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Hello.
I asked Quora and many other forums, and now I decided to ask here. Maybe there is a web programmers here.
All the time before I studied programming as a hobby. Now I need to start making money. The best solution for me is programming.
If we talk about application programming, C#, Java, then there is little work, few orders. If we talk about the web, then a lot of work, a lot of orders.
I know the basics of Python and PHP. And at this time I think what to choose.
By implementing projects, Python is simpler than PHP. In Python, we use only Django, and in PHP we need to study different frameworks, CMS. But in PHP, you can start easier and faster.
I'm interested in which of the two languages allows you to learn faster, you can start working faster.
I'm from Ukraine, and in Ukraine, and in Russia PHP is popular. But I want to work with world freelance exchanges, it's more popular than Python, but experts are needed, but in PHP they do not require much experience.
My goal, by 2020, is to reach a salary of about $ 1000 per month. If more, I will be happy!
Thanks in advance!

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@jonikster, I'd like to gently correct you on a major point -- that applications get less orders and web gets more. Both get lots of orders; really, the thing that depends on how many orders you get is who likes what. Lots of people like web apps; lots of people like standard applications. As for the language you want to use, go with PHP. And, as more than one person has said, jonikster, you need to pick and select. Stop leaping between all these languages like this -- you'll never get anything done if you do.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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I do not jump between languages. I decided for what I will use language for task. But for the web no.

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Even if I use python, for web programming I prefer PHP.
You can create a website from scratch withouth using frameworks IN PHP.
Though the choice goes to you

...

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hello
php is made for web programming
lots of web hosts support it, it is really really fast, and you can write anything in web with it
(wordpress, joomla, punbb, vBulletin, myBB, and lots of forum systems, chatboxes, blogging systems, shops, etc are written in php)
if you ask me, i say go with php

bitcoin address: 1LyQ3hziMC2DTnCtgM3V1zfuZ73P3CYT9P

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Lots of hosts support Python. It's much cleaner, the standard library makes sense and you have lots of great frameworks; flask and Django. Don't be a masochist, go with a good language and pretend you never heard of PHP.

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Also in terms of how many orders there are for what, you need only look at any freelance positions... There are some orders for desktop software, but you can make money much easier with web programming, as there's a much higher demand for it. The other area is in mobile development; IOS and android.

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@sorressean... so your basically telling a new web developer to go with a language that *doesn't* have very many web apps written for it and avoid a programming language that is used in quite literally every sight on the internet that actually is worth calling a "web site" these days....
No, instead,  I have to say that both are readable. Both do great things. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage to PHP is that it practically comes these days with every module and support library you could dream of (FCGI, Fastcgi, Recode, I'm looking at you). Python has the advantage in that it has more libraries to do with general programming and it's not soly focused on web development. The only major, major disadvantage that puts people off of Python, at least for me, is that it is an absolute and total bitch to incorporate into Apache, or really any web server, properly, and get it working, and I know because I've tried. And the result was a completely broke web application. Not to mention that nearly ever CMS framework out there that's actually popular and has an excellent community is written in PHP and not python. The loners are Python though.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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From which area are you getting your resources? Some of the largest sites on the internet run Django, but I guess those don't count? Just because a language like php has been around a lot longer and has more out there doesn't mean it's a better language, and you clearly have no idea of the amount of python web aps out there. I've worked on Drupal 8, which is perhaps the largest CMS out there right now. It's nice, it's usable, but dam is it messy and a lot of that is PHP. Even their swap to symphony is a mess. PHP 7 helps with a lot of this to some extent, but a lot of the resources you'll find out there right now are still php5 based, and even more are using mysqli, which I and many security researchers have claimed is part of the reason SQL injections and various other web attacks are still so possible. I'll ask you, as I do in every thread in which you spew your garbage and uneducated programming opinions to please back yourself up. Google is widely using a lot of python in many of their tools--although they're switchign some stuff to Go, and so is Dropbox, Instagram, and many many others. But I guess they're not big names and just not used all that often.

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10 (edited by Ethin Yesterday 21:47:47)

@9, well, excuse me for being a "mindless idiot with no education in any field at all," according to you. I didn't know I was that "senseless." I guess now I have to back everything I say up because I'm 15000 percent wrong, according to you... and you don't, because your 15000 percent correct. Just [wow]. And don't tell me you didn't intend me to interpret it the way I did in this post; you did, after all, call my post a set of "garbage and uneducated programming opinions." How arrogant can you get? Post 8 was based on the facts I knew at the time. That does not mean it is mindless garbage. Seriously....

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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I did back my post up with examples of huge companies with lots of capital that use the language and technology you say simply isn't used... What more would you like?

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sorressean wrote:

I did back my post up with examples of huge companies with lots of capital that use the language and technology you say simply isn't used... What more would you like?

And I thank you for that. What I would really like is if you weren't such a dick about the things I get wrong, and weren't such a perfectionist. Post 9 was bordering on insulting, because you called the things I say "garbage and uneducated programming opinions," which means I know nothing about programming at all, even if I just might know a few things.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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Here's the problem with your posts. You might know a few things, and that's great. But you tend to speak on things you really know nothing of, which provides wrong information to people. I could really care less if you kept your baseless opinions to yourself because the only person that they would be hurting is you, but you don't. So what we have is people that have to walk behind you to clean up the feces which you're spewing all over posts, and then deal with your sensitive feelings when someone dares tell you you're wrong. Lack of knowledge is fine, we all have to learn somewhere sometime. The dangerous area you're constantly diving head first into is a discussion of knowledge you quite literally don't have. If you're occasionally wrong that's fine, but what you're doing is constantly miseducating posters about the questions they ask, presumably once again so you can feel better about yourself. Stop!

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14 (edited by Ethin Yesterday 22:02:44)

So I can feel better about myself? So I can here myself? What the fuck is wrong with you? That's not why the fuck I post in these topics. No, sorressean, I post because I'm trying to help. I wasn't aware that trying to help, even with a slight knowledge gap about the subject matter, was illegal, because you know all and no one else does. And, really, it seems like your the only one who's bitching about this. I try to help, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I do. But everything I post, about every single matter that you get involved in, you bitch about, because you always find something wrong with my posts, even if my post was as accurate as I can make it. Stop trying to create a fucking hate machine. Sometimes my posts can be rude, but I'm not wrong about everything I post about. I just use what knowledge I have and in the meantime try to learn more about the subject. If you don't like that, then don't post at all, since you clearly are some kind of perfectionist. grow the fuck up.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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@ethin no dude, you're the one who needs to grow up. I'm seriously sick of seeing your posts because all you do is put people down, I'm not the most sun shiny person, and I will find problems with things, but I try not to imply the person I'm addressing is a moron. I am direct, even blunt, and I know this doesn't always sit well with folks. You take this to a whole new level, yes, some programmers are this way, but look at all the ones in this community who aren't, meanwhile, you walk around with a proverbial halo on your head acting like people should get down on their knees and warship you.

Let me just say, in case you legitimately didn't know, because some people struggle with social issues, you are not helping people, you're putting them down, making them feel like pieces of shit to make yourself feel better and that's immature, childish, and not the type of thing we need here. Every one of your posts is a slight against someone or some thing. You can't help but spew your opinions in here, even when you've beat the horse to death, you come back for one more kick. It's not constructive, and its not healthy.

Also, for all this supposed programming knowledge you have, I've seen zero from you as far as working code, so that's one area where you haven't backed up what you've said. So put your money where your mouth is and show us you have this knowledge you proclaim far and wide.

I think a bunch of us have tried to get through to you that what you're doing is not cool, but it just doesn't have any effect. you just need to tear people down to build yourself up, its not a healthy dynamic, and you'll never have any real friends that way. When I say real friends, I'm not talking about people you hang out with on skype or team talk, I'm talking about the type of friends who would drop anything they're doing and come if you needed them, and, a good friend would be willing to reciprocate in that same way. This is something you will not ever experience until you stop with the attitude, stop with the arrogance, stop with the god complex, and get your head back down to earth, instead of floating up in the clouds. Only when you've done this, and can see the mistakes you've made, can you move forward, and begin to really live.

Until that day, I would take it as a kindness, and I'm sure a lot of other people would too that you just quit this destructive criticism of everyone's programming skills, quit trying to incite drama and flaming, and just chill out.

P.S. Mods, I've really tried here to be as direct and make my point while trying to stay inside the rules here. I hope you don't find any problems here, as I've taken sections and rewritten them several times to try to make my point without stepping over the line.

If you like my posts, thumb them up; if you hate my posts,, thumb them up.

*sits back and watches user karma skyrocket with a huge grin plastered across his face*

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16 (edited by Ethin Today 02:58:12)

Actually, Ironcross, I never did any of the proscribed behavior on this topic, or the other topic at the top of this list, until Sorressean came on here and started making me look like I knew absolutely nothing about anything, calling everything I say "garbage and uneducated". It was only after he did that that I started getting harsh. Look at all the posts before 8. None of them were destructive in any way. The same can be said for the other topic. Sorressean posted about how Python was better for web development; I counterargued that PHP would be better. Then Sorressean got bitchy and acted all high and mighty. So don't blame me for being bitchy and pissy right back at him. Plus, I'm quite sure that if someone said that everything you said was "garbage and uneducated opinions" you'd be just as bitchy. I'm sure anyone would. Calling someone's messages "garbage and uneducated" implies that they don't know anything about the topic in question, or that they're completely mindless zombies, if you will. So excuse me if I get defensive. And if you want me to "back up" my posts like Sorressean seems to want only me to do, look at this topic (http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=23924). Yes, I told jonikster to "settle down with." That's not putting someone down. IF you think that's putting people down, then you can say that about Visualstudio and many others who have told jonikster to do just that. If post 2 in the topic link above isn't helpful, and if posts under 7 weren't helpful, then your definition of helpful is either different from mine, which follows the general definition of helpful (providing assistance or serving a useful function) or is seriously skewed. (No offense.) And yes, I pasted the definition of helpful from the dictionary. Don't act like that's some kind of capital offense either -- every single person on the forum has copypasted on this forum thousands of times. And as for what I've made.... well, I'd tell you, but either you wouldn't care or you would doubt that I coded it.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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17 (edited by sorressean Today 03:48:36)

You made multiple statements here:
You "gently corrected" the OP by saying that desktop apps are just as popular as web and mobile apps... To which I stated you are wrong, pointed at freelance sites and moved on.
You stated that Python is not used in any web apps, again which I showed you were wrong about, by pointing at Google, Dropbox, Instagram and many others. You stated that every site which is worth being a site on the internet uses PHP, and my former statement contradicts that quite nicely. We haven't even talked about asp.net and the fortune 500 companies that use that, much less JSP and java-driven web applications.
You stated that every CMS framework worth using is written in PHP, and I was able to point to Django which functions as a good CMS platform and which many very large reputable sites use.
You state that because you with your vast skillset and talent weren't able to configure python with apache means that it's a broken web appp and that this is somehow proof, where as I have deployed tons of python web apps through apache and Nginx and people do it all the time. Can you point to anything in your former posts besides where you're acting like a child and cursing at me that was factual and provided some concrete information to the OP? Can you give me any reason why I shouldn't say that your viewpoints are uneducated if you're batting 0 for 5?

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@16 You can't possibly justify this with verbatim posts from other sites, you can't hope to justify this at all in fact, because you're failing to grasp the points people are making. I wasn't referring to your attitude in this topic, I was referring to your general attitude, which I must say, is rather piss poor. For instance, not once did you offer even a fleeting apology to the people you've tore down with your constant destructive posts. Having an opinion is fine, even expressing that opinion is fine, but when you make someone feel like garbage because they have a different opinion to yours is not. This shows a lack of emotional development and an unhealthy self-absorption.

Do you think about what you say, and how it might affect the people who read your posts? It sure doesn't seem that way. It seems like the only thing you think about is you, yourself and, well you. It's also not what you say, its the presentation. There's a difference between a disagreement, and something approaching a fight or altercation. It's possible to have educated debates where one side disagrees with the other side, evidence is presented, counter evidence ensues, and maybe a change in position occurs, or maybe not, but it still is academic. You turn it personal by disparaging the person rather than the issue at hand. I've seen it time and time again in your posts, almost every single one of them. You seemed better there after a time after certain events had finished their course, but then slowly, you reverted back to this.

I don't know why I'm bothering with this though, it seems a complete waste of my time as it will probably have little to no impact. I'm just annoyed with the constant god complex and attitude.

If you like my posts, thumb them up; if you hate my posts,, thumb them up.

*sits back and watches user karma skyrocket with a huge grin plastered across his face*

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@18, I'm different other places. I don't know why that is. But I am. This is the only place where shit hits the fan. It might be the people I talk to on here, it might be something else.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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I disregard your posts because they're simply not factual. You skipped 4 of the points in which you were wrong and contradicted yourself with the first, then you take offense at the fact that I call you out for providing misinformation. I don't care if you're sometimes wrong, hell... We all are sometimes. But you're not wrong just sometimes, you blast your information out for everyone to see, then throw a huge fit and act like the world is against you when people call you on the information which you've falsely spread. I have a problem with people that are trying to learn getting wrong information because you have to be the first to provide an answer without caring whether or not it is correct. And when your claims are disproven, whether I do it quietly and kindly or more confrontational, you start cursing and screaming like a child and then fall back on arguments riddled with various logic issues to back yourself up, with the final position being to cry all over your post that you're unfairly treated for your actions and to demand that people get better while you yourself haven't bothered to do so in the many many posts I've seen you make here. So as with my other posts, I'll tell you exactly what about your post is wrong and then you can tell me how mean and hurtful and awful of an individual I am and perhaps construct some shaky argument as to why you're correct. I've gotten you to disregard 4 out of 5 points, so maybe at some point I'll get through. This is progress, though I'm honestly not sure why I am trying.
You say: "web apps are more popular than desktop/mobile apps, but all three are just as popular"
If there are three people, and one has 3 apples and the other 2 apples, you can't say the first person has more apples than the other two, but just as many. It's one or the other; popularity is a quantifiable number. Something can not be "just the same" but "more than" something else. So which is it?
There are lots of systems that are moving to the cloud, and just because something is an app doesn't mean it's based in the cloud; there are various distinctions there. Office 365, Google docs and all the google applications, etc. Most notably, desktop usage is drastically declining and people are making applications for mobile devices, which generally are in the form of mobile apps, or web applications which are much more interactive and workable with the rise of higher quality javascript libraries and html5. This isn't to say that desktop apps aren't used, but that web applications are becoming more and more common and thus the freelancer might be better off focusing on that.
For example, on Upwork (which is a relatively well known and widely used freelance website), there are 83 desktop development jobs available as of the time of this posting:
https://www.upwork.com/o/jobs/browse/c/ … velopment/

This is out of a total of 2248 web software and mobile development jobs. This means that desktop development makes up just 3% of this total. There are 220 ECommerce development jobs, and 1134 web development jobs. If you add these two up, this makes roughly 60% of all freelance jobs that are on upwork that are web development related as opposed to simply 3% of desktop application development. If you take mobile, there are 355 mobile development jobs, which makes up 15% of all software development jobs. Please note there is a web and mobile design category that fits both so I didn't include it in either, but it would have increased either one if not both of these statistics even more.

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The thing is, Sorressean, your manner of "correction" is much harsher than you think it is. Maybe mine is too. Now, let me advise you on something you obviously (or even deliberately!) missed:
First, in two, I write: "@jonikster, I'd like to gently correct you on a major point -- that applications get less orders and web gets more. Both get lots of orders; really, the thing that depends on how many orders you get is who likes what. Lots of people like web apps; lots of people like standard applications. As for the language you want to use, go with PHP. And, as more than one person has said, jonikster, you need to pick and select. Stop leaping between all these languages like this -- you'll never get anything done if you do." This post has two parts. First, I never was denying, in this post, that web apps were less popular, but instead saying that they were, in fact, "more popular". I also stated, though, that this majorly depends on the preference of the user. While the developer has a preference in the making of the software, the user's preference is what things ultimately come down to; after all, it determines whether that user will use the software. I recommended PHP because that's been the most popular language for quite sometime (look at http://blog.stoneriverelearning.com/top … velopment; repudiated by http://www.codingdojo.com/blog/9-most-i … -of-2017). However, when I did post post two I did not take into consideration that websites are a mixture of several (for example, Facebook combines the power of Hack, PHP (HHVM), Python, C++, Java, Erlang, D, Xhp, Haskell, and SQL; while Google combines the powers of (surprisingly) C, C++, Go, Java, and Python. (Go is obvious in that list since Google made it.) The second part of post two was to warn Jonixter, again, to stop switching between all these languages and settle down with one. It's not hard to look at prior threads to find him doing just this. My opinion of PHP was certainly reinforced by posts four and five, though four said it was up to the developer.
Then you posted six, recommending Python. I wasn't even rude in post seven, simply saying that PHP was more popular. While post eight may have been harsh at the start, it quickly settled and I posted what I thought about the advantages of PHP vs. Python. It was then that you got all rude with me in post nine. If you hadn't, this entire thing would've never happened. Since then it has been a back-and-forth between you and I. And I honestly think that, if I had called your posts "uneducated" and "garbage" you most likely would've reacted the same. And while you ask for back-up, Sorressean, you leave that up to question. Furthermore, it surprises me that you only want back-up from me and not from anyone else. It might be our prior conversations, it might be be because of some grudge you have against me. But please, stop with the perfectionist act.

"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!]: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out ?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."    — Charles Babbage.

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