2017-10-13 17:18:24

Now that Facebook has Oculus, and that PlayStation has their VR thing along with Microsoft trying to develop  their AR HoloLens thing, I am wondering what the future of audio games are for us. The first audio games I played were shades of doom and GMA tank commander. At the time, these games blew me away. If I had to guess, this was back in 2003 or 2004 when I played these games. I have sense branched out and Swamp seems to be the most popular audio game now. I also play Papa Sangre on an IPod touch. Papa Sangre II looked like it had some good VR type feature if it was not so sluggish on the device I played it on. Use of the built in sensors and the nice 3d surround thing they were doing, made seem sort of real almost. I know that aprone, at one time, had some kind of head tracking thing that could be used with swamp. I do not know how well said device works though. I also cannot help but to notice that most if not all of the games I play on my PC do not require a lot of resources. Neither can I help but to notice that most audio games now days do not have a big area to explore.  Note, Alter Aeon of and in itself is not an audio game. Yes, the Mush-Z sound pack thing makes it seem like an audio game with all of the sounds and the like. So how did audio games get started, and where are they going now? I, myself, do not have a good history of audio games memorized or anything, but I thought that knowing where we have been in said area could help us predict the future. Is there anything I am missing when bringing this topic up?

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
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2017-10-13 21:23:27

How they got started is simpler to answer... but where they are going is harder to say. It depends on the community, whether all the current developers are actually willing to cooperate with one another, or whether we'll be having one or two man teams who just develop small little games every now and then. An ideal situation would see more people following in the footsteps of Out of sight Games, banding together with third parties and introducing them to the idea... but few other people seem to be up for that challenge. As I see it, A Hero's call is going to be the biggest step we've taken in probably 5 or 6 years. so where we will go depends on what happens after that game comes out... if more people don't foolow that example, we will never take steps forward to catch up to even the mainstream indie game quality standard and will be given repeats of more side scrollers, space invaders or point and shoot games that call themselves high quality fps titles.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-13 21:53:38

What we need is for all the little 1 to 3 man teams of developers to actually band together. Right now we every so often have a new game come out, but yes, like assault said, most are very simular sidescrollers or button mashing fps games. The games that I can say are close to mainstream games are swamp, stw and a hero's call when it comes out. Were still stuck playing mostly games that were played in the 90s or early 2000s by sighted gamers. I'm not bashing developers or anything, its not exactly that development is bad. Its just that we have very few developers and most work entirely on their own. I'm curious to see what would happen if aprone, cae jones and liam erven all worked together, could end up making quite an epic game there.
We need more open world games. Swamp and stw are really all we have as far as that goes. I don't count muds as being audiogames, because they are text based not audio based. I think audio is more emersive and that's what we need for the future, more MMO games that are entirely audio, and less of the same run left to right jump pits then oh no an enemie spacebar spacebar spacebar kill and so on.

I am the blind jedi, I use the force to see. I am the only blind jedi.

2017-10-13 22:35:59

Only one interjection... STW is not quite close. Otherwise, there would actually be decent moderation... but that isn't quite the point.

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2017-10-14 01:16:52 (edited by flackers 2017-10-14 01:20:33)

My feeling is audio games aren't and sadly never will be, commercial enough to ever truly exist on a par with mainstream video games. There are some audios I've played that are as engrossing as any video game, but these seem to have been made by a few talented people, some of  whom may well go on to greener pastures later in life. One or two gifted people doing audios for the joy of programming is never going to be enough to fully realise their potential. Audio games could be mind-blowingly awesome with binaural sounds and a full cast of good actors, a great script etc, but for that they need to be super commercial. It's not beyond the realms of possibility, but they'd have to crack the mainstream, non-visually impaired market, and that would be a tough nut.

2017-10-14 01:28:12

It's obviously not impossible, as is shown by A Hero's call. All it requires is the amount of people who are willing to make that effort and go through the whole process.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-10-14 02:20:00

Well the breakerbox stuff was not impossible, but I am not sure how jiro did his stuff, but one can assume that he wasn't just lazy.
I put in cash for all his games and only about 5 of those ever came out and he is gone from the net at least right now.
The issues we may face especially if we are new is that we are so confident about what we do that we suddenly find ourselves in quicksand but we are roling on the hype river and suddenly we run out of fuel.
One thing thats a challenge apart of using modern styles and languages is playability.
A game is fine especially a classic with a title like shades of doom, but we now need randomised things, stories and different things, or different enough that we as users find that we can well continue to play.
Often all our games have a finite  end after which they are basically clocked.
I have seen this happen with some sighted games, the games are brought played, then either sold on or simply put away when I asked a friend that put a game away after being so enthusiastic about it for several weeks, he said, its crap and I don't like it.
I then said why.
Then he said, I clocked it, its played, consumed, there is nothing else to do.
And ofcause with steam which is why I detest it in addition to logins there are updates and a lot of extra junk and if a game is clocked and completed fully with nothing left people won't play it all the time long.
And thats the reason I have never stopped playing smuglers, missions are different and I have never truely completed the game even though I have played it for several days straight.
I once had a poker game playing for several months and never finnished it ever.
What our games need is a story wich is several stories, several starts, several ends.
In short a story where while some stuff is the same other stuff is different, and its not up to the story to end its up to you to choose the best end.
Eventually you will go through the endings but by then you will want to come back.
Sadly I have seen this with the bavisoft games.
I wanted to see what they were like, I needed them, I didn't care if they were pirated or not.
But I got them, played them, consumed them, and suddenly I was happy I in fact got the pirated coppies as I had now wasted 80 dollars on 2 games that like a packet of crisps were now totally crap because I had eaten all the content there was to eat and there was no more to be gained so they got trashed.
I do think the next approach is with the mainstream market with the following restrictions.
We can't afford your super gaming grids.
At most the average user will have a business level laptop a custom built desktop or something lower.
While 64 bit is becoming more normal  a lot still use xp, or something else.
You may have a 1 or 2 gb graphics card, and you may have more than 4gb ram, you are more likely to have the internals, and if you need something more than nvda well who knows.
Its pritty much unlikely we will be able to afford top of the line vr headsets.
I have managed to scrape together enough cash to buy the sets I use and was given from a friend's estate another pair but to be honest, I can't see myself spending more than 100 for sets and they have to last a while.
I have a now old 30 dollar mouse, I was given my 300 dollar gaming keyboard for christmas last year.
My computer is an old toshiba which due to the fact I have family may have the ability to replace but most don't usually have the funds.
So our games are probably limited to the stereo field, maybe 3d positional sounds but more binoral sounds rather than full surround sound  7.1 etc quality.
We may have some basic subs etc which I do but thats about it.
I also have a few soundcards but most of us will have the internal cards which are crappy realtech ones and any effects are turned off because they interfier with speech.
Some of use use smartphones and some consoles but for the pc user you have limits.

2017-10-14 03:55:51

One challenge is that gaming technology is changing at such a rapid pace—and gaming standards with it. I actually think VR, and the accompanying advances in head-tracking and 3D audio, presents some really incredible opportunities for accessible gaming. The problem is that the investment needed to get into VR development is pretty substantial. For any indie dev, it's tough to make that investment work when you don't know what the returns on your investment will be; even more so for dev who are developing for a much smaller market, such as blind gamers. The tough thing is that you could start working on a VR project today, and four years from now when you're ready to release it, who knows where the market will be?

One thing I think we haven't considered when asking about the future of audio games is that, someday, it may converge with the mainstream market. I know that seems like an impossible dream to most of us—but there are people in the game industry working tirelessly to make it happen. Their goal would be to see increasing attention to accessibility in gamesacross the board, perhaps to the point that someday we don't have to talk about audio games versus mainstream games—we just talk about games. It sounds crazy, and it's probably a long way off, but there is really a lot of momentum building in that direction. Consider Microsoft's implementation of a speech API for Xbox developers, EA's recent fixes for the visually impaired, and so on. I've spoken to people in the industry who have commented about design meetings where they're starting to ask questions like, "How can we make this item easy to find without sight?" So I really do hope that the future of audio games will simply be games—games that everybody can play.

2017-10-14 09:27:30

point is, while we have some very good developers like Sam, Mason and Aprone, all other devs are eather copying Sam's, Mason's and aprone's ideas, or they only make some stupid games like sidescrollers and shooting side scrollers where only you have to lisson for other enimies and that's easy enough.
And, renember that most muds are created by sited, absolutely all blind people can play muds.
I cant absolutely comment on swamp or STW because I never played them, well, I have tried swamp in offline mode and stw only a few minutes only to go completely ragequit big_smile.
as for post 8's idea, it can be managed. How ever, are mainstream games reddy to recode most of there games to make them accessible? Are they reddy to get more sounds to be more similar to audiogames? That's all that stands in the path of this cool idea. Personally, I really want to play minecraft and stuf but sadly there is not a accessible part anywhere.
Combining this all together, I think that if nobody decides to be in a team. Now, I don't know every developer here personally so I cant who will be the best, but I think that we have enough. On the other hand, development may go in a way of Xbox, play stations, etc. Where basicly use your joystick to play the complex game.
finally, we may only stick to our developers and we know that we can trust them, witch I won't do in the leest, but if that happends then we only have them as developers and then who cares what will be the next.
Just my thoughts.

If life gives you communism, become a communist dictator.

2017-10-14 10:46:11 (edited by Muhammad Hajjar 2017-10-14 10:54:54)

Hi
Well I don't agree about stw. There are (yes) audio games that are close to the mainstream level like Shadow Line, Paladin of the Sky for its content but not sounds I think, most of VGStorm's games are quite good games. Swamp is great also. I think A Hero's Call will be a big thing for a brighter future for audio games.
Edit: woups, how I forgot the BK series? There are few audio games that are valuable, but compared to the early two thousands, seems that our audio gaming world is getting better as time passes.

Kind regards!

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2017-10-14 11:30:09

Sorry for double posting, but let me reply here from a personal point of view.

BigGun wrote:

point is, while we have some very good developers like Sam, Mason and Aprone, all other devs are eather copying Sam's, Mason's and aprone's ideas, or they only make some stupid games like sidescrollers and shooting side scrollers where only you have to lisson for other enimies and that's easy enough.
And, renember that most muds are created by sited, absolutely all blind people can play muds.
I cant absolutely comment on swamp or STW because I never played them, well, I have tried swamp in offline mode and stw only a few minutes only to go completely ragequit big_smile.
as for post 8's idea, it can be managed. How ever, are mainstream games reddy to recode most of there games to make them accessible? Are they reddy to get more sounds to be more similar to audiogames? That's all that stands in the path of this cool idea. Personally, I really want to play minecraft and stuf but sadly there is not a accessible part anywhere.
Combining this all together, I think that if nobody decides to be in a team. Now, I don't know every developer here personally so I cant who will be the best, but I think that we have enough. On the other hand, development may go in a way of Xbox, play stations, etc. Where basicly use your joystick to play the complex game.
finally, we may only stick to our developers and we know that we can trust them, witch I won't do in the leest, but if that happends then we only have them as developers and then who cares what will be the next.
Just my thoughts.

Wo, big gun excuse me but you're talking about a black spot in the audio games comunity. While I agree that Sam and Mason are not bad, but hey, they're not the best, as you're seeming haven't taken a look at those great rpg's and adventure games out there. I'm afraid of forgetting names if I mentioned examples, but from the best like Out of Sight Games, VGStorm, Aprone, Galaxy Laboratory, Nyanchan Games, Pragma and some others if you've looked at other great titles.
Sorry but you're talking from the prospective of those who track only online games, small fps games and the for showing purpose tiny betas who are being made from people like Mason and Sam. I'm not offending anyone guys, but I'd better post my opinions which might be helpful at some point, rather than just complimenting.

Kind regards!

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2017-10-14 12:48:13

I want to clarify about the whole "stuck in the 1990s" thing. Audio Games are barely relatable to 1990s games. Side-scrollers don't inherently suck. It's just that there are like 2 in Audio which are worth considering comparing to mainstream side-scrollers. Sure, sound quality, whatever, but gameplay and content are rarely anything compared to even the 1980s. We have a few titles that push it toward the mid-late 90s, and those aren't the side-scrollers. Swamp, Manamon, and maybe the endless stream of drama-spawning FPSs sorta-kinda invoke 1997-2005. It's not that we need things besides side-scrollers (we do), but that we need side-scrollers that wouldn't lose to Super Mario Bros 2 without a fight. We have BK3, and that's more Megaman without the timing-sensitive traps and puzzles (and way more content than the 1990s Megaman games, so it kinda balances out?).
As a general rule, Audio Games suck. At this rate, the mainstream will become fully accessible, or they'll find a general workaround for blindness, or the world will be devoured by Galactus, before the number of Audio Games which can compare to the massive libraries of pre-PS2/xbox games gets to double digits.

A Hero's Call is a massive step in the right direction, but it's been in development for several years, has done pretty much everything right in terms of the process and funding, and is still not availible. We could have 5 of these secretly in production, now, and nothing will change for the remainder of this decade.
Now, maybe I'm more pessimistic than usual because I have been fighting tooth and nail to get enough sleep and have failed for several nights running, but I'm not seeing anything big enough to catch us up to the N64 coming along any time soon.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
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2017-10-14 12:58:43

@11
Sam and mason were at the top of my hed. I just didn't think about VGStorm or any other developers in general.

If life gives you communism, become a communist dictator.

2017-10-14 19:21:53

Muhammad: I appreciate the shout-out, but for fairness' sake, Out of Sight Games really shouldn't be listed in a list of top audio game dev until we've released a project that can be judged on actual gameplay, and not just from its demo audio :-)

CAE_Jones has a really good point, which is that the development cycle for small indies is unforgiving. Even more so for small indies who can't hope to make a living off their games and have to develop in what time they can find around day jobs—and since the audio games market is such a small niche, that's probably going to remain the case for audio game developers unless we find a way to market to the mainstream as well.

CAE's also right that the issue isn't that we have outdated genres. Check out big releases on Steam and you're going to find tons of side-scrollers. The issue is that mainstream devs are pushing the envelope—creating games with high production values, interesting premises, compelling writing, and so on. That's what we need to be doing. There's nothing stopping a blind dev from making a blind-accessible side scroller with a riveting story, powerful script, and engaging features akin to anything being made today—and a game like that wouldn't be stuck in the '90s, it would be every bit as modern as a 3D Call of Duty clone or anything else.

Big Gun: Regarding my comments on post eight, I'm not saying that the future of audio games lies in developers going back and making old games accessible. With very rare exceptions, that's probably never going to happen. What I'm talking about is developers making new games with more and more attention to accessibility, until hopefully some day the mainstream titles being released are just as playable by the blind as they are by the sighted.

2017-10-14 20:00:24

Hello,
and when also good titles are worsing themselves, that is very hard for us too. Typically RTR, it was perfect first person shooter comparable to Counter strike for example and where is it now? Best is not thatone player, who have best skills but thatone, who have most of health and best weapons, what is that like game about? In Counterstrike good player can shoot you down with 9 mm pistol if he/she is experienced enough, in RTR from new update is it inpossible. I know what I am talking about, I played CS when I was sighted a lot.
I must to state about week ago, that there haven't remained any good pvp fpss, and more sad is, that only normal fps now is Swamp and probably Slender: lost vision. Yeah, there are still Redspot or The killer, I heard from my friend that Samtupy did some changes in Redspot, which make it more equal for players.
Theyr can be good for someones, but for me as an exsighted player theyr are just a toys far from mainstream games, until devs doesn't include support for a mouse and usable full 360 degree movement. In mainstream this is standard, in Audiogames are three games using it and two from them are playable!

I don't know what the situation is about rpgs, I never played them much. Genre of games like Battlefield or Meet the Robinsons, what is excellent game too is better to not talk about, when our community have problems to make normal fps, this looks like an dream under a strong influence of drugs.
Of course, by this I don't want to criticize our devs. Conditions in which they're working are uncomparable with sighted devs, it is amazing that theyr produced what theyr produced already, especially our top devs like Aprone or Samtupy, because they did a very complex job. I am just comparing possibilities of the both markets, sighted and not sighted, pointing that we are very behindhand.

Vr is of course needed to manage, but seriously guys, many players have problem to familiarize with a classical mouse. So what will they do, when you give them glasses with 3D audio and say them to use it for gaming? Many players have problem to purchase a mouse, what is about $5 stuff. So how will they purchase Oculus or Sony vr for hundreds of dollars? I see a huge potential in vr for blind gamers, my opinion is that we must take our market to the level of mainstream games, but that can't be done from day to day, we must begin to familiarize our players with 360 degree active, not passive movement and after they understand what is 3D space about, just after that we can think about virtual reality, because players will have desire to use it, unlike now, when is enough to use arrows in fight for them.
And how can be done this? Yeah, with producing more and more games like swamp, that allows player to use active 3D movement. We don't must to force them to use it, we can make classical arrow keys for passive 3D movement opened for use, but they will leave it themselves, because active 3D movement vs. passive 3D movement is like bow against a sword on a plain.

For explanation about what I mean by active 3D movement and passive 3D movement: by a3Dm I mean a movement system, where you can change you angle direction accurately whenever you want, also during the fight and have still fingers on fire and movement buttons, so you can move, turn and fire at the same time. By passive 3D movement I mean a moving system, where you can do only one thing in a time. For example, you can not turn and move at the same time in STW, not including a firing from weapon and also fact, that basic 360 degree movement in it is thatlike unpractical and slow, that it is better to satisfy with arrow keys in fight.

So, that is all for now, I hope I did not forget anything, if yes, I will write it later. future of audiogames is something I am solving often, because it is very important segment for us and also for me, i am remembering times when I used my pc only for gaming, titles like GTA, CS and of course MC, it was very pleasant. I want all of this genres also in audio form, sadly i am not able to work on all of them at the same time. So I choosed Minecraft, because it is hardest and so no AG developers choosed it, and I hope that remaining game styles will be processed by other devs, because we have technologies for them already, just connect them to the working complex and nice mainstream like game is on the world.

Best regards

Rastislav

2017-10-14 21:28:09

I agree with Joseph Westhouse, we shouldn't include titles that are still in development.  If we include games based on developer promises, USA Raceway would be at the top (or near the top) of this list.  While the game doesn't exist, the odds of it being completed are just as high as they've always been.  big_smile

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2017-10-15 07:09:46

And don't anyone even mention Max Shrapnel. rofl I spent cash on raceway and shrapnel both, but I'd spend it again if those would actually be released by someone with what was promised of them at the time. Now, who knows. lol I'd love to see if castle quest from BSC can make a come back to, but that's just another dream shattered and broken. sadly.
I don't mean to bring up lost games, but if I think about them too much, and what they might have been, I'm still bumbed about the loss of those titles to this day.
sad

2017-10-15 18:26:15 (edited by defender 2017-10-16 17:24:02)

You guys are making me depressed. tongue


A blind legend? The blind swordsman? Zombies! run, Aurifi, rubber ducky, and many others have been hyped as audiocentric games, but are also playable by the blind, and yet people forget that so easily
the Tommy Edison Experience? blind guest speakers at indi dev events? those competitive blind killer instinct, street fighter, and Mortal Kombat gamers getting articles on major gaming news sites like Katacu? and I'm barely scratching the surface, because I'm not even really part of that world, I just pick things up here and there.
This is the best time for audio games we've ever had, at least from what I've seen while part of the community, and that's been for around 12 years.


I have no problem with never having allot of games in this community, I just hope for content, replayability, and quality at par with that of other small Indi teams.
It's utterly unrealistic to expect mainstream quality or mainstream integration, though the small things, like audio cues in injustice for instance, are appreciated and useful, and that's fine IMO.


I get jealous just like everyone else when a sited friend plays something spectacular, which is a thousand miles ahead of what I have, with a massive open world and epic story, but then I just remember the simple fact that I will almost certainly be assimilated into the rest of the world population within a few decades, do to advancements in biotech, and that the profit margin VS cost of modifying existing mainstream games is so utterly infinitesimal that it's not even close to being worth it for a publisher, even for the PR.
E.G. I will change for them before they change for me. And so what, why would I expect anything else, I am a tiny minority, and I have it good where I live, I've got nearly all the necessities covered, I have a place in society even if it isn't quite an equal one, and my government has given me a safety net because the majority of people want it that way.
So yeah, I like games, allot, and other things too, like audio dramas and podcasts and such, but they aren't important, not really, not like braille on signs in public buildings, or bumps on the ground near train tracks, or all the grants I can apply for to get access technology, living skills, and O & M support, so I'm cool with waiting for the most part.


And yes, I understand that this is a gaming site and that we're all here for the same reason, to talk about games and play games, but still, the fact that we can even access the internet and computers in general as well as we can is something to be grateful for.
I'm not saying I like the flood of shitty no effort games any more than you guys by the way, but constantly wishing for something you can't have undermines the enjoyment of what you do have, which, by the way, is still allot better than nothing.
Games are for fun, first and foremost, so if your having any fun at all, the game has succeeded at it's main goal, weather or not it's on par with anything else or not.


I also realize that if I had grown up on mainstream games as a sited person, then been introduced to audiogames, that my view may be different, but it's not like I haven't experienced them, darksouls, skyrim, fallout 3, world of tanks, mk9 and mkx, ss4, injustice, Battlefield 4, mech warrior 3, Resident evil 4, the list goes on, I've seen them played and gotten invested in some of them enough to read the story and look up gameplay, even if I don't own a console or attempt to muddle my way through the more inaccessible ones, AKA the massive majority, for some small amount of satisfaction.
I don't hold it against anyone for trying though, after all how would we have learned that many fighting and rhythm games were at least somewhat playable if no one had dared to take the chance, then painstakingly  spread the knowledge through menu guides and move lists, teaching friends to recognize the sound cues in all the cinematic background noise, etc.


It's not all roses and sunshine, I get that, right now we're in a bit of a slump, the most popular games are getting stale, but for the past few years we've been enjoying a revitalization of a community that had remained relatively unchanged in how it operated for nearly a decade, thanks in large part to Swamp, which gave us a new, higher quality multiplayer experience, much closer to mainstream than what we'd had before, and less so RTR which gave us an updated successor to audioquake, then BGT came along  and gave all the old devs a kick in the ass do to the hugely increased level of output it caused; but also to social media, mostly Youtube and Twitter, which helped to spread the message to a wider blind audience, and then to the mainstream world.


I can't believe I've written almost 5000 characters for this post... Never mind I can, it's what I do. :-D
P.S. Mason isn't much of an innovator, he got almost all of his ideas from BK and Swamp, he can code some interesting stuff, but he is in no way reliable.

2017-10-15 19:41:07

@Defender I agree, but the only thing that i don't like about audiogames that makes me really want them t change isn't even really the games... I have mostly, like 99 percent sighted friends. When I mention swamp to them, they think its cool, but I've never got anybody to try it out. This one guy even flat out refuses to talk about audiogames with me (he's a sighted gamer) he seems to think there really different for people that can see. I don't think they are, I think if sighted people learn to shut their damn eyes for once and use their other sences they might actually enjoy swamp or other games for that matter, hell the curb game was fun for a time, that's really the only game i've played with friends, and that's because of the full graffics. Swamp has them too, but I can't lie and say their like top of the line 4k graffics because they would then ask how i play it so i have to say that they are simplified for low vision users and hardly used and its pretty much all played in audio. Most just say "Oh nice, i'll check that out" and never actualy do. I'm not sure whether people who can see are scared to play games  without graffics, but if so I think that is incredibly stupid and shouldn't be the god damn case!
I don't mean to bash every single person on the planet, and aprone, since you created swamp, I might as well ask you, how did you feel trying out audiogames for the first time, were you like all my friends where you were unsure what to make of them and even putting it off at first? And since you created swamp, have you ever managed to get other sighted friends or family members to try it out? If so, and it worked and they tried it, how, the hell, do I do that? I want to run around m5 with my closest friends from school covering my back and crap with machine gun fire... Basically, I just wanna be able to play a game equally with everyone else. Since I can't play cod or anything like that with people because they take advantage of me, swamp is the closest thing to that. I don't mean I can't play any other game equally, I used to play wii sports or mariocart and mk and other fighting games, but as far as shooters go swamp is pretty much the only way we can play them equally with sighted people. That is, if they're willing and interested in it and not just playing for my benafit. That's not what I want at all.

I am the blind jedi, I use the force to see. I am the only blind jedi.

2017-10-15 20:54:13

Excellent post Defender.

Rory, I am sure I don't experience the frustration in exactly the same way, but I too have run into the wall of trying to get sighted people to play audiogames.

For me personally, I struggle to play audiogames that do not have any graphics.  Even silly things like menus displayed visually change the whole experience in ways I can't really explain.  I've been around for how long... several years right?  In all that time I've only been able to really get into Sounds RTS, and that was because it had graphics I could enable.  I've tried other games, some with graphics and some without, but I can't help but admit that the lack of graphics is likely why the games never dug deep and found a place in my life.  I would play them just to see how they worked, but I didn't ever feel compelled to go back and play them for actual enjoyment.

Philip Bennefal's jungle strategy game was something I really thought I would enjoy because of the rules and gameplay.  As much as that type of game appeals to me, the only way I could keep myself enjoying it was to write my own program to give myself visuals while I played.  Believe me I felt pretty stupid spending the time to do that to an otherwise well written game, but try as I might, I cannot seem to convince my brain that it doesn't need eyeball input to have fun.  LOL!

I wish I knew the answer, if there even IS an answer.  It could just be in how our brains get wired after a life of visual input.  Vision represents a massive amount of incoming information, and I wouldn't be surprised if shutting that off is like asking a drug addict to refrain for a short period of time.  When sleeping or even in a sensory deprivation tank, one of the first things that the brain of a sighted person does is start filling in visuals.  For better or worse the brain hates sightless'ness so much it will flat out start making crap up just to avoid the emptiness.  I know this paragraph won't really help anything, but it shows how strong of a demon we are hoping to defeat.

Because I've seen how much I depend on visuals myself, it's easier but still frustrating to see how it keeps my family and friends from playing the audiogames I've created.  In these past several years, I've only been able to get maybe 3 or 4 family/friends to ever sit down and try audio games.  The only way I got those 3 or 4 people to do it was to show them first that I had included simplified graphics, which of course defeated the whole reason I wanted them to sit down and give them a try.  Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't believe I've ever been able to get anyone to play a game without any graphics enabled.  I have been able to do it myself, but then again I have a motivation to do so that they just wouldn't have.

The best chances you will have are to get yourself friends who grew up with Atari and Nintendo.  I find that people from that generation grew up seeing that gameplay trumps graphics, and are more willing to play games that don't have the latest and greatest 3D photo-realistic graphics.  You'll still have the same struggles talked about above, but at least you'll have a shot.  Younger players have been raised in a world where games are literally judged by how good their graphics are!  I have people in my life who will not Lower themselves to playing a game that is 5 years old, just because the graphics are lower in quality to what is out right now.  They move from game to game, literally disgusted by what they played a few years ago.  I don't understand it myself, but in their minds the older game's entertainment value has literally rotted away as newer advancements roll out better Looking games.  It seems insane to me, but then again a lot of millenial's attitudes seem insane to me, ROFL!  big_smile

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

2017-10-15 21:16:53

Yeah, pretty much. I've had sighted people want to play my games, but couldn't handle it without at least some visuals. Not for lack of trying, mind you. The lack of graphics support is pretty much the only major issue I have with BGT. I can tolerate the occasional glitch, and even the isolation from powerful libraries like ODE or Box2d, but the graphics thing is what's pushing me elsewhere.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-16 03:42:42

The truth is that, as much as we might like to say, "Can't sighted gamers just close their eyes?", sighted people's brains are conditioned to process data in a certain way. It is not easy to flip a switch and try to process data in a different way. It's not a matter of just trying harder—it's a matter of learning how to process sensory input in  a completely different way. So personally, I think that crossover games (games playable and enjoyable by both blind and sighted players) can work in one of two ways:

1. Like Aprone said, there needs to be enough graphical feedback to alleviate some of that sensory processing for the brain. Ease the burden of how much data the brain is trying to process through sound by giving it at least some baseline visuals. The more the better, obviously, but some sort of GUI, however basic, is a must if we're going to expect sighted players to play anything that relies heavily on audio.

2. Limit the amount of auditory processing required to play. Think of a game like Papa Sangre—totally dependent on audio, but actually marketed to sighted gamers. If you really think about the design of that game, you only need to focus on one or two sounds at a time—the chime or whatever it is for the next beacon point, and perhaps another sound that indicates a threat. Compare this to a game like Swamp where you might have multiple zombies surrounding you, plus text reports on health, ammo, etc. For those of us used to relying on sound as a primary source of information, it's easy to juggle all that input—not so for the sighted gamer. Hence why I think Aprone was so wise to introduce some basic graphics.

Of course, the best option would be a game that not only has baseline graphics to ease the burden, but enough graphical feedback that a sighted player wouldn't even know it could be played without sight. That's going to take a lot of work, and is going to require awesome sighted devs like Aprone who are able to do graphical work while still considering accessibility from the ground up when designing—but it's possible.

And regarding projects that never come to fruition—I'm sure the other devs here can relate, but getting a game finished is incredibly difficult, and takes a long time. And if you're working on a project that's large enough to require a team, it's hard to keep the team together for that long of a period—especially if you're not seeing any income to make it feel worthwhile. It's understandable that sometimes teams disintegrate, or projects fall through or get sucked into a perpetual development black hole. Sometimes that's because of management issues, or lack of motivation; other times it's because people have situations change in their lives, and they're no longer able to continue the incredible sacrifice of time and effort required for game development. When I think of everything the Out of Sight Games team has been through—losing members, adding members, having people go through some serious personal situations, dealing with jobs and school and families...it's crazy to me that we've made it to where we are, and it doesn't surprise me at all to think that so many developers don't make it. Not that we've "made it"—wait until we release AHC for that pronouncement...but I'm just saying, no dev wants to promise a game and then fall through. So when it happens, there are bound to be so many reasons we don't know about for why it fell through.

2017-10-16 05:49:27 (edited by Chris 2017-10-16 05:56:29)

This is an interesting topic. Aprone, out of curiosity, what exactly do the Swamp graphics convey? Are they basic? I of course have no clue since I've been blind since birth.

Joseph has a good point regarding graphics. This is why I like the Quentin C Playroom so much. Unlike RS Games, the Playroom displays text onscreen and allows some mouse control. I've successfully played on there with my dad and sister who are both fully sighted. While I don't believe there are any flashy graphics, it still provides visual output and can be enjoyed by everyone.

As others have said, the ideal solution is to create games that are playable by everyone, regardless of disability. We'll see how much mainstream attention A Hero's Call receives. This might be the game that changes everything. I still can't believe Microsoft is now promoting accessible gaming. That should garner a lot of attention considering it's coming from a major software/gaming company.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-10-16 13:34:59

Compare a computer with a itxbox360's GPU but a sound blaster chip from Windows 3.1, with a Sound Max Digital Audio card but an 8600 for graphics processing. Once the brain has spent enough time allocating neural realestate to a specific task, it takes a little more effort than swapping out your audio/video cards to get the necessary processing power to switch focus.
Or to put it another way, your brain has a faster, intuitition-driven system, and a slower, deliberate thought-driven system. Things that are sufficiently reenforced eventually get installed in system 1, and everything else has to pass through system 2. Sight is so broadly useful that alternatives are less likely to find their way to system 1, if someone has sufficient vision. So what comes naturally to the blind, the sighted have to literally think about, and concentrate on explicitly. It'd be like having to consciously control all the necessary muscles in your legs, feet, etc, every time you walk.

Also, agreeing with Joseph. When you aren't a big company, or at least working on something no fancier than Tetris, it's a wonder that anything gets done at all.

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-10-16 13:37:27

Having gone from full sight to full blindness, my brain is now processing non-visual stimulus in a completely different way. As I cross the street with a cane, I can now feel the kerb approaching, like a physical force. I notice the fact that the road arches in the middle slightly to cause water to run towards the gutters. As people pass by, I don't just hear them, I feel them. I can tell when a car is parked on the pavement long before I hit it with my cane. None of this was true when I had sight. My brain was so busy processing visuals it ignored these low noise irrelevancies. Now I'm blind, subtle sounds have been ramped up so much by my visually deprived brain that they have taken on tangible form, like tactile shadows. I can only imagine how much more tangible these sounds are for those born blind. As the saying goes: in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Therefore, in the land of audio, the sighted person is a pauper.
I now see that the best hope for great audio games is for video games to have accessibility built-in to make them playable by the blind. But sorry to be so cynical and pessimistic, money men rarely do anything for the good of others. They may do it for publicity because that's a kind of advertising, but out of the goodness of their hearts... guys like that aren't built for the shark tank of business.