2018-04-05 17:49:07 (edited by joshknnd1982 2018-04-05 17:52:42)

I know braille can be embossed using a slate and stylus. and that you can stil buy dot matrix impact printers off amazon. also nails (the kind you hammer into wood) are sharp and durable and last long. I also got a message from Deane Blazie on facebook stating that braille embosser parts cost around $600. and engineering a new embosser would cost perhaps $200,000. But he also stated that if you could adapt a commercial printer it would save some costs. So what is your opinions on this? Could a modern epson dot matrix printer be modified to emboss braille? And since nails are a common item, could a dot matrix  printer be adapted and nails, perhaps with their tips rounded off but still sharp, modified to produce dots on light paper all the way up to permabraille plastic sheets? Just trying to think of ways to bring down the cost of braille embossers, and maybe sell one targeted at consumers for $500 or less. Maybe would print at 15 characters per second. Also to keep costs down, maybe have the dot matrix printer motor double or tripple strike before moving onto the next dot to ensure good dot quality especially on heavier paper. Do you think these ideas would or could work? Just adapt a commercial printer to emboss braille using more common off the shelf parts?

2018-04-05 18:55:12

I've never used a slate and stylus, I don't get the concept here. I get its a sort of manual way to braille, but slate is a type of stone, and if you were going to produce braille onto it, you would need something very sharp, and powerful to penetrate it. Also, if you wanted the dots to feel like dots, rather than impressions, you would have to do it from the opposite side, which means you would have to braille everything backwards so it appeared on the front side correctly. Still, I don't see how you can penetrate slate without a drill bit or something. They used to use it as roofing materials. Some artists use it to draw on. I've seen flat slabs of the stuff, they're heavy and durable. I just don't see someone being able to penetrate it.

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2018-04-05 19:01:12

a slate is a simple device with two plates. one on top, one plate on bottom. they are long plates long rectangular plates as wide as a piece of paper maybe a bit wider. maybe 4 inches from top to bottom lengthwise. the bottom plate has small indents in it with exact spacing of braille dots. the top plate has usually four lines of rectangular openings called windows. along the sides are little divets cut into the windows and you take a sharp stylus and punch the dots or press them down into the paper. when done, you turn the paper over to read the braille.

2018-04-05 20:00:21

Yeah, slate just refers to the backing surface that supports the paper. You're not penetrating the slate itself. There are also drawing slates that are sort of like a rubbery clipboard, but I found those less pleasant than the cover of a cloth-coated binder, for drawing anyway.
And also yeah, it's kinda tedious to write braille by hand, and you do go right-to-left instead of left-to-right.
Whatever became of that embosser made from Legos? Was that actually the least bit innovative, or was it the equivalent of a science fair model that the media thought could make some ad money?
I remember something about the Canute doubling as an embosser, but I'm not sure of the practicality. Also, is the Canute more than a proof-of-concept?
Then there's capsule paper. You could just print Braille onto it via a printer with carbon-based ink, then run it through a capsule paper machine to get braille that way. While those machines seem to cost a "mere" $10k or so, compared to the Brand New Car / Kinda Old House price of an embosser, that sounds like a much better deal. It even does illustrations, after all. But the paper is over a dollar per sheet, and I seem to remember the machine frequently malfunctioning back in the day, and is there good software for printing properly formatted Braille? Yeah, there are Braille fonts and such, but I'm talking something like "format with Duxbury, send to printer instead of embosser".
Also, in such an expensive field, you'd expect people to try to cut costs when possible, and yet the only instance I can think of in which someone actually took the capsule paper route is a major engineering college. Now, considering how the assistive tech market interacts with businesses, education, and government, I wouldn't be surprised if this is not because of some fundamental flaw with the idea, and instead is due to institutional inertia. But it's better to first assume the professionals know what they're doing and aren't just leaving money on the ground, until stronger evidence appears.
cost analysis estimations: $10k for the machine, vs $45k for a cheap/reused/something embosser. 200 sheets of Braille paper is, what, $15? Vs $230 for 200 sheets of capsule paper. So $50k could buy around $40k pages of capsule braille, vs over 600k pages of embossed braille. ... really? Am I doing that math right? ^Those page counts feel off. Oh, and let's not forget the expected lifetime of the device, cost of maintenance, electricity usage, printer heads for the capsule pages, etc.
So if my numbers are right, and you actually can find a decent embosser for $45k, which is the better deal depends entirely on how much you plan to do with it vs how much money it brings in. If you're a publisher sending out menus all over the world, or embossing another thousand copies of the Bible, or warehouses full of textbooks, you probably want to go with the embosser. If you're an individual, small company, or expect to need lots of illustrations on short notice, you might be better off with the capsule paper machine.
Bla, that means that Braille comicbooks would go for, like, $2/page, and most print comicbooks ... vary in length, but let's say 30 pages for the monthly issues? Times 3 for Braille, and that's being generous given that we're trying to translate a highly visual medium to the lowest detail tactile medium, and that's $200 per issue. Well, crap. Guess it's time to ask Audible and Dollar Shave Club if they want to put ads in Braille comicbooks. tongue

看過來!
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2018-04-05 20:02:02

I used to have these things, they are good, but you can not be super fast with them.

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2018-04-05 20:06:28

at cae-jones... what about my original idea? modify a modern dot matrix printer to emboss using slightly blunted nails? you can get a dot matrix printer off amazon for around $200. modify it, write software for a raspberry Pie linux computer board with liblouis as the translator and software to make tactile graphics when needed. and if needed, use ESpeak for the printer's tts. Set the stepper motor to its strongest setting and if necessary have it strike the same dot multiple 2 or 3 times to ensure a good dot before it moves onto embossing the next dot.

2018-04-07 20:07:06

I'm not sure. You'd need the printer to be able to feed thicker paper, and I'd expect the resolution would need to be decreased, since poking holes as small as a Dot Matrix pixel doesn't seem like it would scale up to a Braille dot by just using several in a cluster.
Supposedly some tactile graphics are made via normal printers that just layer eink thickly enough to be felt. I think the Dot Matrix mod sounds more convincing.
I wonder if there's a type of paper which can simplify it? The problem with refreshable braille is finding ways to lock that many dots in each state, while cramming them into a tiny space. But if the paper doesn't need to be able to change states more than once, could it be designed in such a way as to cheapen the process?

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-04-07 21:30:59 (edited by magurp244 2018-04-07 21:48:49)

@CAE_Jones
I believe your referring to the [Braigo] printer, which was a school project using lego mindstorm pieces by Shubham Banerjee, then 13'ish around 2014. He had been funded by Intel and has been working on the next commercial version of the printer as some kind of cloud connected media center, retailing for around 350$. Their site does have an app though that claims to allow you to upload documents you can share and have converted into braille. Like the [Blitab] tablet though there's no word on a product release, little if any progress updates.

The [Canute] looks like their finally moving into production though, says they began finalizing pre-production testing in March 2018. They don't give a final price but say it should be something like a new iphone, around 2-3£ per character with 360 characters, so 720£-1080£? You can [Contact] them to register your interest.

I think though if your looking for a good embosser you should look into 3D printers, since they'll also have a lot more utility. The cheaper ones which require some assembling can go for around 150-200$ and use cheap plastic filament, can do braille and illustrations, or pretty much whatever kind of object you'd like. The only downside is that you have to use a program called a Slicer to carve up 3D models into printer instructions, and they aren't terribly accessible. Its one of the things thats on my to do list to look into, heh. Well, at least there's the [3Doodler 3D Start] pen, they seem to making some initiatives to help get them into the hands of educators and classrooms.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
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2018-04-07 21:35:17

Actually, one thing you guys might've overlooked is the mountbatten brailler from Humanware. It is a portable electronic braille embosser that can work like a regular perkins where it brailles as you type, or in the case of the newer model, emboss files from the Memic app for iOS, or from a flash drive. The nice thing about this is it's only about 2000 bucks, can use any kind of paper you have, and, it is portable. It also can serve as a temperary note taker. So, you could write something in it, put a piece of paper in and emboss.

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2018-04-07 22:03:19

I was under the impression that 3D printers were still comparable to embossers in price. If they're only about 10× the price of 2D printers, that changes quite a lot and leaves a massive pile of money off in the corner over there, behind the ottoman.
I hadn't heard of the Mountain Brailler. I will have to check it out.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-04-07 22:11:24

I just looked. humanware only sels the mountbatten braille whisperer for around $2800. the cheapest embossers currently, on the market, are the viewPlus emBraille, for around $1995, and the viewPlus columbia embosser on sale for $1695.

2018-04-07 23:01:04

The price point for 3D printers depends on a few things, such as number of features, materials such as PLA plastic, metal, resin, etc. speed, and print area. There are cheaper printers that go for around 100$ but the print area on them is fairly small, around 120x120mm, and some of the others that are a bit more around 125$ -150$ like the Anet A8 and similar models require some assembly and fiddling but have a good print area of around 220x220mm and get the job done. Again though the problem is the accessibility of the slicer software, printer controls, 3D modelling, etc. but theres more accessibility prints popping up all the time, educational tools, maps, dice, etc. Honestly at this rate the Braigo will be obsolete before it even hits the market.

You can see a price list for some 3D printers [here] for comparisons.

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2018-04-07 23:45:05

It shouldn't be too hard to come up with something that can write CAD scripts based on Braille input, but I wouldn't know where to begin making it compatible with the likes of Duxbury. In theory, we could just start with a monochrome image and assign an arbitrary depth to one color, right?

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2018-04-09 03:23:37

Sure, assign it as a default shape such as a small cube or cylinder and programatically generate the necessary code for it. The more common scripting language for 3D printers is [G-Code], it might take a bit to figure out the code and handle edge cases like function compability across different printers and such, but it shouldn't be too difficult to put something together, hopefully.

Interestingly there's already an openscad script [here] for converting text into braille STL models for printing, although it would still need to be converted via a slicer. I've already been mulling over putting together a program for streamlining the batch conversion of text/images into braille stl models for printing, with an accessible slicer or something like it down the line.

Also for the curious, here's an example of what generated g-code script looks like for a small 2mm cube:

M140 S60.000000
M109 T0 S250.000000
T0
M190 S60.000000
;Sliced at: Sun 08-04-2018 01:56:54
;Basic settings: Layer height: 0.2 Walls: 1 Fill: 30
;Print time: #P_TIME#
;Filament used: #F_AMNT#m #F_WGHT#g
;Filament cost: #F_COST#
;M190 S60 ;Uncomment to add your own bed temperature line
;M109 S250 ;Uncomment to add your own temperature line
G21        ;metric values
G90        ;absolute positioning
M82        ;set extruder to absolute mode
M107       ;start with the fan off
G28 X0 Y0  ;move X/Y to min endstops
G28 Z0     ;move Z to min endstops
G1 Z15.0 F9000 ;move the platform down 15mm
G92 E0                  ;zero the extruded length
G1 F200 E3              ;extrude 3mm of feed stock
G92 E0                  ;zero the extruded length again
G1 F9000
;Put printing message on LCD screen
M117 Printing...

;Layer count: 10
;LAYER:0
M107
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;TYPE:SKIRT
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;TYPE:WALL-INNER
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;TYPE:WALL-OUTER
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;LAYER:1
M106 S255
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;TYPE:WALL-INNER
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;TYPE:WALL-OUTER
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;TYPE:WALL-OUTER
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;TYPE:WALL-INNER
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M107
G1 F2400 E8.97035
G0 F9000 X109.25 Y109.25 Z7.00
;End GCode
M104 S0                     ;extruder heater off
M140 S0                     ;heated bed heater off (if you have it)
G91                                    ;relative positioning
G1 E-1 F300                            ;retract the filament a bit before lifting the nozzle, to release some of the pressure
G1 Z+0.5 E-5 X-20 Y-20 F9000 ;move Z up a bit and retract filament even more
G28 X0 Y0                              ;move X/Y to min endstops, so the head is out of the way
M84                         ;steppers off
G90                         ;absolute positioning
-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer