26

One more, @23 could very well be taken as an attack despite the tongue emoticon at the end, that'd depend entirely on context. Personally I found that a funny dig at Orko's history of deleting posts and I feel like something like that is perfectly fair game to poke fun at and in any way not a personal attack. My concern with this is it'll drive people off of making jokes and ribbing other members for fear of getting hit with a warning for 'crossing the line'....wherever that line actualy happens to be.ribi

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27

I've been looking at ironcross' post, and I haven't really seen something that was worth banning him honestly.
He simply stated (in a pissed harsh way) that the guy (cacio) had to stop using the blindy excuse all the time, which I actually agree with. If then however, we are talking about the unhealthy abits, I don't really think that is a personal attack either. But everyone might have a different point of view than mine, and I'm cool with it. I'll just say that I believe the ban  wasn't worth. It might have been a rude post, but that did not seem a personal attack  to me. I'd  agree that at the extreme status he could have receive a warning, but I wouldn't say that the post 69 is worth a ban.

If you want to get in touch with me you can follow me on Twitter
have a nice day.
Paul

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28

personally i agree with 25. but then again we are in the age of wining bitching and complaining and effectively stabbing each other in the back rather than just getting on with it.
yeah i have a friend and we call each other all sorts of names we obviously don't mean it to each other and sometimes we try and outdo each other to see who can come up with the shittiest name but it's all in jest. the problem is that if people actually listened and paid attention to what's going on rather than going off half cocked at any given moment then half of these problems wouldn't exist. but again we aren't in a world of common sense. too many lawmakers too much of this i'm going to take you to court crap and wayyyyyy too much political correctness. people get offended at the stupidest of things and sometimes i find that far more amusing than the original cause of the so-called offence.

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@Darren: That's nothing new, the whining, bitching and backstabbing...it's just history repeating itself. Only, in this case it's not a literal stab in the back...though admittedly I do think some people in life would be better off with a sharp pointy thing shoved into their spine. Hey. It worked throughout history didn't it? Not that I'm advocating going around wanting to shank people mind, but a metaphorical knife in the back hurts more than an acttual lump of metal jammed into your spine frankly. I'd argue if anything...this PC age is stifling discussion. It's like....a guy I was at college with went off on somebody for..the crime....wait for it...of noticing he was blind. He went on a full on bitchfest bout how being told he was blind 'hurt his felings'. Sounds familiar to a recent topic really...but I'd say if you're on the internet, and you've got a thin skin, get a thicker skin and learn when to wade into an argument or when to just let atacks bounce off your thick skin...because no matter where you go online you'll end up upsetting somebody and they'll attack you for....whatever reason they feel like. You can make al the rules you like but people will still attack. You ban them? They make new accounts.

The best way to defuse drama...is simply to not let it get to you...like if you said I was a fucktard for liking an audiogame and I should go jump in a hole, I could fire back all guns blazing, or...I could just not respond, regardless of if other people do.

Also I'm also of the opinion we acttually do need people going off on others to some degree. It's a great stress reliever and the resulting posts are highly entertaining. Madi's ones in the Life in World topic (the first few pages) make me smile reading them given how entertaining they were. Yes, I find things like reading flame wars etertaining given nobody actually gets hurt by it for the most part. Plus flame wars help people get anger out of their systems, don't they?

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30

OK, so I just read the topic about game moderators gagging people, and I posted my opinion on there. Also @Dark, if you want to know a specific topic where I crossed the line, check the topic you closed a while ago about training materials.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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31

While I don't like seeing anybody getting banned, there comes a time when you've exhausted all amicable options, yet the unwanted behavior continues, in such cases, something more drastic is needed, so in this case I'll side with the moderators and their decision.

Hopefully Ironcross will return and not be so contentious towards everybody and their opinions, yet I wonder, because he's said a number of times that he is who he is and won't change just to make somebody else happy.

But, time will tell.

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32

@Orko: You're not innocent either however, so I'd take your own words to heart as you've ben the cause of drama on the forums as well though. Maybe you should take note of what you said. You've been contentious toward people as well on the forum about certain issues though so don't act all innocent....because none of us are innocent of having issues with other people on the forums.

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33

Firstly I don't really see either what this has to do with political correctness or with joking insults.

the rule about personal attacks is not about language, but intent, its also been a regular rule on this forum for at least the last ten years, if not longer.

We've got plenty of joking insults on  forum and as long as its clear everyone is joking I don't really see the problem, the occasions Ironcross has been warned in the past however were anything but.

Also, I repeat post 69 of  Caccio's topic was not! the specific reason Ironcross was banned. Mod warnings are cumulative, we all know that.

Recently, another member was banned for ignoring several warnings about  cracked games and software, while a second member has received two warnings on the subject.
Mod action has always been cumulative, had this been Ironcross first occasion of stepping over the line, he would at most have got a warning, it is the knock on effect.

Lastly I'm afraid the arguement of blaming someone for holding an unpopular view or "starting drama", instead of the person who actually gets personal makes no sense at all.


I don't think any judge would go along with the argument "well it wasn't my fault I hit him your honour, he got me annoyed and started it!"

I hope this all makes sense.

I have explained the decision as best I can, I have also given examples in post 17 of what I am talking about so that things are absolutely clear.

I apologise if people do not understand, to me the distinction has always been a very obvious matter of simple politeness, and (I would hope), given that we've rarely had to engage in these sorts of brute force moderation tactics over the 14 years this forum has been running, a matter which is fairly evident to the majority of our members too.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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34

I just read through this thread and I want to respond to some statements that keep popping up despite others having already explained them.

There are multiple posts where people are saying things like "what Ironcross said in that post shouldn't deserve a ban".  By itself, and if said by a person with a clean record, then no of course not.  We are specifically talking about a person who has been given many warnings, and has been spoken with in emails about his behavior.  If people want to Pretend that this single post caused a spotless member of the community to receive a ban, just so they can complain about said ban, then clearly you aren't trying to have an honest discussion here.  We all know from countless real-life situations that when you've messed up over and over, and been given warnings over and over, when you finally get slapped it isn't because of the final last time you messed up.  It is from everything added up.

Shotgunshell (and others), there is no point trying to show how you may have "crossed the same line" that Ironcross did.  Get yourself a dozen warnings for personal attacks, and then you may see the same results.  You can't compare the punishments of 2 people if they don't have the same history.

JaceK, I personally agree that the PC age is stifling discussion.  In general I'd say it's a bad thing, but I also believe that we need to respect the rules of where we are.  Agree with them or not, this forum has a set of rules we must all agree to in order to be here.  Other forums had their own sets of rules, and the specific rules is actually why some people choose to use one message board over another.  It is also a reason for people to be a part of multiple forums, so they can do different things on each one.

If you want to exchange jabs and insults with a friend, there are places that allow you to do just that.  I run Swamp with a more hands-off approach, because I want it to be less restricted (but with some limits of course).  You could also exchange private messages on here and be able to say far more than you could on the public threads.

What can and what can not be said on this forum is the same as other restrictions we find in other places.  Want to slash other players in the face with your sword?  Well some games let you do that while others do not.  Some will have dedicated places for attacking other players, so that everyone knows what they're getting into and can act accordingly.  We deal with this stuff everywhere, but for some reason people like to pretend they have no idea how the world works when it suits them.  How often do we hear someone go on some self-righteous rant starting with "Freedom of speech!", when they're in a situation that clearly has nothing to do with the American first amendment.  They'll be kids in a Chinese chat room, suddenly believing that a part of the US constitution means they can ignore the rules and say whatever they want.  It's insanity, and I can never tell if the people are fully aware of how absurd it is (just trolling), or if they're actually too stupid to see the situation for what it is.  LOL!

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

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35

If he's being banned for everything he's done before than he should of been a  while ago. Saying post 69 triggered the ban however, that sounds right out sensitive to me. From what I read, his posts might of been harsh but they're only suggestions. If we're going by harshness then hell I can count a few posts  where even some of the moderators were harsh themselves. So I'm sure it is a, oh you know, we've been meaning to ban this person but we just put it so down the list that now when he is trying to help someone with, clearly a mistake on their part, yeah this guy isn't shutting up, sure let's bring up that ban issue again why don't we.

Greetings.
My twitter

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36 (edited by shotgunshell 2018-10-11 22:00:53)

@Dark I agree, moderator warnings should be cumulative, but what I don't get is what was wrong with that post. All he did was tell the guy that he needs to stop the blindy excuse bullshit, which as far as I'm aware doesn't break any rules whatsoever. Ethin had made a post earlier in that topic that was way worse, and he's said a lot of things before that was uncalled for, so why did he get away with that. I made a post about a week ago that can be considered borderline insulting, so why didn't I get warned for that?
@Aprone Look man, I'm gonna be honest with you, I hate ironcross and most of his posts, and I'm pretty much always against him. However, I will repeat what I said above because it cannot be stressed enough, he did not say anything in that post that broke any rules. Just last week I said things that were insulting and I got away with not even so much as a slap on the wrist.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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I mean, that if you didn't write this down, like hey, i let everyone know that we banned this and that, they wouldn't start to argue here and you wouldn't have to give other bans, too. And you wouldn't have to waste your time with reading disagreements. Although as i said, i saw exactly nothing, so i don't know about the case but still, i don't know if it's a wise decision to put out everything in a topic where people may lose their controll, not only Yroncross, and then you could create more and more topics like x and y has been banned.

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@MasterOfDeath But then, people will just send pm's or emails to the mods asking about why this is happening. Either way, they're going to be questioned about certain actions because it's felt by some people that the actions taken by the mods were questionable.

If anyone wants to add me on Skype, it's garrett.brown2014.

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@Amine, I'm not really sure of the logic here.
How can a ban resulting from cumulative offenses be applied until those offenses have, ---- well accumulated?

Secondly, it is not about being "harsh" it is about getting personal (really, how many times do I need to explain this). 

@Shotgunshell, we are quite aware of other members with behaviour issues, and likely more warnings on the subject will occur in the future, however this was specifically about the instance with ironcross.

@Master of death, Yes, this topic is becoming heated, though as I said nobody has got personal which is good. However, I don't think the situation would've been improved had Ironcross account got mysteriously banned and nobody was sure what for.

Also, it was my hope that people might understand the reason why! things got so drastic with ironcross and perhaps learn to control their behaviour in the future, thus making  moderator actions less necessary.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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@JaceK

While you might think that it is a barrel of laughs to poke fun at me because I delete my own posts when I get a moderation warning because of them, consider how you would feel if somebody decided to poke fun at you for something you do or say, I'd dare say that you wouldn't think it's so funny any more. Nobody likes being laughed at.

Also, show me where I've said that I am innocent of being too aggressive towards other people, I don't recall ever saying or even hinting that I'm any better than anyone else here. Or did you just dream that up to give yourself an excuse to pick at me?

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41

Moderation!

Okay this topic is now being closed before people start chucking around even more by way of accusations.

@Orko, telling someone what they "think" or   accusing someone of laughing at you is not going to help the situation and is edging towards personal attacks in and of itself, especially in such a fraught situation as this topic.

As regards the larger situation, We have attempted to explain our reasoning and give people  chances to respond, now however it seems to be heading towards a personal slagging match between members I would prefer to head the flame train off at the pass.

This topic will also be moved to site and forum feedback as well.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

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