2018-09-19 12:04:23

They did say on the podcast that not everything is going to be crammed into a single version this year. That's why it seems like it should be an update rather than an upgrade. Remember too that due to how Windows 10 is changing, they're having to change how they do things as wel. I'm not sure what the development is like on NVDA or if they had to do things differently due to the way Windows 10 changes.

JAWS and NVDA both have their pros and cons. I really don't think we can objectively say one is truly better than the other. I use JAWS because I've always used JAWS, and I personally don't really care for how NVDA handles some things. I can afford to keep my SMA current, so I keep it current. If there came a time when I couldn't keep it current, I would probably consider switching to NVDA and learn how to use it. It's just sad that every topic I've seen about JAWS turns into NVDA users bashing JAWS and Freedom Scientific. maybe someone should get on the next FS Open Line and bring this stuff up instead of just bashing on a forum.

2018-09-19 12:08:15 (edited by hadi.gsf 2018-09-19 12:09:31)

Do you have to pay to upgrade from jaws 2018 to 2019? if yes then the changelog sounds like a joke to me. I wonder if FS has begun to troll the organizations, schools and governments by making minor changes in major version upgrades.
p.s. NVDA OCR which uses windows 10 OCR beats jaws OCR by a lot. I use it to play mainstream games like fifa, injustice 2  and  stuff like that.
The only reason i'm using jaws is  hotspot clicker, which NVDA has  no alternative. VMouse exists, but the author won't respond to me, I need to be able to save more than 50 hotspots.

twitter: @hadirezae3
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2018-09-19 13:19:01

I don't remember NVDA users bashing JAWS. actually, hang on.
What's New in NVDA
2018.4
New Features
• New braille tables: Chinese (China, Mandarin) grade 1 and grade 2. (#5553)
• Replied / Forwarded status is now reported on mail items in the Microsoft Outlook message list. (#6911)
Changes
• "Report help balloons" in the Object Presentations dialog has been renamed to "Report notifications" to include reporting of toast notifications in Windows 8 and later. (#5789)
• IN NVDA's keyboard settings, the checkboxes to enable or disable NVDA modifier keys are now displayed in a list rather than as separate checkboxes.
• NVDA will no longer present redundant information when reading clock system tray on some versions of Windows. (#4364)
• Updated liblouis braille translator to version 3.7.0. (#8697)
Bug Fixes
• In Outlook 2016/365, the category and flag status are reported for messages. (#8603)
• When NVDA is set to languages such as Kirgyz, Mongolian or Macedonian, it no longer shows a dialog on start-up warning that the language is not supported by the Operating System. (#8064)
• Moving the mouse to the navigator object will now much more accurately move the mouse to the browse mode position in Mozilla Firefox, Google Chrome and Acrobat Reader DC. (#6460)
• Interacting with combo boxes on the web in Firefox, Chrome and Internet Explorer has been improved. (#8664)
Changes for Developers
• gui.nvdaControls now contains two classes to create accessible lists with check boxes. (#7325)
◦ CustomCheckListBox is an accessible subclass of wx.CheckListBox.
◦ AutoWidthColumnCheckListCtrl adds accessible check boxes to an AutoWidthColumnListCtrl, which itself is based on wx.ListCtrl.
• If you need to make a wx widget accessible which isn't already, it is possible to do so by using an instance of gui.accPropServer.IAccPropServer_impl. (#7491)
◦ See the implementation of gui.nvdaControls.ListCtrlAccPropServer for more info.
Changes for Developers
• Updated configobj to 5.1.0dev commit 5b5de48a. (#4470)
damn, that's already longer than JAWS 2019, and we're talking of, beta! the fact is, JAWS back in the days, really was great, from what I'm seeing, especially on older versions of JAWS, and windows. the question is, what happened? what happened to the old days of JAWS? why did it go down hill the way it has? I think there's a difference between bashing, and constructive, factual, complaints. I'd bring it up myself, but not having a valid JAWS license, we all know how far it would get...

2018-09-19 13:38:09

Why does everyone on the forum hate JAWS? It is very good and there are some new interesting features in this thing, like the ducking feature which should now be working and the tab key.

2018-09-19 15:06:11 (edited by flackers 2018-09-19 15:06:57)

I just tried the beta, and it does speed up the start time on win 10. On my 7 PC jaws 2018 starts immediately after the startup chime, but on 10 there's a 10 second delay. That's completely gone with 2019. I now view the Jaws SMA as a subscription fee, but it's still worth it because jaws does have some unique and powerful features, and it just feels smoother to use probably due to familiarity. As for constructive criticism versus bashing, you have to be able to put your hand on your heart and say you want both jaws and NVDA to be the best they can be so that every blind user has the greatest opportunity to use a PC effectively. If you're hoping jaws will fail, then your criticism won't be constructive. At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I pay for jaws and donate to NVDA, , so any criticism is always in the hope things will improve rather than in the hope it will lead to downfall.

2018-09-19 15:30:49

Well, I only need jaws for one thing, and that is the jaws cursor for NHL 2004, nothing more is required of that thing.

Greetings Moritz.

Hail the unholy church of Satan, go share it's greatness.

2018-09-19 15:33:09

@Enes, could you guide me on how to enable UIA for office on NVDA? I would highly appreciate it.

2018-09-19 15:49:02

hi afrim,
go to users\username\apdata\roming\nvda and open the nvda.ini file, and add the following line to the end.
['UIA']['useInMSWordWhenAvailable'] = true
I hope they take advantage of this for all the other microsoft office products. You will know  when it worked, when nvda will read the word document as multiline edit.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2018-09-19 20:48:05 (edited by Nikola 2018-09-19 20:50:53)

Eventually they will, but for now UIA support is highly experimental and thus hidden. As somebody said, nobody is really bashing jaws as a whole. But this changelog is just bad. Echoing of tab key is the most ridiculous thing ever. We realize our users cannot change that setting, so we will just do it for them, and hey that's a feature right there even though it's not coded, just changing one flag. Jaws was one of the first screen readers, and thus should have everybody's respect. I am talking about modern tech and recent Jaws updates though, where it has very little respect and just feels very, very rushed. NVDA is open source, it has it's flaws, but it also has a strong community behind it so even if NV access does not do anything, there will be something for a new version. Lots of recent new features in fact do not come from NV access at all. Automatic braille display detection is a great example.

2018-09-19 21:10:31

@Enes, I did what you said, but when going to the location you specified, I can find only nvda which is a configuration setting file. There's another one, which has a .ani extension, but it is, however, a tmp file. Am I missing something?

2018-09-19 21:28:15

It is the correct file, but you do not have extensions enabled and thus it only says NVDA.

2018-09-19 22:22:04

Ah, ok. Thank you.

2018-09-20 02:11:12

post 30. I honestly thought a lot about whether to post this, or whether to drop it. but I feel like I should post it.
while I completely agree with you, that the best way this would be is if all 3 screen readers had their own powerful features, and possibilities. however, when a company more or less tells me when I should upgrade, because, well, you know, if I can't upgrade at the designated time, I'll be paying twice as much, I somehow lose respect to that company. it's all well and good, if you have offers every now and then, and or have a set, stable price. but the way they're approaching it, even on the FS podcast, just really got me. and looking at the change log, just, wow... I'll continue supporting narrator and NVDA if and wherever I can, and hopefully freedom scientific will get back to the market, eventually. plus, even if we wanted JAWS to fail, that won't happen, anyway. too many schools, organisations, and users.

2018-09-20 02:48:01 (edited by Chris 2018-09-20 02:56:24)

Our records show that you are licensed for release 18 of JAWS Single User, and require an upgrade to release 2019 before you can renew your SMA. You are eligible to upgrade to release 2019 and purchase an SMA for $600. If you prefer an upgrade only, the cost would be $400.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Why can't I pay $120 or what ever the single price is to move from JAWS 18 to 2019? This business model is horrible and I will not support this company! Let's not forget that they're now essentially a monopoly when it comes to screen reading and magnification software in the United States. I wouldn't be so critical if they didn't have such a terrible business model. There are some features in JAWS that would be useful, but it's not worth this exorbitant price. What will my upgrade price be next year? $800 or $1000?

I will continue to support the wonderful work NV Access is doing. I wonder what this SMA price translates to in other currencies around the world? It's probably much higher.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2018-09-20 03:18:45

For those wondering about the screen reader side of Dolphin  Computer Access (at least for USA customers,) you can find more here:

https://irie-at.com/computer-access/

BTW, they also have an "annual" option now for keeping up with their products.

PS. Considering Dolphin products aere the only ones to have NLS and NFB  Newsline built-in to the screen reader itself, ... Well,

2018-09-20 03:51:55

hi chris,
In turkish currency,  the price of a one time purchase of jaws is ... wait for it,  9,449.60 TL! That is a price of a very high spec, top of the line gaming laptop, or a monster desktop. They seriously have a fucked up business model, not only because of their seriously overpriced shit, but also because they choose to offer their cheapest lisences in the US, one of  the wealthiest countries in the world, where people can aford to pay the higher prices.

A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."

2018-09-20 05:19:40

@39:
Hmmm, lets see.
Jaws home addition costs $1020, I've just checked that out my self now.
Lets see how much it would cost in other currencies:
3,825.51 Saudi Riyal.
3,746.66 UAE Dirham.
873.06 Euros.
775.82 Pounds.
1,317.70 Canadian Dollar.
6,376.68 Turkish lira
etc.
Keep in mind that you will pay even more for it, doesn't matter if you get it through a dealer or if you get it from fs them selves, well I am not sure if they can sell you the thing or they will direct you to a dealer, either way you will pay more a lot money than what I showed you above.
Lets assume that you gonna buy it from them directly to save your self from the extra money that you will hand to the dealer, you gonna pay more because if your credit card currency is the euro currency as an example, the bank will charge you for the exchange rate plus the charges for the exchange rate from fs as well.
It's just, a lot of money that someone is going to spend when they have a screen reader that is faster, lighter, and doesn't mess with stuff it shouldn't mess with, and best of all, it's free.

2018-09-20 07:19:06

Chris, I'd contact sales, but it sounds like you bought a license without an SMA or let your SMA run out. Without the SMA you get the upgrade at half the cost or something, unless I'm mistaken. The only other explanation I can think of is it's a professional license or something. Those do cost more to maintain. I do admit that their business model is kind of weird. Hopefully the new subscription based model will enable more people to use JAWS.

2018-09-20 07:22:38 (edited by UltraLeetJ 2018-09-20 07:31:34)

Okay. to those who say it has added many new, exciting, interesting things... .. can you please explain exactly what is interesting about this?
Faster JAWS Startup with Grace Period Authorization
its just... faster. its an improvement, not a feature. That they had to describe their weird voodoo sorcery into highly technical language and slightly reveal a top trade corporate secret does not make that an addition, nor a feature.

Separation of Office Scripts
what, again, is interesting about this? this is.. a change that hopefully improves something... like faster navigation on large docs and finally, more accurate, proper braille implementation. No addition here.
Improved Performance in Office 365 Applications
again, nothing interesting. They even repeat the separation of the scripts. Its a redundant thing, even.

Audio Ducking Support for Windows 10 blah blah blah.
a bug fix, not an addition.
TAB Key No Longer Echoed
what is so interesting about this? if this is enabled by default and I am used to hearing tab ALL of the time, I would actually think the upgrade broke something.

Seriously, to make my screen reader go.. "Oh! you have just plugged a braille display, I will start using it right away!" is: 1. convenient, 2. almost magic, 3. Something I could turn on or off if desired, its an addition. I can live without it but then again, it can make life easier in some situations. And that is just an example.
ah yes and NVDA wraps. If you cannot fin it then an add on will certainly do it for you.. but again, I love to know when I have reached the end of the page for certain. But its just me.
NVDA detected and signaled spelling errors since at least last year. That you are excited that jaws will hopefully, and at the mercy of freedom whatever do this someday, well... I hope that becomes true... but again, it shows its ahead of the times in some aspects. I rarely use audio ducking as well, but hey its there and it has really saved me inn some situations... never given me any surprises like.. oh, hey its broken so pay us about 600 dollars (the price of about two months worth of very fine groceries by the way) and we will hopefully get that fixed in the next.. uh, major upgrade.
And regarding handling of licenses: its a gray area.. if you like the performance changes and improvements because of the changes in software protection, that's good, I would appreciate that as well
If you love paying for an upgrade that is more a showstopper than an actual .. "we care about our customers and thus will have a dedicated beta testing team and will resolve issues, even minor ones"then I guess that is also a way to roll.
I believe some of the stuff had already been explained as to why jaws has not improved too much or added worthwhile features... its because only a smaller 10% of the user base wrote to fs about them.. and fs ignored them.. after all, what is 60 thousand bucks to them when they already have the braille initiative .. erhmm, monopoly already running? not a loss, so they of course will ignore everything and just keep on muting the start menu key because oh, that sells to the schools and bbc news.
Case in point, I have written to their oh so professional, mature, incredibly prompt support department 5 times for the past month or so regarding their biggest scam, the packmate... I have an issue and the person using it just lost their job because their technology, pristine, reliable, high quality, interesting technology failed them.
But what, they cared oh so much about it that my calls and e-mails went practically unanswered. I kept on being assigned case numbers and then rejected.. its all a beautifully designed bureaucracy because of me being an international customer.
And int he meantime, I think 10 dollars (you can buy a week worth of groceries here with that you know) in Skype credit went down the drain calling their quote, direct.. unquote numbers.

  so get.. understand this... its not jaws itself that is bad,its what and especially how! they are shaping it that its horrendous.
I used jaws for about 12 years too (since 1998 until about 2010).. when it was good and then.. it lamentably has just bluffed. No other description for it.

A bus station is where a bus stops. A train station is where a train stops. On my desk, I have a work station…

2018-09-20 12:28:54 (edited by flackers 2018-09-20 16:39:46)

Jaws is obscenely over-priced. And FS, or whatever they're called now, does hold their customers to ransom. I've been stung myself. I bought jaws in 2007 and just paid for the new version when I needed it. I thought you just paid one upgrade price of 169GBP or whatever. I stuck with v10 for a few years because it was a good version and just kept working until v13. When I came to upgrade I got a shock. I had to pay for three upgrades plus the SMA, which was over 600GBP. The lady vender was noticeably embarrassed by this obscene amount, and was apologetic. What they have been lacking is healthy competition to drive innovation and keep prices competitive. But NVDA is at least impacting on their profits, even if it doesn't appear to be causing them to revise their pricing. If you can't afford jaws and you live in the UK, you can no longer get help from your local authority to buy jaws, or a grant from RNIB because NVDA is a great free screen reader, so they can't justify the cost. Quite right too.
But most products aimed at the blind are over-priced because of the limited market, it's just jaws is even worse than usual. But if you can either afford or get some help with the initial cost, the ongoing SMA really isn't that expensive. If you view it as a subscription cost, it's about 6GBP a month last time I checked. The script manager with all its built-in functions that make scripting easier for the average user is worth the subscription alone to me. I'm not a Win 10 user, so all the upgrading in that area has gone unnoticed by me. The only thing I can think of in recent years that's made my life better is the ability to OCR documents. For important letters that need to be read carefully and thoroughly, it's much more reliable than trying to read them using my phone. Jaws has also added some useful OCR functions to the script manager, such as being able to OCR a portion of the screen. But really, these days the innovations are few and far between, and you have to just accept you're paying for continuous updates more than anything. This release is particularly pathetic, and the wat's new reads like the scraps you would have got at the bottom of the list five or six years ago. Maybe NVDA is taking its toll on FS's main source of income. Maybe this is why they're not as productive as they were.

2018-09-20 13:50:31

Actually to me this seems like one of their best updates yet. I think that even though I haven't used jaws for 5 or 6 years, I should definitely purchase the product now because of these groundbreaking new changes.

Prier practice and preparation prevents piss poor performance!

2018-09-20 14:53:06

You're just in time, check this out. https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/rel … anges.html

2018-09-20 15:02:51 (edited by Chris 2018-09-20 15:08:01)

VFO customer support is a joke! Every time I've written to them they have been less than helpful. I find it very sad. It seems to me as though they're more concerned with getting as much profit as possible out of businesses and end users rather than creating a quality product. I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. When you buy out all your competitors, you become a monopoly and can do what ever you want because you're the only game in town.

Isn't VFO run by sighted people now? I heard the quality was much better when Ted Henter was in charge.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2018-09-20 16:59:34

They've turned assistive technology into a racket basically. They can barely keep up, and are not in some areas, they over charge like crazy, the thing is not worth that amount of money. Also, to pay for all the upgrades in between what you had and what the newest version is is downright insane. I have a reaper license that's good until 6.0, at which point, I would either have to keep using 5.x or get a new license for 6.0. Now, let's say I am just so enamored with 5.x that I can't see me moving to 6.0 for whatever reason, so I wait a year or two or three for them to reach 7.0. If I want 7.0, I don't need to buy a 6.0 license and a 7.0 license, I just buy the 7.0 license.

Reaper doesn't have an upgrade program that gives you a discount if you already have a license for the previous version. That said, the thing is like $70 which is really cheap for a DAW. Something that's costing that amount of money needs as upgrade path. And no I'm not talking about the SMA (scammed my ass), because what they're doing is punishing the end-user for not keeping up to date with their SMA, but then the SMA doesn't cover everything anyway. It's a complete shit hole of a business model, but it works for them, because they get institutions, and government organizations on board. In doing so, they screw the individual 6 ways from Sunday.

Also Jaws can't claim best in class this, that, and the other, because they're just not. I know that Jaws users who try NVDA or even manage to switch, do have issues with it. Those issues are quite valid too. NVDA can be a bit clunky at times, there are things I know JAWS does handle better. Here's the thing about that. NvAccess is a nonprofit, funded from user donations and corporate sponsors/partnerships. I think they're doing Well, but they don't have the money VFO do, that's certainly true. They also don't have the resources of the larger organizations. I think they've done pretty well for themselves. And we've seen some contributions from the open source community come into being as of late, the one that sticks to mind, and I know its already been mentioned, but the auto braille display detection is not from NvAccess themselves. I think it is from a French organization, but I forget which one or what they do. Still, what do you think the ratio is of people who have problems with NVDA to those who file issues on Github regarding the problems they're having, or about suggestions, etc. It's probably pretty low. Github isn't really that hard to set up, its just like signing up for anything else. Yes the site is a bit weird to figure out, but overall, if you're not going to develop and use git repositories and so forth, filing an issue is not that hard. It is a bit weird at first, but once you've done a few, you'll get the hang of it. And i'm sure if people asked if they couldn't figure it out, they'd get help on the mailing list.

Facts with Tom MacDonald, Adam Calhoun, and Dax
End racism
End division
Become united

2018-09-20 18:01:54 (edited by Nikola 2018-09-20 18:04:03)

Couldn't wait for jaws fanboys to find excuses for this. Isn't this thread supposed to be informative? Yes it is, and I would guess that the first post   does well in informing you that the beta release is out, giving you a link to check it out for yourself. After that, since this is a forum, everybody commented their opinions on the release. Nobody is there to blame if majority of these comments is negative, it's so for a reason and believe me, the reason is not that I use NVDA. I wont stop using it if jaws adds 15 new features, so why would I try to find reasons to bash them if they didn't exist? As to the tab key change, on their website, there is a heading at level 2 which says,  New Features Added in JAWS 2019. Then, underneath that is a heading at level 3 which says, TAB Key No Longer Echoed. Doesn't this logically tell you FS calls it a new feature? I would guess so. In any case, you do not need to wait that long since NVDA was already released and already had another minor update fixing a Firefox crash.
I also sincerely hope post 46 is sarcastic, if not FWO deserves all the money they get.