2017-10-16 14:56:09

Oh man, some great posts are showing up in this topic!  big_smile

Chris, Swamp turns the 3D landscape (well simulated 3D) and represents it from a top down view.  I was trying to think of how to describe this transition to someone born blind, and I may have a method that will work.

Imagine you are taken to a tank shaped as a large box.  Someone has cut a hole in the side of the box, allowing you to reach your hand inside.  Your hand hits 2 metal bars that are sitting vertically in the tank.  There is not enough space to fit your hand around the bars, but you are able to put your fingers between them to feel past them a short distance.  When doing this your finger tips graze 2 more bars that seem to be in the same position behind the ones you can clearly feel.  If you had to describe the insides of the tank, you would say there are 4 metal bars in a 2 by 2 pattern.

This would be called first person perspective in a video game.  You are down at the level of the characters and objects/enemies in the distance can be completely hidden or partially obstructed by closer objects.  Light cannot get past the closer objects similarly to how your hand cannot reach back to feel what is behind them, so a sighted friend standing next to you would actually share much of the same information you had about the box's insides.  From his visual perspective, he would also see the 2 closest vertical bars, probably the edges of the bars behind those, and depending on their sizes and positions, anything behind those could be completely hidden for him too.  A difference with sight is that it isn't limited by the length, or thickness, of one's hand and fingers.  Your sighted counterpart would almost certainly be able to view further into the box than your hand was able to reach.  Where your hand stopped and was only able to graze the second set of bars, his vision would allow him to continue "reaching" until there was literally something blocking the path completely... or the box was too poorly lit as he looked further toward the back.

Now you remove your hand and are asked to reach down through a different hole in the top of the tank.  You reach down with your flat hand and it comes to rest on the tops of 6 cylinders.  To you, the 6 "dots" are basically laid out like a braille cell.  The bars are too close together for your hand to reach the floor between them, so from this position there is no way to tell how tall the bars are.  The best you can do is rest your hand along the top to feel how many there are, and how they are arranged.  In a video game this would be considered top down perspective.  A sighted friend looking down from above (where you are reaching down from) would experience a very similar scene to what you have felt.  He would see the 6 bars laid out in their pattern, and would likely only be able to estimate how tall they actually are.  I'm simplifying things for these examples of course, but in general the sighted and blind people would share most of the same limitations depending on where they were standing.

Each has its own set of advantages and disadvantages.  Between these 2 perspectives, first person perspective granted the largest advantage to the sighted person.  Your ability to reach inside was more limited than his ability to see inside, since he would potentially have been able to see several sets of bars had they continued going deeper and deeper into the box.  In Swamp, this would have been the equivalent of standing at the gas station and being able to clearly see zombies on the far side of the map at the factory.  The advantages over the blind players would have been too great for fair play.

Now as far as top down perspective goes, I'll elaborate by talking about a chess board.  Once again for the sake of examples, you carefully lower your hand from above to feel for the position of pieces on a chess board.  Perhaps it is a game some people were playing and have walked away to take a break.  Assuming the 2 teams have pieces made of different materials (that can be felt), you would be able to carefully recreate the board and the positions of the pieces in your head.  Trying to do the same from a first person perspective would be a nightmare, and in all likelihood would never really be possible.  The closer pieces would block those further away and you'd never really get a clear image of where everything was.  Your sighted friend would have literally the same problem, and would always choose to play Chess from a top down perspective.

When you looked at the board, we can assume that you worked your way across it, lowering your hand to feel each part of the board before moving on.  This would take some time, but it can be worked out.  Your sighted friend will work almost like having an extremely large hand, that is highly sensitive.  He will be able to view the entire board at the same time, similar to how you could place your fingertips on a few braille characters and read them instantly.  For the human hand the finger tips are the best part at picking up tiny details, while your sighted friend's giant magic hand of vision is most sensitive at its very center.  The further out toward the edges you go, the less reliable it is for fine detail.  At its outermost edges it is quite numb, and can miss all but the most obvious of shapes.  It is referred to as peripheral vision, and generally only helps people avoid walls and bumping into people... though sometimes that even fails, haha!  Our eyes move around because we are constantly trying to put that most sensitive "center" onto what we care the most about, which is equivalent to how you likely move around your hand to keep your sensitive finger tips moving to what you care about the most.

So clearly the ability to view the entire chess board at once gives your sighted friend an advantage.  In essence, his hand is just far larger than yours, so he doesn't need break down the whole board into parts and check each one.  For Swamp, the solution I went with was to simply shrink the size of his hand!

Normally lets say you can feel 12 (3 wide and 4 long) squares on the chess board with the size of your hand.  I know I'm not describing how you'd actually check the board but lets pretend for a moment.  It would take you 6 times of lowering your hand before you had felt the entire thing.  Lets say that normally your sighted friend could "feel" 256 squares at a time (16 wide and 16 long), which is far more than the chess board even has.  To make things more even, I shrink the size of his hand (field of vision) so that he can only feel 4 squares (2 by 2) at a time.  He can process what he "feels" faster than you can, but you can now actually feel an area 3 times in size each time.  The goal was to get you and he to take approximately the same amount of overall time to figure out the whole board.

I've gotten myself a bit far from the original Swamp path, so now I'll back track to hopefully pull this all together and make sense.  Swamp is presented as a first person perspective game in audio.  The player hears the world as though they are down inside of it.  To the sighted player it is visually displayed as a top down perspective game, where they view it in the same way they would look down at a chess board.  In an instant a sighted player will be able to see the positions of all the pieces, which would be loot, walls, zombies, and other players.  This would normally be very unfair so to counter this I have lowered the field of view, causing their "hand" to shrink.  At any given time a sighted player can only see a 20 by 20 grid of tiles, with their own character always at the center.  To move their hand they must walk their character, to know what is further in that direction.  This means they will always instantly know everything that is going on within that small space, but they cannot use their vision to shoot at zombies or hear loot outside of it.

To compare a blind and sighted player more directly, a blind player will regularly shoot zombies that are 40 to 60 tiles away in distance.  The sighted player will have no idea the zombies were even there, and their blind team mate will have already aimed at and shot them!  When up close, the blind player may need to take a moment to figure out exactly where the loot is, or may have to use radars to know how the hallway curves to the left.  The sighted player will instantly know exactly where the loot is, and exactly how the walls of the building are positioned.  Depending on the situation, either the blind or the sighted player will have a massive advantage.  I never found a way to truly make the players equal, but I did find a way to put them into different roles.  With each type being good in a very specific situation, back when I was designing Swamp I hoped one day many sighted players would be in the game as well, regularly pairing up with blind players to form teams to excel in all situations.

You play an RPG and your party will likely have a healthy mix of armored melee guys and ranged support, so you can handle whatever comes at you.  I hoped that one day Swamp would be teams of blind and sighted players for that very same reason.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2017-10-16 16:35:02

CAE, I love post #24. What a great way to describe the neurology of sense involved in this discussion.

Chris, regarding the comment that AHC may be a game-changer...who knows? I definitely don't want to toot our horn too loud, but I can tell you this: a couple of the people I talked to at GDC who are involved in the gaming accessibility movement, who were all very enthusiastic about what we're trying to do, told me straight-up that they don't just want to see us succeed out of generosity. It's also self-serving. They recognize the need for a game that demonstrates how accessible design can be implemented in a way that provides an engaging, high-quality experience for everyone, because that would validate what they're doing, and would be something they could point developers to and say, "Look—this is how it works, and this is why it's something you should want to do."

So, whether it's AHC, or some other project that someone else makes down the line, some day someone is going to create that milestone game that blind and sighted players can both sink their teeth into...and maybe that game will change everything. Or maybe that game will go mostly unnoticed, but somebody will be inspired by it and make another fully accessible game, and so on, and so on, until finally the landscape changes.

2017-10-22 23:57:38

Hi,
oh, GMA Tank Commander, how could I forget it? smile
Yeah, that is imo how audiogame shold look like. Now just combine it with RTR and 3DV, and we have an audio version of Battlefield.

@Aprone very good description, this is exactly the reason why I don't believe sighted and blind players can play together. Or I believe, but not with current technologies.
There is no way to get sighted players to play without theyr sight. That is unreal, when I invited my friend onetime to play a race with wheel on Topspeed, he get scared and told, that he don't want to be blind. Yeah, some sighted people are scaring to close theyr eyes, that is reality. So this isn't a way to go on. instead we must adapt to theyr world, we must learn to play games on sighted level. What we don't have to do it? Yeah, sight. So we must substitute it with something, that will help us. And what can do best this work?
My answer is computer. When we substitute our sight with a computer, then we can play with sighted players. Heh, i can imagine your face now, so I will explayn it better.

Sight is of course important, but it isn't thinking itself. Important are informations, that sighted people are getting from it, like wall on left, car on right, and an elefant infront.
There is not a difference between how sighted and not sighted players are thinking. When sighted player see from gass station, that there is a man targeting him with m40 from a roof of factory (btw, isn't a safezone between them?), he/she will try to shoot him down, or hide if he/she isn't equipped very well. That is logical. And blind player will do exactly the same, he only needs to know that there is such a danger. And here is that difference, sighted player gets that information from sight, but from where can get it blind player? And this is also the point, where computer goes, or would go.

To better understand it, I will take an example. Aprone, do you know, how long time taked me to get out from a first floor of the hospital? big_smile
I do not remember it exactly, but it was a very long journei. But why? What information did I missed when I was bumping to the walls and getting lost in the complex of corridors? How sighted people can get out from this labyrinth? Yeah, exact position of walls and doors. But this is just a halfstep. On higher level, where they are planning and thinking, they see only corridors like lines on map, not walls. i mean the level of mapping, the way how they know where to go. Of course, it is a bit individual, but everyone have this level too, even if strongly supported by photographical memory for example.
And that is something we don't have. I mean we as blinds. Only things we can learn in vr is how to turn and where to turn, but when we want more details about the surface, we must experiment with bumping and so. And this exactly would be role of the computer. Sighted players will look to the corridor, calculate distance between walls and his position, and will imagine a line, where he will go. Now for us. Computer will look into corridor, calculate distance between walls and our position and represent to us a line, where we can go.
Next step. Sighted player goes around the bench with a death rabbit. That is something he doesn't see everyday, he will save it to the memory. For us. Computer see, that we are going around a bench with deadh rabbit. That is something it didn't expected. Because it don't know to which context classify it, it will inform the blind player, that there is a deadh rabbit on the bench.
Now, sighted player becomes an intersection. He see three ways to continue. That number is important for orientation, he will save it to the memory and continue by one of them. For us, blind player arrives the intersection. Computer see three ways to continue, it will inform player about it and show, where next corridors are. Now, blind player can save it to his memory and select, in which direction to continue.
...
After some time of turning off on interceptions, both players get lost.
Sighted player goes in a corridor. And suddenly, he see an bench with a deadh rabbit. That is not a normal situation, where did he saw it? And now he remembers, end of lostness. For us, blind player enters the corridor. Computer see a bench with deadh rabbit. That it didn't expected. It can't classify it, so it will inform player about a rabbit. Hmm, deadh rabbit, that sounds familiar. And really, he remembers for that corridor, end of the lostness.

Heh, I can imagine one my blind friend saying: "That is just a puppet like game!" But it isn't. Are sighted people just puppets of theyr sights? I think not. And the same is also check if this game system is applied successfully, if yes, computer never should to control player, only show him a potential ways in which he might want to move. sighted people are simplifying world around them too, so why it would be bad when did with computer? Only limitation is, that ears have limited amount of informations to take from sound, so they must be given very efficiently, for example beeping navigation sounds are greatly recognisable, but they can totally break concentration to anything other, so choosing of a good sound is very important. Also types of minor informations like doors to the rooms should be annouced, but with sound not stronger that main line sound, but recognisable on the level of subconscious.
Of course, this example with linear navigation is only for corridors based space, when reaching out to the forest or street, there are other principles which can be used. For theyr description I am writing currently few books, so it is inpossible I think to write them to one post, but the main mind is always the same, computer should adapt to the situation and replace computations, which our brains can't do because of our blindness and give us most important informations, relative to the current situation. Sounds like a scify? Yeah, it sounds, but on other side, how a colonisation of mars sounded two years before?
Anyway, for me this is an very interesting topic to think about, because it is on border between audiogames and real life, so any advantage can drastically improve a quality of our lives, when computer can recognise the path and navigate us on it in a game, why it wouldn't to navigate us to trip in mountains for example? But back to the reality, my opinion is, that until blind players don't suffer theyr handicap somewhow, they can't play together with sighted players.

Best regards

Rastislav

2017-10-23 01:00:26

Canes work so well on mountains that sighted people use them. lol Ok, so I think trecking poles are for balance, and maybe to try and clear light brush or leaves etc. (You know, so the snake jumps out before you step on it, instead of when you're in striking distance.)
But yeah, on the one hand, computer-enhanced equivalents to low-tech accessibility solutions work well. On the other hand, overviews and distant turns and what's on the other side of this broad path? I mean, Pacman Talks is navigable, but I compare the experience more to a funhouse than to a sighted person's experience playing Pacman. (Weirdly enough, Armadillo Army had more of a top-down overview thing, which just seems like it doesn't make sense, but that's what it was like for me.)
(But no seriously anyone wanna go platforming in the Ozarks, while it's not-devoured-by-arthropods season?)

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-23 01:53:57

Aprone, I am going to try, and am going to some day successfully get my friends to play swamp. Witch brings me to my question, how's the game doing? I've heard you've had trouble with data being all screwy, the game's still playable I hope? Was gonna repay my subscription again tonight if its still around and try and get friends on there, i told some about it last week and a few seemed sorta interested, gotta try a bit harder tomorrow. I like how you described the graffics in your post 26, i've already got ideas on how missions could be completed... Sort of, with both blind and sighted players.

I am the blind jedi, I use the force to see. I am the only blind jedi.