2018-06-21 23:34:38

So I'm a little confused. Do you mean that you'll have a 1% success rate with Black Ops 3 because of your abilities, or just because of your past experiences. I'm just confused why you don't think you'll be able to play, even though there are tutorials out there.

I don't know about others, but I'm not against accessibility at all. You're talking to the person who toured the EA facility in Orlando with Karren to work on pushing the accessibility agenda. All I"m asserting is that I choose to play games to the best of my abilities, instead of waiting for them to become accessible.

I agree with you on spending time on certain activities, but I think there's a little misunderstanding. What I mean by investing hours into doing something, I mean with things you enjoy or are passionate about. Of course, we can't be perfect at everything, it's impossible, but I still believe that investing time into things you want to be good at will eventually yield results. There's a lot of things I want to be good at, but I chose to invest my time in becoming a Paralympic swimmer and playing video games. As a result, I'm now living and training at the Olympic Training Center and am a skilled gamer. Everything else I do is just a side project.

2018-06-21 23:54:15

Partly my abilities, partly that I don't think there will be enough audio cues that I can make use of.
Well at least you're not one of those people who thinks everyone is a special little snowflake, lol, I hate that. Yeah if you enjoy something and you put the time in, you're likely to succeed. I have worked around games, and the more I think I'm going to like the game directly correlates to how much effort I put into trying to play it, also how much resistance I get, like what is stopping me, or holding me back. I will put more effort in the more I like something, and less to none if I don't.

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2018-06-22 00:01:39

Well, videos of blind people playing should be evidence enough. With that being said, if you putting hours into a game isn't your thing, then that's completely understandable. I personally love a challenge and they motivate me to do better, but everyone has their own way of doing things.

2018-06-22 01:15:21

I kind of want to tackle all the topics that have been thrown around here in one unified post, but I'm going to start that address with the observation that I think the subject has rather detoured away from Ryok's intent, which was to make a list of games, be they "accessible" or "playable".

On the subject of the list of games, I do think it would be more accurate to label the topic as playable rather than accessible, since "accessible" classically means that the game can be fully operated by an individual without any external assistance. In this way, while Street Fighter V and even Mortal Kombat X are playable, they are not strictly accessible. Case in point, I needed to get my girlfriend Ashley to go through the MKX menus with me in order to create the MKX menu guide. I think in this way, such games become playable, fully enjoyable, but not classically accessible.
This doesn't mean they shouldn't be listed, it just means that their inclusion should come with an awareness of their caveats. Skullgirls, for instance, could definitely be listed as accessible, as no external assistance is required to operate any portion of it -- you don't need help making sure your screen resolution is set to the right setting, to make sure motion blur is either on or off, or to check whether or not the brightness is set to a certain level. All these settings, combo data, tutorials, etc are all available through Skullgirls' implementation of Tolk, so I believe that game could be listed as classically accessible.

On the debate about Black Ops 3: I do think this all just stemmed from the tone of post 7. I think it just came across as the slightest bit dismissive of those who might not have endeavoured to try playing game X or Y. Furthermore, later posts by other contributors seem to be hammering in the nail on the coffin that if you won't try game X or Y, then you'll probably be considered subpar and below consideration. Whether or not it was by design, that tone would probably put people on the defensive, since it does seem to state that gamers who haven't tried to play Star Ocean 3 just aren't as good as those who have.
The problem here isn't necessarily that people aren't willing or able, but perhaps more that they're not cognizant of the possibility. I myself see Black Ops and think it isn't worth the time to learn, simply because I always think sighted players will have a significant advantage by virtue of their being able to see the screen. By this assumption, I therefore automatically dismiss it as a viable game.
It's by this same token, for example, that I've yet to try Bloodborn, Dark Souls, God of War, World of Warcraft, and any number of other titles -- I will just automatically assume they're unplayable. Worst yet, in some cases these titles cost money to play them, offering little room to experiment to find out whether or not they are manageable. A blind player cannot be faulted, in my opinion, if they're unwilling to buy Diablo 3 to try and learn it, if they've heard that it's likely inaccessible and very difficulty to play without vision.
I make these arguments to express the fact that I think a bit of understanding might be in order. I think it's great that you guys want to encourage people to play these games, of course, but you can catch many more flies with honey.

Kai

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2018-06-22 01:36:55

I just did two streams with Danny ad myself (the first one ended prematurely, no idea why), the second one is 1.004 GB in size. While I mostly play Halo, I'm definitely going to branch out to others; I recently got into Team Fortress two, and if I can figure out Halo Wars II, which seems like something similar to SoundRTS, I'll definitely be playing that too. Playing games is all about finding your niche. I personally am against accessibility in games (as I've demonstrated before) purely because I know for a fact that we'll go way, way overboard with it, as we've gone way, way overboard with [everything] else. It'll happen like so: a game company implements accessibility into a single game, just the basics, nothing fancy. Then some blind people will demand (because, you know, they [never] ask), for more features, and those'll be added. At that point the game will be accessible. But as with everything else, those blind people will never be satisfied, so they'll ask for more and more and more until the game is quite literally unplayable and boring as fuck because everything will be handed to you on a silver platter. The same thing happened to knowledge, privacy tracking and power: companies wanted more and more data on customers (they just called it "metadata," of course), and now they've pretty much completely destroyed privacy altogether. Now every company out there knows absolutely everything about you because to no anything else would be unfathomable. The only way to get around that is to use VPNs, GPG keys, Tor, and a lot of other stuff that the average Joe is not going to invest their time in.

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2018-06-22 03:17:28

Kai

I understand your point about Black Ops 3, but I mainly play Zombies. So either you're playing solo or with another friend. I do agree that sighted people would have an advantage, which is why I won't try to play a game like Overwatch, for example. You make a good point about having to purchase the games. Technically, you can always return the game, but that would be a bigger hassle than most people would be willing to go through. I personally, would definitely go through that hassle, just because I'm always eager to find more games to play.

2018-06-22 11:18:32 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2018-06-22 12:08:35)

Here's a different definition of accessibility for you to work with; avoiding unnecessary barriers that get between a player and the kind of experience that the developer wants them to have.

Using Black Ops 3 as an example, it's playable for some people and not for others. There's a bar there of how much skill is needed, how much patience and persistence is needed not just to become profiecent and learn maps and so on but things like memorising menu structures too.

So where accessibility fits into that equation is as an optimisation process, chipping away at some of those barriers to lower that bar, that barrier to entry that sits outside what makes the game fun.

Text to speech for menus.

An option to reduce vertical sensitivity to zero.

An audio cue to match up with the visual cue of someone being directly in your crosshairs.

These and other things like these would make the game more enjoyable for more people. There are already a top end of players who are happy to battle through all of that, who find the reward justifies the work, but removing a bit more of the unnecessary pain, pain which by the way sighted players do not have to experience, pain that is not an intended part of the experience - can only be a good thing.

IMO There's nothing wrong at all with wanting games to be fun. Spending hours trying to memorise menu structures really isn't supposed to be part of what games are. If you're happy going through the current struggle then IMO that's totally valid, if you aren't then IMO that's also totally valid.

2018-06-30 08:17:53

hello! several words about subject of topic. games: raging justice,the takeover,shaq fu legend reborn, redeemer. and there are many playable games in steam. and many  games could recognize using nvda and ocr of windows 10.

2018-06-30 18:09:38

Hi,
Wow, what are the takeover and redeemer?

2018-06-30 22:50:53

@ross and @ethin
Won't say too much because Kai did a great job of explaining my feelings, but I definitely wanted to go into depth about a thing or two. First I want to say that I think it's amazing that you enjoy playing mainstream games, and it's certainly inspiring and motivating to see, but I think that it's a little bit unfair to generalize the entire blind gaming community. I agree with a lot of points relating to finding value in mainstream games and not expecting fully accessible games anytime soon, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the gamers who feel comfortable sticking with the games that they're comfortable with. As far as being demanding and feeling entitled goes, I've seen this argument constantly all throughout this forum and beyond, but I personally haven't witnessed enough of it to feel that it's accurate at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Tolk was added to Skullgirls, I don't remember seeing large demands and forceful requests for more features. Whether or not it's your intention, trying to call out players in such a way is very likely to make people defensive as it gives off a very condescending tone. I really just wanted to emphasize that not every blind gamer can be described by the stereotypes you provide. Nice channel by the way.

P.S. RIP original topic discussion

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2018-07-01 00:22:46

valid points from all parties, very good discussion. I'm not going to jump in the debate, seeing how my point has already been stated by others, what I will say is we need more audio games, that mirror games of the main stream. yes we have a few floating around swamp, bk3, stw, and undead just to name a few, but it seems like those type of games come 1 every 6months. what you can definitely see come out like clock work is a text based choose the right choice game, or a mud that is similar to the other 50million out there which includes creating a character, joining a class, and questing to level up while learning different skills along the way. bottom line point blank we just need more devs out there that will be willing to make more games that you will see on a xbox or ps4. a blind legend, is a step in the right direction, but again when was the last time a game like that came out. I can go on and on, but again we just need more main stream like games in the ag community

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2018-07-01 03:25:51

First of all I totally agree with Ross.
I am a gamer since... well, good question. I started playing video games probably something like 20 years ago and what I've learned is you can do everything if you want. Playing a fighting game where you need to learn combos? no matter if you're blind or not, everyone who wants to be good needs to do that. Menus? it's not that hard and especially if We have really amazing people here who are sharing it with others. I am fighting for accessibility in games and I am doing everything to help others with playing video games just because I believe it's possible, it's fun and it's opening you to something more and not only audio games We have. I was a private tester of Skullgirls accessibility, I am trying to push things forward and I think if there will be more and more people who will do the same We can change the world, maybe not drastically but just a bit.

Learning is a key in every aspect of our life. If I will say "Hey, drumming costs money and take my time why I should play?" If I love something I'll do everything to break the limits!

Now regarding the games itself:
Redeemer is a beat em up game but I want to know more how accessible it is especially because it's open world game with stealth kills etc.
Ross, I am open for trying Blackops 3 so I'll appreciate every help and suggestions. Where can I find your channel?

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2018-07-01 03:32:15

Also games I can recommend:
Shank 1 and 2. Completed it without any sighted assistance. Great games for every fan of scrolling hack en slash games with a lot of combos, juggling and stuff.
Narcissu - An visualnoverl. There's accessibility patch in the 'guides' section.
Marvel VS capcom 3 and infinite

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2018-08-14 05:47:21

@post 11 your tutorials don't tell me anything it's you  playing the game and telling us what your doing in the game not how you play it the settings you change or anything that's why this whole thing frustrates me. I'd love to play blackops 3.