their devices, however Apple have never catered to this kind of attitude which is more common among competent enthusiasts. That's a niche filled in the mainstream market better by Android, only due to the lack of Linux for phones frankly, sadly I don't see Apple moving into that market and such systems tend to require more effort to make accessible because of their innate diversity.

As to languages, well I haven't done much with my qualifications thus far what with the difficulty in getting work when you're blind and so on around here. I did learn visual basic but that was when I was using magnification not purely screen readers, similarly the college's java environment wasn't accessible so that was a pain. C++ was something I used but we did use only the DOS version and didn't make any Windows interfaces, also we did some work with Linux but the screen reader was very poorly set up and again it was all text only output with no buttons etc. I have heard of environments with the ability to specify positions and sizes of input objects by text, perhaps one of these might be best. I keep meaning to teach myself to use these but between one thing and another I just never get to it sadly.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2011-07-04 08:42:36

Hi.
Regarding the file browser, you can use Disc aid on your computer which is a awesome pease of software, and File app pro on your phone.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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