2018-04-11 12:07:23

I'm classing them as toys because in my opinion they are, looking at the new releases here personally nothing grabs me, yes you have stuff like AHC, youhave stuff like Warsim but those are, I feel, exceptions, not the rule, I feel personally like audiogames are slapped together in BGT or whatever engine to get it out there and the community as a whole likes it because it's something new to play....but....strip away the fancy audio, strip away the story for a moment.

I'd much rather put a story aside, and focus on gameplay. I personally love the aforementioned Cities: Skylines because it gives you a gameplay and doesn't hold your hand, but on the other end of the spectrum, I love Puzzle Quest 1 and 2, both story driven games but with the gameplay coming not from clicking around the sreen, ut in the match 3 gameplay being used for battles, doors, treasure et al. Is it a one trick pony? Sure, but it does that trik very, VERY well and it's addictin.

Or, Animal Crossing, I've yet to figure out why that's so addicting but it is....

If an audiogame came out that was addicting and simple and easy to play, cross platform and free, I'd be all over it, as long as it presented a challenge. I'm not saying Dark Souls levels of difficulty, no, I own one of the Dark Souls games and died in the first area simply by not knowing I was gonna get attacked...but I do feel like most of the audiogames that are popular are not...to me, and this is my opinion, a challenge.

Here's the thing. I grew up playing games like...yes the Nintendo games, the Genesis/Megadrive games, the SNES and N64 games, but mostly on PC, If I name a classic 80s/90s PC game I've probably played it and that's what I'm comparing audiogames to from my perspective, compared to...say....Future Pinall, ESP Pinball gets close, yes, but I'll take Future Pinball because FP feels better to me, it feels more like a pinball table should do. I'll take FSX over Eurofly any day. I'll take Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 over AHC for instance.

I simply feel like audiogames, or at least the ones that are atop the new releases room with a few exceptions, don't personally draw me in. I can level the same criticism at games as a whole, I sunk hours into Warcraft and Starcraft, I sunk hours into Civ but I got bored of Tactical Batltes within a few minutes.

That brings me onto a semi-related point though. I feel some audiogames try to do too much with what they have. I'd rather in...let's say a turn based Civ type game, not have 20 hotkeys for everyhing and it announcing everything I move the cursor over, I'd rather just have one key to open a menu and pick from those options if I hit enter on a town or a unit or an empty hex.

IMHO audiogames need to step back and ditch the 500 keys in certain genres, I personally don't want every tiny little thing announced in a strategy game, I'd rather have the mystery of finding out myself there's an enemy city neary by sending a nuit there than having the game magically tell me that it's there, its strength, how many units defending and so forth. That ruins such games for me. In Civ for instance you can see the other enemy city but you don't know what's inside the city till you attack, then the defending pile of units appears. Or if they're cunning, the units are nearby and waiting to attack next turn.

No no I was saying gamers don't make smart decisions either way, and they sure as hell don't learn from their mistakes at all though. It's amazing how many gamers on this generation can't quickly learn a map or a mode and rely on minimaps and such to learn instead of paying attention to their surroundings  and then some. Makes for a ton of easy stealth kills in games. I'm the guy in the corner hiding off the radar with traps set. Usually ge t a bunch of interesting reactions from people who die and rage at me for it. If they'd paid attention...

Physics is a tough one though, the thing is physics is subjective and there's a ton of shortcuts in physics in games to make it fun, and on the other end, programming physics is hard and can get people burned  out vey, very quicklyM64

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

Jace's EA PGA Tour guide for blind golfers

2018-04-11 12:17:42

Also for stories, it's not just games, it's TV, movies, etc. there's a great example from wrestling, the WWE grabbed a bunch of TV writers to write heir stories. None of the stories worked very well, and the TV writers were let go a few months later. Conversely a ew WWE writers have made the jump to write for movies and TV. I do feel though writing for games is an anomaly. If you write for a TV show, you go episode by episode, for games you already know the end point, so in a way you can lack that motivation to do a good job. I do feel though as a whole, game stories are too predictable, Duty Calls, a CoD parody captured this wonderfully in that short parody game when confronting the bad guy, IIR the playthroughs are on Youtube, the whole thing was a send up of the then modern military shooter genre, but it touched on storytelling in games.

I do think though again that storytelling in games is trying too hard to be Hollywood-esque, and that's to the detriment of the game itself. I wasn't involved with a story based game at SMS thankfully, but I've heard stories from other studios of whole mechanics and levels and segments being cut because they weren't fitting with the story, so rather than rewrite the story, the segments got axed and hte poor coders had to redo that bit of the game while the writers got off scot free.

I've said this to friends in the industry and former colleagues, why do games have to shoot for movie type stories? With a movie, you know what you're getting. It's passive. You know the bad guy's gonna get defeated, you walk out, you watched the movie, it's a few hours that gave you enjoyment (hopefully), but with games it is interactive, and I do feel that game devs and especially publishers are pushing for movie like storytelling and forgetting the most important point of a ame...it isn't passive entertainment. it's interactive, you're doing stuff. Much as FMV games were hated 25-30 years ago (Looking at you Dragon's lair), I feel the whole gaming  industry is regressing to that level at a steady rate. Okay you have stuff like Undertale, Into the Breach and FTL but all of those are the exception, not the rule.

Let's take the biggest selling games:

GtA V: Hollywood-esque story about 3 criminals that succeed no matter what the odds and all live happily ever after. Story over, all loose ends wrapped up niely
Minecraft: For the longest time it didn't even have a story...but now it does, you go fight the ender  dragon, get a poem, game over
Even  sports games are getting in on it, and I feel gaming as a whole needs to step back and cut back on the cutscenes, the Hollywood voice actors, the pushing for movie level storytelling, the linearity of games as a whole, I'd much rather see a return to the 80s/90s era of simple stories, fun and addicting and difficult gameplay...

That being said, I can look past a bad story if the gameplay is interesting enough to captivate me.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

Jace's EA PGA Tour guide for blind golfers

2018-04-11 12:57:37

Now here Jase is I think where we disagree, since just looking at some of the games in new releases we have crazy party, warsim and huboodle, all very different games but all imho well put together and doing what they should do and doing it very well (I can't speak for ahc since I've not sat down with it long term).

Still, what I was trying to do in this topic is not necessarily criticise audiogames or audiogamers in general or try to find defining trends, just ask the question that Swanky goose rased originally, ie, what makes audiogames engaging, which in turn leads to the question of what makes games in general, of any sort engaging.

i will freely admit of course I tend to look on the bright side as far as new releases go, indeed had I not at least a moderately positive attitude towards games and game development I probably wouldn't have been as heavily involved in games as I have been for the last decade and a half big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-04-11 15:01:03

That's the thing Dark, I've been through the AAA ringer at a big studio and played a lot of videogames though so yes I'm both negative from being burned out by thee industry as a whole, and burned out by the usual crop of games both video and audio though.

I asked a friend of mine who is a published author why she never wanted to write for games, and her response was, paraphrased:

Because writing for games is so limiting compared to books.

I get that, I get it being a writer myself, and having been at a big company....I'm cynical about games and audiogames, I'm cynical because of having to test the same version of a game over and over and over again....week in, week out and get into verbal fights and arguments over game X in the studio.

Now...what, IMO makes a game engaging?

I said game, so....videogame, audiogame, it don't matter...

Personally, I think simplicity really, simple mechanics that are easy to pick up and play but hard to master. Back in the 90s, Papyrus released a bunch of racing sims that got sold in big box stores, your supermarkets, your big chain stores. They were easy to play but hard to master, you could spend hours in it practicing and tweaking your car to get a faster lap time, or trying to win the championship. Some 20 years or so, nearly 25 on, are those games simple? Yes. But they are simple, simple physics, with flaws, but engaging because you have things to do, you're trying to qualify on pole, or learn a new track, or racing a full season to win the title.

Same for RPGs, you go through the main quest, but I'd argue an RPG can be less engaging because of the writing.

So, simple pick up and play mechanics? Check.

Low system requirements:

What I mean by this is I can run it on a low end system, or for audiogames, I can run with Orca or SAPI without any additional software. I can run it on a Pentium III or equivalent for example, I don't need a mega super high end rig with a Titan GTX to run a game.

Next: Addicting gameplay

Do I neeed to explain this one? Again, Puzzle Quest 1 and 2, the match 3 gameplay is addicting because of its simple nature so you get hooked easier.

So what audiogames do I feel tick those boxes?

Warsim has the easy but deep gameplay, I wish it were on Linux but......it has addicting gameplay and  low requirements BUT it's not perfect. AHC has easy gameplay but it is, at least to me, just another RPG. That's not to say it's a bad game, mechanics wise, it's just an accessible RPG, which personally I don't exactly care for frankly.

What else makes a game engaging?

Let's see......

A rich world...but.....this isn't a must, it's nice BUT the gameplay can carry a game if the world isn't super detailed, I feel like some games do go overboard with describing every tiny little thing and it gets too cluttered.

Which leads to my next point:

Only essential sounds:

What I mean by this is you do not need a sound for every tiny little thing happening, at all, it gets overwhelming and turns me off games, personally. The same goes for sounds/ambience, if those are too jarring...nope, uninstall

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

Jace's EA PGA Tour guide for blind golfers

2018-04-12 05:18:05

~While I agree with you on simplicity of gameplay based on player's judgement, I'm afraid I disagree on other items, since immertion in the games world has always been an important factor for me, and even when a game is lacking in writing or other factors, if it has an immersive world that's more than enough.
Then again, at the age of five I used to make up stories to myself while playing berserk on our old atari 2600 so goodness knows big_smile.

Still, in the Mega man games even if the story isn't stellar, it is the character and personality of each boss and their respective level that is so unique and makes me replay the games as much as the gameplay.

this is where I'd argue the game audio of audiogames comes in, even if its just as much as a good background music track.

Back in the nineties a game series like Turrican could give you the feeling of exploring vast alien environments just by changing the colour pallet of the levels and having some awesome music.

Actually to get back to this topic's original theme, what Swanky goose did with caves under thorn hill is a great example. he/she added one paragraph of description for the caves and a few sound effets, transforming a very dry logic puzzle into a little mini adventure.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2018-04-12 07:28:28

I'd say though gameplay is more important than immersion though, if you have a really immersive game but poor gameplay you'll notice that quicker, I feel, whereas great gameplay can carry a title on its own regardlesss of how good or bad immersion is. Again, the Puzzle Quest game series, it has generic story, but the gameplay carries it because it adds new twists every so often.

I'd also say immersion is subjective, I had this discussion earlier actually about yes, you need detail BUT you don't want to go overboard with detail and describe, say, every single blade of grass in a field, or for audiogames have every tiny thing make noise. I feel it's a balancing act for immersion, you have to get it right. Something like....say.....a game where you're walking through a field in Minecraft strikes a nice balance, you got the footsteps, the animals moving around and the subtle background music, it all fits together to immerse you, you know what you're doing walking on grass and dirtt. I'd rather however for games as a whole, not just audiogames hit that balance, they don't need to be 3 hour Hollywood movies with quick time events, I recently watched a playthrough of A Way Out and that encapsulated my point perfectly, it's a big budget game that screams OH LOOK GAME AS MOVIE and you never, ever feel immersed in it because it's constantly showing off with set pieces, and the 'gameplay' is just go here, press button....do thing.


The immersion aspect though is subjective, like I said I prefer subtle immersion honestly, I'd rather have X number of sounds and then them used subtle than have 5000 sounds all rammed  into a game to give info. I'd personally rather have only sounds that need to be there....like for the field example, only the wind blowing, the footsteps and animals wandering around, that's all that's needed, I don't need a fence bleeping at me from halfway across the field, I don't need a cow giving me an audio cue constantly. Less is sometimes more is what I'm saying, or lesss sounds can mean more immersion.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

Jace's EA PGA Tour guide for blind golfers

2018-04-12 08:54:26

ahh, another one of these topics.
I'm probably going to end up rambling and saying things that already has been said but here goes.

First ... the topic is extremely complicated. There are so many questions you could ask yourself to narrow it down:
what genre? What platform? What audience?
Story is extremely important ... in a gamebook type. tongue

I feel as if, reiterating what people already said, we're just trying to polish up a dead engine block - by which I mean that we're making it sound super nice, we may even focus on the story (although give me one "audio game" with a good story. We add all the bells and whistles in the world. Sound packs, mods, etc (although that isn't necessarily a bad thing but that's not something that should take priority)

Let's face it - people love to feel awesome and accomplished and entertained, not necessarily talking about commedy entertainment but emotional investment into something.

So the developer needs to make sure the gamer is rewarded, but the reward also needs to be justified - no one is going to give a shit that they managed to answer a simple question like ... uh ... right ... and now I can't think of one that doesn't seem forced or weird. Well you get the idea. Overcoming obsticals is what makes us feel truly amazing - but in order to motivate the player to challenge these obsticals there needs to be goals set for the player, that hints of a great reward for tackling a great challenge. I also just randomly think that the things that inflict emotions - horror for horror games, panic for  war games or something. That way the feelings of achievement and the desired effect of the game doesn't conflict with each other.
the bk series is a good example of challenges and ... well not so much rewards except shops and unlockable weapons big_smile
I am still going to make the claim that  bk3 is the best audio game of today. And it's sounds aren't even that amazing.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, a good game is one where you don't need to read a manual, but can just launch it and figure it out.

A good game is where you are given options on how to solve a problem - options that the user itself can figure out.

Here are my favourite audiogames and a quick explaination as to why:

the bk series, particularly bk3. A semi platformer with amazing puzzles, great rewards and fun and interesting enemies. Heck, the story is pretty fleshed out too.
technoshock. What can I say? A game that had me banging my head into a wall but then it clicked and you got it.
three-d vilosity. Pretty decent story, and a god damn challenge too where you really actually have to take in information and react appropriately in a spacial environment.
Perilous hearts. We need more platformers, it was a decent beginning. Nice interactive environment for being a demo.

Alright this is it for now, figure I shouldn't write this when I haven't slept all night lol.

Follow me on twitch
And
Subscribe to my youtube
Leave a thumbs up if you like what I write.