I can justify murder. I have a niece, she's 2 now, but say in a few years I find out she's been molested by someone, or had something else happen to her by another person that harmed, traumatized her, etc. I would wipe that person from the face of the earth and be mostly OK with it. I would say mostly OK because taking a human life is not a light matter, and it would weigh on me, but I would do it. Justifying stealing also for survival as previous posters have said. Though I do believe in the balance of things, call it karma if you need to put a label on it, and if you eve got in a point of your life where you weren't struggling every day, you should pay those people back. Same with text books, if you used the pirated materials to their fullest, they helped you get a degree, and because of that degree, you now have a job, if you believe at all in morality and doing the right thing, you should buy a copy of those books. Maybe take it a step further, buy them and donate them to your university or some other people in need.

Also for the stealing for survival argument, I forgot where exactly it was but there's a fascinating series of things about the Bosnian and Croatian wars for independence and how people do what it takes to survive. This is actually something the game This War of Mine uses to good effect, moral dilemmas, do you steal the food from a store and stay alive or leave it and go hungry and possibly get sick, then if you do steal it and you get caught do you fight your way out or give up the food to escape.
Also, Iron, no...that's not a blanket justification really. If it was self defense, fine, if it was mitigating circumstances, maybe but just killing him in cold blood....that's something you'd get hauled up on charges for...even if you got acquitted for it. It's absolutely understandable why you'd do it, but....the law wouldn't exactly look kindly on you really.

I should have been clearer, I meant justify it to myself, I know there is no getting around the law, and should such a hypothetical situation become reality, I'd be put away, maybe I'd get a deal for mitigating circumstances, maybe not.
I hope I am never faced with a situation that puts me in a position where I would either be forced to take a human life to defend myself or my family, or be placed in a moral dilemma such as that one. It was just a hypothetical tool to illustrate the point that even morality has its gray areas. I think the true evil in this world, the pedophiles, the serial killers, rapists, and so forth, those people are not immoral, they are amoral, the difference being the complete and utter lack of any moral code binding on them.

Anyway, that got dark, and I tend to have a knack for that, so I'll just end that here and hope things can get a bit cheerier.

Ceeto, I'm agreeing here. A screenreader is not a need, it's a want. Access to a computer is not a birthrightt you get automatically. I'd even go so far as to argue that Jaws is overpriced even in developed nations, and when you factor in currency rates you may well be looking at 3 or 4 times the USD price. In that instance, I can fully understand why people crack that bit of software.

Here's the issue though.....It's still expensive, it's still not something somebody can easily afford. Okay, yes, if you're living at home with your parents and eating their food, using their power and so forth like a lot of blind people are, but if you have a house, bills to pay, mortgages, taxes in some parts of the world, that eats into your money in a big way and suddenly that $1000+ USD is out of reach because of let's say having to wait on your partner to get paid at work, or having to pay for medical insurance in areas without free healthcare, or raising kids, or even having to buy accessible tech, there's a billion and one things that eat into that money. Not to mention your partner has their own life to live, you don't get all of their paycheck every week or two weeks or month or however long it is between checks. Point iss.....well....once you step into the real world and out of your parents house, and out of the oh you get this, this, this, this, this and this blind services mentality and parents providing for you mentality....you don't have the money to get what you want.

Also, for the overpriced argument.....yes, but...that can apply to gaming as a whole. Go back 30+ yers for gaming as a whole, you had simple graphics, you had text adventures, the Atari 2600. Audiogaming isn't even at that stage yet., it's still in the mid/late 70s for design, yes, you had Space Invaders, but you had a ton of awful games around that time, and nobody remembers the failures.

Also to touch on the want/need argument AGAIN. Where do you draw the line between want and need? Jaws can absolutely, to use that as an example, fall under a want, not a need because there's competition out there, but I think think peer presssure plays a role, the oh Jaws fans are hostile to me if I don't use Jaws so I have to get it to get them to stop bashing on me, argument is certainly valid and has been shown time and again with petty fights over which screnreader is better.

Also yeah that point about warnings backs up what I was saying earlier and the rules don't specifically target audiogames. It's ANY warez/cracks. Which means, yo, asking for a cracked or free version of that is against the rules, but no....it gets a free pass because it's not an audiogame. Once again, mods, either enforce that rule across the board as written to apply to all cracks, serials, warez (now that's a term that's fallen out of use). Problem is you can't turn a blind eye to cracking of mainstream software and stuff like Eloquence as that's still opening the forum up to hot water.

I'm afraid that is what he's saying. @Sito, you're not in a position to, might I remind you that you are in no position to tell Liam, or any dev for that matter, what should and shouldn't be paid for. What matters is that in this case, Liam is getting compensated for the hours and months spent coding the game and making it for us. This isn't your average word game as you suggest. It's a collection of games, often with an arcade-ish approach, as well as gaining achievements. The game has the highest number of achievements in audio-gaming history, 166 I believe? So Sito, if you get your hands on the game, through buying it I hope, be prepared to eat your words.
Regarding Jaws being a want or need. For some instances, it could actually be a need. Some businesses and corporations are bent on using oddball proprietary business software, I'm not just talking Cytrix here. Make no mistake about it there is actually a lot of in-house Jaws scripting for this software, stuff that doesn't go out in the open. There sure as hell could be nvda addons for them, but until there's either a sudden mass increase in nvda usage across the board, or until someone finally sue Vfo's ass for acquiring and killing off all these other products as what was done to Microsoft for their anticompetition efforts, the corporate mindset is stuck on Jaws. And if there's no level of convincing that you can do to convince your business to allow you to use NVDA, you're stuck buying Jaws if the business doesn't do it for you. And it's not like one can just look for employment elsewhere either. So keep that in mind before you go all black and white and say that a screenreader is a 100% want.

162: I haven't rendered an opinion, but , am only asking for clarification from the original poster if to that is how they feel. If the original poster doesn't want to purchase it is their business, but to make a blanket statement like that only reenforces stereotypes this community needs to really dispell.

@liam i wasn't talking about brainstation in partikular. i was mainly trying to bring up a general example so that people see what i'm talking about. so no, i'm not talking about brainstation in partikular. in fact i've tried the alpha and listened to your stream when you demonstrated it and it has potential. with many good games and such.
if i can afford it by the time you release the game i might very wel buy it.
so no, i wasn't talking about brainstation. there are many games out there that tries something like brainstation and fails it horribly because the dev is not working on it hard enough and throws it out after 2 months.
let's take something else as an example that isn't payed but still ilistrates whati mean.
let's take the blackjack game as an example. there are a tunn of those out and there are many on the db.
why make so many blackjack games that others have done and doesn't really take much time to develop rather than spending some time on making a game that has much content to offer and has a wel thought out consept?

@drack these days, a screen reader isn't a need, it's a want consider how much free screen readers that are out there, NVDA and narator for example.
+jaws doesn't cost 1000 bux. i think it's 200 or 300 dollars for a sma licence then 120 dollars to upgrade. btw if you live in US you can pay monhly fees for your licence for 12 months

And it's their calling if they want to release it publicly, and if they do, then great. Part of the fun for new devs is the satisfaction that they made something of their own. Blackjack is, at its core, actually a pretty involved project as far as coding is concerned. For a new dev at least. @Sito I will reinforce that some businesses are hell-bent on using Jaws. Do I advocate that? Well, not really considering the proprietary nature, but am I going to immediately up and leave if, let's say everything else was fin - the pay was good, it was close to home, stuff like that? No. In that case, Jaws would be a situational need if I wanted to keep the job I got. You're right, there are a lot more options out there now, and nvda can accomplish just about anything that Jaws can, and then some. But if a business is stuck in the past, and they're not willing to change, there comes a time where you have to bite the bullet and take it for what it is. There's a gag I heard on Twitter that actually rings true, and it's a perfect example of some of these situations.
"America is thinking of getting rid of pennies because *they hate change.* But they always decide against it because, *they hate change.*
Read that until you understand what I mean, and then that'll make sense.

then i hope the moderators will carefully consider the post i've written about and eather start warn/ban everyone who supports any form of kracking, asks for free products or simply edit the rules so that only audiogames shouldn't be kracked but that everything else  is fine to talk about openly on the forum.
thank you for taking your time to read my posts. now i just hope you don't dismiss it right away

@sito Here's 1 other thing you got to keep in mind too. A month or 2 ago, someone asked for a crack for the VW voices, and @Nocturnus gave them a warning for it. So yes, they do warn about cracking things other than audio games.

I'd also like to pipe in:
@cito, your not making sense in any of your posts. Allow me to elaborate:
In post 158, you say: "although as i've stated before. as long as audiogames are word games, math games etc or waaaaay overpriced according to what's in the game content i don't see people not kracking them.
let's take crazy party for example. that game should be payed for since it's such an awesome game that is being activly developed and contains so much content+ it has replay value but as for let's say brainstation which is coming soon. why should that be payed. you're likely to play until you complet all achevments then you're done with it, that's a game that belonged to the 90's. not to say that it isn't good, it most certainly has good games, but it's not something that shouldn't be payed for because, one, it doesn't have any goals accept completieng achevements and 2, it doesn't realy offer much when you're done with your singel goal." In other words, you say:

1. If an audio game specifically falls into the category of a word, math, or other game that may have some educational value, people will crack them.

2. Crazy party should be paid because it "has a lot of replay value".

3. Brain Station should not be paid because it "doesn't have any replay value".

Then, in post 165, you state: "@liam i wasn't talking about brainstation in partikular. i was mainly trying to bring up a general example so that people see what i'm talking about. so no, i'm not talking about brainstation in partikular. in fact i've tried the alpha and listened to your stream when you demonstrated it and it has potential. with many good games and such." In other words, you are clearly refuting the fact that you were talking about Brain Station, and possibly refuting the fact that you didn't want it to be paid.
Finally, in post 169, you say: "then i hope the moderators will carefully consider the post i've written about and eather start warn/ban everyone who supports any form of kracking, asks for free products or simply edit the rules so that only audiogames shouldn't be kracked but that everything else  is fine to talk about openly on the forum."
Now, what is so wrong with all three of these posts? It's not only that they contravene each other but that none of them make sense. Let's see:

• You first state that certain games shouldn't be paid because they don't have replay value, according to you. In other words, you personally feel that Brain Station shouldn't be paid just because you think it doesn't have replay value, and you completely disregard the time, effort, and labor put into the games development.

• You then say that you were "only using brain station as an example". Clearly, you weren't; you were, in fact, making it quite clear that Liam's efforts are irrelevant to you.

• In post 169, you make it sound like you want cracking of audio games to be abjured but that you want discussion of cracking *anything else* to be perfectly fine.

This kind of attitude is exactly why this forum is lacking in audio game developers. This kind of attitude is exactly what is making the sited disregard us, though other factors play into that one as well. This kind of attitude is what put people off developing anything for this community. Those on this community such as JimmyDub, Cito, and, to an extent, Enes, who are willing to go to any length to get what they want for free, are the ones who need to be removed from the community, because they endanger this communities further empowerment and development. Now, I'm not saying that cracking should never, ever be done on anything; I am, however, saying that cracking audio games in particular should not be done unless you have a very, very, very good reason to do it. Cracking a program such as JAWS is understandable, though not acceptable; JAWS is ultimately overpriced, by anyone's standards, and the only people who are ever going to fork out that much cash are corporations who have billions of dollars of money just laying around, ready to be spent. In that kind of instance, where the product is priced so high as to be impossible to be purchased unless you have an income of well over $45000.00, I'd just switch to NVDA just to teach FS a lesson (though that obviously won't do it -- their blatant copying from NVDA and performing false advertisement clearly indicates that they need to be expelled from the market, though that's exactly what *not* will happen). Thing is, when you find products, like REAPER, Switch, GoldWave, etc., or games like AHC, Brain Station, Swamp, etc., that's where I do not support cracking at all. Games and programs like I have mentioned are certainly not unreasonably priced; far from it, in fact. GoldWave is a mere $40.00; REAPER is $60.00; AHC is $20.00... you get the gist. Anyone who has managed to either acquire a job, an income that they are able to depend upon and that gives them some breathing room, or SSI (or the equivalent in your country) is able to purchase all of these products with ease and still have money left over. Even if your country makes cracking legal, remember the saying: just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.
To prove my point, imagine this scenario: you started a garage sale and were pricing your items at quite a reasonable price. Perhaps you had an old TV set that used to cost over $500.00 but you were selling it for$50.00, so you were deliberately under-pricing items so that you could rake in more profit. Let's say you had 4-5 of these, to make it more realistic (like a true business would). In total, the total profit value of those would be between $2000.00 (if you had four) ad $2500.00 (if you had five). Let's say you had five, just because. So, you were selling all this unwanted stuff that was fairly priced. Suddenly, this guy just comes along and when no one's looking, they start palming everything they can get their hands on. They even take all those TV sets. And what's worse, they don't pay you for it like they should! They just leave off with the goods, never to return, and you've lost over $100.00 of profit. How would you feel? I know I'd be pissed off, that's for sure. What you crackers out there don't realize is that some of you *are adults*. As such, if you crack a game, and the developer finds out, they are perfectly within their rights to sue you for the money they lost because you did that, and while that's a very, very extreme/remote possibility, it's more likely if your cracking a game from an Indi developer than a corporation. And the reason of "I personally didn't want this game to be paid" or "I like cracking things" will not pass in the courtroom, believe me. That would just give the jury and judge more evidence against you. The alternative is, of course, the developer jacking up the price to regain lost income. So next time you guys want to crack an audio game that is not considered abandonware and the developer is actively working on it, think about what your doing before you do it. I know Liam might not sue you for the lost funds, but he'd most likely be put out that someone cracked his product and would probably stop developing for the community, but the possibility of him getting fed up and suing you anyway is there. What's worse is that if he, or any other active developer does do that, you'll be required to pay *all of it* back. And they can sue you for cracking other games too, thereby jacking up the amount you have to pay even further. What's even worse, of course, is that all of this goes on your permanent criminal record.