2017-09-17 19:37:31

I would actually say the opposite. I can work out the combat just fine based on the videos I've heard, that would be the easy bit for me. Enemies do in fact cue you when you are being attacked, I saw a video where there were pretty consistent warnings for when an enemy is charging or when you are being attacked from behind. I have made it through a good sized portion of Ninja Gaiden 3, which is also designed to be difficult, so combat in this game isn't the challenge I see, it's the puzzles imo.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-18 08:26:29

@Tensoon the Kandra: Thanks a lot for clarifying.
I have a few questions:
1. What happens if you go in the wrong direction or stand still? Will the voices comment on this? Can you actually go in the wrong direction? I'm asking because in the video I saw, the voices were always commentating the items or things you had to do, such as unlocking a door etc. You mention the voices don't assist you or help by navigation. But have you payed attention to how often they announce something when you do something right?
2. The puzzles you mentioned: Would it be possible to walk in one connor in the room so you know where you are, turn towards the puzzle and do it this way? I mean, if the puzzles are the same, there might be a chance to write a detailed guide for them if you know where you are in the room. Can you give an example on how to complete one of those puzzles?
3. Navigating and walking: Now that might be different on the pc. But do you know if the character walks forward, backwards, left and right when expected? In some games you need to know in which direction the character is phasing, and then pushing the analog stick forward might make the character walk left or right.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
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2017-09-18 08:58:25

I can answer those as well, but others may say different.
1. Of course you can walk in the wrong direction... no game stops you from going any way but the right one. I agree though, that voices do more than just discourage and bother you, of course. They do comment on when you do things right and they do tell you what to do, but not enough that you can precisely navigate the game, only blunder through it which, as I've said in other games, does not make the game playable in my book. anyone can blunder through any game and get through it with enough patience. Being able to complete it through cheer randomness doesn't count as playable imo.
2. The puzzles in this game aren't that clear cut, and from commentated playthroughs I've watched, you have to use the focus feature and still scan for the required runes. Read the copy pasted section from the guide in my post above, and you will get how the puzzles work.
3. Why would this be different on the pc? The game is controlled similar to other action games.. the direction you press makes the character walk around in circles. they don't move in the four cardinal directions... that is a trait rare to Metal Gear solid and afew other games. Holding left or right will make the character continue going to the left and turning circles, as in 99% of other action games.

If Tensoon sees any mistakes, then they can feel free to correct me since I haven't played the game, after all. this is all guesswork from watching other people play the game and reading guides.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-18 10:13:24

Spoiler Warning

The Permadeath is just there to let you feel helpless exactly like Senua. The curse will never reach your head. It even resets completely when the game thinks the Player isn't looking.

We are pleased, that you made it through the final challenge, where we pretended we were going to murder you. We are throwing a party in honor of your tremendous success. Place the device on the ground, then lay on your stomach with your arms at your sides. A party associate will arrive shortly to collect you for your party. Assume the party submission position or you will miss the party.

2017-09-18 10:17:07

Hmm. Are you sure about that? I'm curious where you got that tidbit from. Not arguing or doubting you, just curious about the source of that tip. lol

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-18 10:48:46

Various Let's Plays and comments from other Players. I'm quite sure that's true.

We are pleased, that you made it through the final challenge, where we pretended we were going to murder you. We are throwing a party in honor of your tremendous success. Place the device on the ground, then lay on your stomach with your arms at your sides. A party associate will arrive shortly to collect you for your party. Assume the party submission position or you will miss the party.

2017-09-18 12:57:19

Okay, addressing all the comments.

The voices do tell you when things progress the right way, even though they may contradict what you are supposed to do.  For example, they may so "no, don't go that way" when you are actually supposed to.  They are there as an atmospheric tool and nothing more.  I watched my friend get lost once and he backtracked for nearly 30 minutes in complete silence.

I googled the permadeath, it appears it is a lie, people are actually quite annoyed that the game blatantly suggests it and then don't follow through.

As for the puzzles, I don't know if you can stand in a specific place and then angle the joystick correctly.  What I can say is that I doubt this would work.  The game does not really play off in a building with square rooms.  I have no idea how you would locate a specific portion of any area.  I will check when he plays again though.

as for the camera moving by itself to fix in the direction you are running, I don't know if it does this, but I doubt that it would not.  It is a 3-D game, if you had to always switch your focus yourself it would frustrate people.  Games with fixed cameras just don't get made anymore.  If that is what you want in a game, rather play JRPG's, they usually have this mechanic.  I recall that both tales of games on PC worked like this.  I used to fix my camera on North, then I could navigate the whole map with the basic four directions without up moving me north the one moment and east the next.

I do think the puzzles would be the deal breaker here though.  I will check it out and let you guys know.  I don't know through how much effort you are willing to go through a game.  If I have to read a guide and count every step just to be able to move I don't really want to play it.  With that said though, I do see ow a game like MGS can be navigated since it is basically built on a 4 direction grid that allows 8 direction movement.  But, if this is what you expect here you will be greatly disappointed. 

I have a huge game library ranging from the early 90's and I could still play most commercial games this past May.  If someone makes a topic of what you need in a game to make it playable I can list a lot of titles that might be worth trying.  It might take some thinking though since a lot of games have one or two puzzles that would instantly make you get stuck, but I am sure I can contribute. 

I think the list should expand, especially with the new OCR in NVDA.  For example, I was curious to see how well it can pick up content in games and I saw that it can read everything in Final Fantasy 9, including menus conversations, HP, MP and whatever else you might need in battle.  Also, that game has fixed camera angles and sectioned areas making it quite easy to navigate if you play with a guide, even if it just lists the exits.  The menu even has a spot that tells you the name of the room you are in.  It is true that usually at least 3 or 4 rooms share the same name, it could at least tell you when you are moving in the right direction at times. 

I never mentioned it though because I have no idea how anyone would navigate the world map since the camera is not fixed there, the sectioned areas fall away and so does the ambient noise.  You might be able to play the game half way before you get stuck.

2017-09-18 15:39:04

it would be interesting if you can make a topic for a list of game that is playable enough.
as for this game, I won't get this one, just trying to mess around with the navigation without finding the right place where the objective is, messing around with that blocking system which I think is similar to for honor, and most importantly the puzzles that are of course impossible for us to complete.

going in to the wilds, collecting pokedex, and capturing them are my kind of thing,
training them, making them evolve, and generally making them stronger is my ultimate goal,
fighting other manamon tamers, winning the tournament, and fighting octoros are what these manamons like to do,
and ultimately, I become the master of mana!

2017-09-18 17:23:35

What I tried to say above is that I have a huge history when it comes to video games, but not so much when it comes to playing video games blind.  I don't know what a game needs to be playable enough.

If someone told me that blind people consider MGS playable two years ago I would have had a hard time finding the statement plausible.  I never even tried playing that since it requires stealth and stuff.  I don't have any experience with playing with a guide like you guys do.  I have always hated guides and still do. 

When I was in high school I played Silent Hill 4 and I remember it had all these super dark sections and I could not see what was going on.  I used a walkthrough for that, but I eventually dropped the game because it frustrated me too much to have to check the guide each and every step of the way. 

Give me a checklist of what a game needs to be considered playable.  I am guessing fixed cameras and  small areas.  What about auto target when fighting/shooting? What about menus and item inventory, is OCR essential? Does that mean it has to be on PC? Does a game being considered playable enough mean that as a blind dude you have to be ale to play through it from start to finish without any sighted help? I can think of a few games that are perfect, but they require eyesight for one puzzle, does that make it not playable enough?

Please think hard about what it needs and I will see if I can make a list.

2017-09-18 19:06:43

@34, a game that is considered to be playable is the following:
1. the game is fully completable from start to finish, without needing any sighted help at all.
2. special features like auto aim / auto lock when fighting, or even a locator like in ninja gaiden 3 or watchmen is like. that way, with only a press of a button, your character will turn in to the direction that you're supposed to go, without you turning your character manually.
3. menu structure that is easy to memmorize, or menus that are not wrapping, so we can count how many options that are in a menu.
4. navigation. I've just mentioned the locator above, however this is another thing that can make navigating a bit easy to memmorize. when a character hit a wall, you won't hear yourself walking. in that way, you can try to do a little backtracking until you find the right way.
5. fixed camera when turning around. normally, if you turn around in the game, you'll also turn the camera angle, which makes it a bit impossible if you want to look around at things. with a fixed camera, you can freely look around without turning the camera angle. for example, in game of thrones, if you push the right analog stick, you'll look around, but not turning your character in 360 degrees.

going in to the wilds, collecting pokedex, and capturing them are my kind of thing,
training them, making them evolve, and generally making them stronger is my ultimate goal,
fighting other manamon tamers, winning the tournament, and fighting octoros are what these manamons like to do,
and ultimately, I become the master of mana!

2017-09-18 20:21:52

Tensoon the Kandra, the best thing I can tell you is that everyone has a different definition of what a playable game is. Hanif's list is a good starting point, but there are more, or less, criteria, depending on the gamer in question. Fixed cameras and small areas don't matter to me personally, nor does autoaiming, since shooters are rarely playable. Samurai Warriors 4 is playable soully because of its AI controlled partner that fights alongside you and makes its way to the next objective on the map. Sometimes, all a game needs is something like that. And the games most certainly do not have to be on pc! I also have quite a history with games ranging from the early 90s until now, and I've been totally blind all my life... never been a PC gamer.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-19 07:34:49

@Tensoon the Kandra: Thanks a lot for your last comments on Hellblade. It makes sense and makes it less playable for sure.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2017-09-19 17:00:03

Well, reading the list of criteria I can think of a few, but the issue is that I cannot guarantee that the games are what you are looking for, I don't know if I am forgetting a puzzle or something that might ruin the game.

For example, yesterday I recalled Onimusha.  It was a whole series of games by capcom that are like resident evil with swords.  I had the fourth one in mind, it had a lock on system for battles, it has segmented areas, so you will be able to direct someone quite easily.  Even the puzzle boxes can be solved with a regular game walkthrough from gamefaqs.  Then I remembered that there is a puzzle three quarters through the game where you have to look at things on a wall, count them and enter the number on a door.  The number is random, so you would get stuck.

Final Fantasy VI for the PC might be playable if the OCR can manage to read things, but writing a guide for that would be the undertaking of a lifetime.  There is no indication of when you stop walking, so it navigates like pokemon but has no bump sound when you run into something.  Also, I never finished it all the way myself, so who knows what might pop up later in the game.

Everything I had in mind yesterday does not stop making the running sound when you hit a wall.  I will go back and check a few though.  If I find something I will post it.

2017-09-19 19:05:50

For me personally, stopping when you hit a wall isn't that big of a deal breaker. Good audio cues areall I really need... and either a navigation aid, or a more linear, segmented area type of game such as Onimusha dawn of dreams, which would be perfect except for some of those puzzles. I'm a huge fan of that series, and with sighted help from a fellow gamer friend I beat the first three games, all Japanese versions.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-20 12:50:22

@Assault Fread Onimusha Dawn of Dreams is exactly what I had in mind.  That is my favourite game in the series and one of my favourite ps2 games period.  Tell me, for which aspect of the previous three games did you need sighted help?  That would give me a better idea of what stumbling blocks to avoid.  I mean something small might just ruin the game completely.

I always played large and long RPG's.  If there was just a few tweaks available I think Dragon Age 2 on the PC could have been playable.  I finished that, and at no point could I see anything other than the mini-map and some of the menu options which you can probably still do with OCR.  That game had auto targeting, it even had a search key where your character will look around for loot or unopened treasure chests.  The only issue is that the maps were quite large, and being able to see a bit on the mini-map let me finish that.  Unfortunately I don't have it anymore, so I can't see if there is some way of making it work.  I still have a PS3 copy of the game somewhere, but I bought the PC version specifically because it had that search function which the PS3 did not.

2017-09-20 17:54:23

Onimusha 2 was by far my favourite. Dawn of Dreams was the one I never finished, didn't have that spooky element that made the first two games so amazing... but the definitely still good games for sure. The problem with games in that genre is, aside from needing to figure out where the tiles on all the puzzle boxes were located, there's no way to tell where objectives are if you can't see the map, or don't know where you're going. This isn't just for this series but any genre that is open world or has exploration of any sort... if you have no way to learn the map, you can't know where you're going. Common sense... going from the starting point at Yagyu village to the cave to speak with Jubei's mother is all well and good, but how do you get there? Finding the oni orb in the third game with Jacque is all fine, except you have no way of knowing where to go. The same in Dawn of Dreams. Even the first stage, dawn of nightmares, has the main character getting lost because without seeing the map, all you can do is wander the area until you stumble across the next enemy. And later on, when you need to run from one point to another to find an item and bring it back, or complete a puzzle that requires you to match tiles or numbers which is a trademark of the series, that's also very hard to do. Plus a massive inventory and weapons management, not to mention locating the save points. The first three games were even moreso, because of how much less linear the game was compared to Dawn of Dreams which is the only game that has actual stages.

All that is about Onimusha, but pretty much applies to anything. The only open world games that can be played without vision are either games where there are no objectives and your goal is simply to make it through killing enemies, or with objectives but has some sort of object locator or way of centering on the camera to point you in the path you are supposed to go next. Ninja Gaiden uses this as its camera focus, Resident Evil's guide takes the form of a PDA, and Samurai Warriors 4 does this with a tag system where the character you aren't controlling is directed by the AI and always goes to the next active objective so you can simply switch between characters, though even that doesn't always work. In short, open world games like RPG's and the like aren't just a case of whether it is playable or not. Many parts may be, but there are just enough bits in most games to make them impassable if you don't have some usable vision or someone else who does. Onimusha, the Yakuza series, etc... all amazing games and with most of the major story segments and battles perfectly beatable. But the wandering in between and puzzle solving are where the challenges start presenting themselves. Metal Gear solid works because of its basic grid system, where everything is laid out essentially on a game board, but unfortunately, that was and is more the exception than the norm, which is why the latest metal gear games aren't playable anymore.

Discord: clemchowder633

2017-09-20 19:57:36

Now that is the answer I wanted.  Or rather, the amount of detail I wanted.  You just basically killed half the ps2 library by excluding games with exploration.  I played Digital Devil Saga earlier this year, and it plays exactly like MGS as far as the map goes, but the map is enormous and has several branching paths that sometimes lead to dead ends.  So, despite menus being accessible with OCR and perfect navigation mechanics, I can't put it on the list, because there is no way anyone is going to memorize that map. 

If you basically only include games with self navigation mechanics, I will need to think very hard.  I can't say that I recall any of those other than the ones already mentioned. 

I have been thinking about it all day.  I can't even remember half the games I own.  I will have to wait until I can get to my old games and actually see what I used to play before I can provide any input.  I mean, there has to be something.  Even though I could see, my eyesight was not great, I stumbled my way through most games.  I got lost in Onimusha often and I asked for sighted help once or twice with those games.

2017-09-20 20:03:17

I don't think you need to dig that up. Most of us who play mainstream games do plenty of investigation as is, but some extra input and a fresh perspective is always good! I shouldn't say that it excludes every game with exploration, those games are still very much doable, if people have the patience. Some totally blind people here have beaten MGS, after all. Because even if exploration is difficult or the map is large, if there is sufficient audio detail that conveys information to the player, then the chances grow significatly bigger. So I wouldn't be quick to assume what games are playable, or not. You'll almost never get an objective list together, as I've said before, since everyone's definition of playable is different. Someone may find digital devil saga playable if they are willing to explore the branching paths and dead ends.

Discord: clemchowder633