2018-02-08 19:32:51

We have worked very hard to make Thaumistry accessible to visually impaired players, and produced a pure text-mode version of it in order to make it completely accessible. But even with pure text-mode output, JAWS will randomly skip lines of text. This seems to be a JAWS bug we have no control over. The game is perfectly fine if the player uses the JAWS cursor to navigate and read the text line by line, instead of relying on JAWS to automatically read it out as new lines appear.

We do not want to deliver a bad experience to our players. Do you think we should tell players “the game is not compatible with JAWS?” Or do you think it’s OK to say, “the game is compatible with JAWS when using the JAWS cursor?”

--Bob Bates

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2018-02-08 20:01:47

It would probably be best to say that Jaws support is limited or experimental, it would be best to use another screen reader. You might still get some flack off people, but if you've done what you can, then you've done what you can.

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2018-02-08 20:39:50

I'd just ignore ironcross32, he just likes to troll JAWS whenever he can and doesn't care to contribute anything useful or constructive unless you are talking about his chosen screen reader. Very close minded in my opinion.

I think it would be best to note that the game works with JAWS if you use the JAWS cursor, that way you give those customers who use JAWS and don't want to have to learn another screen reader a way to play the game using JAWS.

It would also be helpful to note that the game works well with NVDA for those customers willing to use an alternate screen reader to play the game.

And finally, if you think the line skipping is a bug in JAWS, I'd suggest notifying Freedom Scientific. If it's something they can reproduce, perhaps they will be willing to fix it.

I say perhaps because Freedom Scientific seems to mostly focus on making productivity software accessible through JAWS and tends to ignore games. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

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2018-02-08 20:57:21

Um.
Hi bob, I am unsure about jaws but the current qt version with nvda has a lot of issues with access so jaws will have the same thing.
Now Not sure if I am allowed to discuss the text mode version here or not that I am currently testing but I was able to complete text mode with a little fiddling in about an hour without the issues I had before with nvda.
Being that it is a console app, it technically will work with jaws, but jaws and its group behind it is a strange animal these days and I don't know it at least not since 6.2.
q

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2018-02-08 20:59:42

Well ironcross, I am testing or rather have completed testing on a text console version which should get away from the origional qt version, I had loads of issues with this to with nvda.
I can't tell you when it will be out, but sooner rather than later, as while I found a few bugs, they didn't really stop me completing the game.

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2018-02-08 21:22:09

I had no issues playing the text mode version with NVDA, but JAWS is another beast entirely.
@Orco, that had nothing to do with the current topic, and Ironcross was not being close minded in any way. He and I both prefer NVDA, but that doesn't make either of us close-minded.
@Bobbates, I want to congratulate you for creating such a fantastically awesome game. Not since Infocom has a text adventure made me think as much as Thaumestry did (not just about the gameplay, but the story and ideas in the game.)

“Can we be casual in the work of God — casual when the house is on fire, and people are in danger of being burned?” — Duncan Campbell
“There are four things that we ought to do with the Word of God – admit it as the Word of God, commit it to our hearts and minds, submit to it, and transmit it to the world.” — William Wilberforce

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2018-02-08 22:51:28

@Orko, Ironcross32 does have a significant point, despite what you may believe. JAWS is hard to use in command-line environments. And don't tell me that I'm wrong because I've used it in command prompt more than once. JAWS doesn't work well with it; it either skips important things, reads things more than once, or otherwise is generally annoying in the command line, whereas NVDA works very well with the command line, makes it very easy to navigate... it feels like Linux... almost. Still got that windows touch, though. It's not based on screen-reader preference or close-mindedness; it's based off of practical usage, and JAWS fails in that department. On the CLI, as you well know, text is very, very important. JAWS loves skipping around and the JAWS cursor is just weird.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-02-08 23:10:21

@5 that's very possible, and I don't doubt you there. In fact, I wasn't trying to imply that using NVDA would fix things. I don't know anything about this game, having never played it, and only heard of it in passing in a recent topic here.

NVDA has some issues when it comes to the terminal, especially when a cursor is involved. For instance, try SSHing into a server from either puTTY or the WSL bash environment in windows 10, then open up a file in nano, and try to edit that file, its pretty bad. There's an addon that is supposed to help with this, but I think its pretty experimental as you have to increase and decrease a value to alter the timing.

@Orco You just keep giving me more ammo to use against you, not smart in my opinion, but hey, if that's what you want to do, feel free to. I don't see how its trolling to give a developer advice they themselves sought out. Further, I don't believe that post contained anything derogatory about Jaws or the company who produces it. I don't like it, that's true, and I make no bones about it, I have a multitude of reasons, which would be off topic, even more so than this already is, so I won't go into them here. However, it was already stated that people were having issues using it to play the game, the issue of it skipping lines was brought up.

I also thihnk it would be beneficial for you to see what a troll actually is / does, why not check out some place like 4chan, while you're doing that, maybe the rest of us will get some peace.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

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2018-02-09 00:31:17 (edited by Orko 2018-02-09 00:35:06)

No it doesn't, but when every message he posts regarding JAWS is nothing but negative comments about the screen reader without offering a single shred of useful or constructive discussion, that is very close minded to me.

So he doesn't like JAWS, I get it, and have no problem with that, it is, after all, his choice. He could just do us all a favor and keep silent about it unless he have something useful and constructive to contribute.

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2018-02-09 02:45:09

Figment, I don't see anything in ironcross32's post that implies that he's hating on Jaws. You seem to think that everyone's out hating on Jaws, when they're doing nothing more than stating facts.

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2018-02-09 03:01:12

I've suffered that editing bug via SSH. I use OpensSH on windows through Scoop, which is a package manager-like app for Windows written in power shell. I've hardly had a problem with editing files in Nano, though I certainly would prefer a native console.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-02-09 04:17:07

It's not a problem on local systems, say, using speakup or the like, but through SSH with NVDA, its a bit of an issue.

I have to be very careful because position information is misleading, often the review cursor has accurate info though, so I'll double check my position with it before making changes. Still, if its multiple files, or many changes, I'll use SFTP to pull the file down, make the edits in windows, and push it back up.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

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2018-02-09 04:21:12

I have no problems with ssh and NVDA regarding the cursor now. I believe either the 2017.3 or 2017.4 release fixed it.

Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.

2018-02-09 04:30:20

Hmm, I'm on 2017.4 and its still an issue for me.

The bipeds think this place belongs to them, how cute.

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2018-02-09 05:23:28

I don't have an issue with it at all. I do prefer editing via SFTP though.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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2018-02-09 19:09:05

Really? A total offtop
And the only closeminded person in this discussion is you, Orko. Ironcross did answer bob's question.

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2018-02-09 19:47:47

My thanks to all for these suggestions.

@blindncool, I'm delighted you enjoyed the game, and very happy that you liked the thinking behind it. The game is a light-hearted and fun romp, but people who look a bit deeper will find just a little more meat, and it seems as if you did that!  Yay!

Cheers,

--Bob

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