I could probably write a book on specialist education, as in my time I've been the only Blind person in an ordinary school, been to a completely specialist school, and been in a unit for blind children in a nomal school.

I've now lived on my own at university for a number of years where once again I'm the only blind person (and the disability service is pathetic so I need to sort stuff out myself).

The problem with the special blind only school was that people got an amazingly unrealistic outlook, that it worked by rules which were possitively victorian, and that those people who left had no idea how to deal with ordinary people.

In fact this is my problem with a lot of blind people I've met in the Uk, they went through the specialist education system, and now have now idea how to deal with real situations and real people, and are generally far extremely cleaque orientated and only want to talk to other blind people.

It is an interesting observation I've found that despite the fact that probably %50 of the sighted population are interested in computer games, not one of the specialist educated people has ever shown an interest in audio games.

They fall very much into the crowd who expect everything there for them.

It's not surprising government policy on education has changed, and now blind children go to normal schools, ----- though how well that works clearly depends uppon how good the school and the people in it are.

My experience with the Vi unit as a teenager was horrendous, sinse it was stuck in the worst school in the county, a school where people pulled knives on teachers.

lets just say that experiences like roblas were about the best I could expect, ----- and I'm not even going to talk about the worst.

As Cx2 said, it's a matter of ignorance. It also strikes me as a matter of prejudice in it's most literal sense, ---- ie, pre-judging, particularly thinking that someone belongs to a different species just because their eyes are disfunctional.

I have noticed that English people are considderably worse than norwegians, Americans, Germans and a few others at treatingVi people reasonably for some reason.

My usual response to "shal I go with you to the loo" or "do you need to use the lift" is to simply turn round and ask "why?" and get the person to actually think how much sight is actually required for them to climb a flight of stairs or use a toilet, ---- the only irritating thing is I seem to have to do this far more with English people, ---- than with people of other countries, ---- in fact I had one American director who was shocked by the fact that during the first hour of a rehearsal nobody else spoke to me. When I explained this was because people were going through the "whaaaa! he's blind" process which any new group of people I meet seem to go through, she was down right shocked.

But this is turning into a wrant, ---- so I'd better stop.

Dark, you say the english are the most ignorant group of people you have had to deeal with, but is it possible that this only holds true for the older people in this group?  Despite the fact that I don't lookk it, don't sound it, don't usually act it, I am,  100 percent Mexican.  Most people find that tough to believe, and for whatever reason, I couldn't tell you why, I've always been looked down upon by my own race.  Perhaps they dislike the fact that I made something out of myself?  That I could actually work my way through school and graduate an honors student?  That I am a musician with many other diverse talents even though I'm blind?  I don't know.  I was born in the United States, but have visited Mexico where quite a few of my relatives live enough times to know and remember that what I have here is always more than what they can acquire over there.  Even with the border only minutes away from my current place of residence, it's absolutely impossible to tell that living conditions are steadily growing worse on the other side.  Once you visit and see some of the horrors for yourself though, you never forget.  In any case, the Mexicans I speak of are on both sides of the border.  Regardless whether I am in the states or whatever, their ignorance goes further than any I have ever experienced from American families.  For a while, I thought it was just a Mexican thing to be ignorant with the blind/visually impaired because  it is something they don't see on a regular basis.  when I studdy the situations that I've been in now though, I find that I haven't had as much of an issue with the younger individuals as I have had with the older ones.  They are curious, they ask questions, and yes, some of them come across as quite stupid, but I feel that they are more accepting.  Either way, I don't think I've ever come across a race that displays more ignorance than my own, and that, my friends, is a hard reality to admit.  It saddens me, hurts my pride, but I've learned to deal with it.

Robla, that sounds all too believeable. The people who I've met who came out of that system really have problems adjusting to reality. They are highly qualified, but have litle idea of, ---- or confidence in basic sills, and expectations which aren't reasonable.

On one occasion for instance, I was discussing prospective university places with a group of people, and one blind person from a specialist school mentioned that I shouldn't go to York university because their disability service was so bad, ----- apparently when he looked around the university he fell in the lake!

Now, mobility in strange places is tricky, ---- but methinks something is seriously wrong if you allow yourself to fall into a lake!

In my experience Robla, i wouldn't describe specialist schools as military, ---- they are more similar to highly regulated victorian schools, ---- everything (even down to cleaning your teeth at lunch time), is regulated by a bell, if you say "I watched such and such on Tv" your told angrily by the teacher "You mean you listened to it" ---- in general the entire environment seemed so contrived it was unreasonable.

I can't speak about mexico Nocternus, ---- as I simply have never been there. I certainly don't mind curiosity at all sinse obviously if people don't ask questions, ---- people won't learn.

The thing I find most odd in England, is that despite a lot of governmet iniciative and pushing to try and get people to recognize that people with disabilities are of the same species, ---- people have a totally unrealistic view, and a perception that people with disabilities are essentially different.

When i meet someone new for instance, I've often had the experience that they side step around words like "watched" and treat me with a kind of distance. Frequently, before I get any sort of question like "how much can you see" or "how do you do thing X" I get a diatribe about offending me. I've recently taken to actually asking people "why would I be offended?" and actually getting them to think about things.

Yet, this isn't the general perception. I only have to be getting off a train for some idiot to forceably grab my arm and attempt to propel me in one direction or another. I think at base it is often not "me" at all that people are thinking of, it is a general idea they have in mind about with a blind person is, ---- an idea which is completely at varience with the truth.

The problem is, despite government protests, this idea stil rules people's individual thinking.

My brother for instance spent eight years applying for jobs in the legal profession, and was constantly given extremely flimsy reasons for rejection, ---- he was under qualified, he had no experience, he had ticked to wrong box on a form etc.

These were very blatant excuses, ---- for instance the job he was "under qualified" for, was a job requiring two A levels, ---- basic end of school qualifications, where my brother was applying with a law degree and legal practice course (the necessaries for qualifying as a Celicitor), ---- yet he was apparently under qualified.

Because people cannot legally say "we're worried about employing a blind person" they make up excuses.

This has been a general experience of mine from the university light opera society, to choices in any given field.

It is unsurprising that in the Uk only 20 percent of blind people are employed, ---- and I'd be willing to be that a good half of those are employed by organizations like the Rnib which exist purely for blind people.

Btw, this is an interesting discussion to me, sinse not only am I writing a phd thesis attempting to reclassify and redefine disability in a way which may solve some difficulties, ---- but also because tomorrow I'm having my mobility assessment to be put on the guide dog list.

Amusingly enough, the guide dog trainer who I saw last month, --- doing the inicial chat actually said in a very streight forward way "Your not like other blind people, --- you already go out and do things, most people we look at need a push to get them out of the house"

Which was blunt, ---- but probaly true.

This has distinctly and most deffinately turned into a wrant, ---- so I'd better stop here.

Well they do technically teach skills like cooking etc, ---- though I admit i learnt most of that from my parents and from personal experimentation.

The issue with special schools is they focus entirely upon education. In truth, the education and teacher standard you get is better han in a mainstream school, ---- I was for instance studdying matters in science at ten which I then didn't study in a normal comprehensive for another five years. This is just a consequence of them formulating their own corriculum.

The problem is, in an environment where everyone has a visul imparement, matters get to be contrived. There is always a routine, ---- a framework, which makes things totally unrealistic.

For instance the special school I went to actually had one up staircase, and one down staircase, on th basis that a lot of vi kids running around on stairs would be problematic.

Very true, ---- accept how often do you encounter that sort of thing outside the system?

Special schools also get amazingly cleaque orientated, and many people do indeed have no confidence to associate with anyone not from that school, ---- an especially anyone not visually impared.

i suppose I have a bit of a downer on the system, sinse my best experiences have always been myself being the only Vi person in a reasonable sited environment ---- just as is currently the case at university, ---- and the fact that my mum was a major victim of the special school system didn't help either.

I must actually confess other than obviously my mum and brother, I encounter very few blind people in everyday life, ---- in fact I know myself that because I've met so many who have been victimized by the special school system, I have a miner prejudice against blind people and several organizations who have similar atitudes (the rnib I've often found to be one).

On the other hand, some organizations like Guide dogs, ---- and their holiday section (who used to be called guide dog holidays but now are called winged fellowship trust), I've found really useful.

Sounds familiar, accept if you were caught going up or down the wrong ttairs at the special school I went to, you'd be in humungus trouble.

In fact I used to have a reputation as one of the worst trouble makers in the school sinse I only tended to follow the ystem when I thought it had a point.

As I said, not a good thing at all. I've seen a lot of blind people who went through the system who have that atitude.

for instance, if in conversation I mention a friend of mine they'll automatically assume that friend was blind, and be surprised indeed if I say my friend wasn't.

I've also found them severely cleaque orientated and insula. One of the most depressing experiences of my life was going to the so called "blind drama association"

Who apparently rehearsed and put on a production with music and acting.

It actually turned out the "music" meant making up words to a tune written by their pianist, and all the characters and such even most of the dialogue, was based on passed events they'd done and totally unfathomable to outsiders.

Worst of all nobody! actually came to view the production beyond their own sponsors, ---- which was down right miserable.

Oh, and did I mention that because I wasn't part of that group, they treated me liek an alien? I ended up spending the entire five days I was there with a couple of mad scousers,  ---- who were themselves there for the first time only, sinse everyone else was only interested in talking to established members of that cleaque.

It's a very depressing state of aaffairs, ---- though interestingly enough I've not noticed it half as much in Vi people I've met from other places like Germany, holland, norway or the states, ---- it's possible the better social atitude there also gives a better atittude to blind people themselves?

Remember some people try to give you what they think you should have, not what you would actually benefit from the most.

lol!
i use things like that quite a lot!
and i always try and find different ways rather than step counting, as it kinda puts me off what i'm doing, and then... some rather annoying lamp post might get in my way!
On the subject of guide dogs, i'm not sure if she'd be ready!
Because the local authorities and so on are so crap where she lives, they didn't introduce a cane to her until she was 14, and she's been  blind since she was seven! hmm, not sure what to do really, and nor is she!

Lol Cx2, ---- I've usually heard the opposite, but I find that all too believeable.

Guide dogs don't just do dogs Robla, they do kane training and such as well even things like cooking should it be needed.

There was one fantastic lady I knew who started as a Vi teacher but went on to become an expert in disabled education, ----  she'dbe exactly the right person to deal with a situation like your friends', ---- but unfortunately she's retired.

Stil, as Cx2 said, a secondopinion is a good idea sinse people can be amazingly ignorant about Vi issues, ---- and that very much includes people in the services (don't even get me started on the rnib).

Back to other things though, the one occasion I do use step counting is on stage during productions, sinse then it's vitally important where I am precisely, ---- pluss, there is usually music to step too. Also, sinse I need to be look out towards the audience I can't look for site based mobility clues as much as I would normally.

In the usual course of things though, step counting is something I never use. I just memorize sets of land marks, be they site based ones such as coloured shop fronts or signs, tactile ones like paving marks, steps or  particularly objects like metallic doors, ---- or indeed scent or sound based ones, ---- there is one important turning in Durham which i find simply by the fact it has a sub way on the corner.

then again, my spacial logic and ability to memorize mental maps and position is actually pathetic, ---- worse even than normally due to some brain damage when i was born, that's why I use land marks and memory instead.

Again, this does sound like an Us vs uk difference, sinse in the Uk, most people seem to assume because you carry a cane you have intrinsically fewer brain cells than most other humans! the amount of times i've had someone speak to me as though I'm an idiot or attempt to man handle me across the road is rather ridiculous.

I'd in fact rather people did do the dare devil thing than assume I'm intrinsically useless.

This is particularly trying when i ask someonethe location of a loo, and have to  to explain (sometimes quite forcefully), that no, I'm quite able to go to the loo myself, I just wish to know where the door is!

As to the job thing, ---- again, that's vastly different over here. In the Uk, twenty percent of registered blind people (which also counts people with certain amounts of vision), have jobs, and I'd be willing to bet that three quarters of those are employed by blind only organizations.

My brother spent five years sending off applications to lore firm after finishing his training, sending off over 100 cvs a month, and some of the excuses he got were ridiculous.

Under Uk lore, someone cannot be refused a job on basis of disability. Unfortunately though, this doesn't stop potential employers from making up something entirely random and spurius as an excuse, ---- sadly to my cost the same goes for student societies, recreational groups and anything else that there's generally some sort of application process for.

On one occasion, when my brother was attempting to apply for a legal secretary job which didn't even require a degree, he was refused on the basis of being under qualified, ---- despite having a degree and legal practice course.

Then, there is the issue of assumption, where people assume they know something about disability instead of asking. Another job my brother pplied for was court officer, ---- ie, duty celisitor for a number of courts. He was refused the job, and when he made enquiries, it turned out that the legal applications service assumed that he couldn't travel to different courts sinse he couldn't drive, ----- obviously they've never heard of a buss, much less a train, or taxi.

I'm afraid I'm rather synical about the hole employment and inclusion business, sinse peoples' atitudes seem intrinsically wrong.

I myself am doing a phd at the moment (actually attempting to provide a workable ethical deffinition of disability), but have no hopes of getting a job afterwards at all, sinse however all I really want to do in life is write and perform on stage, ---- this isn't really a concern.

Btw, the blind swordsman thing rather reminds me of uswi (appologies for mangled spelling), from rurone kenshin, ---- amusing, as he was both a blind spearman with super human hereing, ---- and indeed a sadistic evil git! ;D.

Interestingly enough, I was recently talking to someone from Worcester, and they described the stalf as "making them into robots." Now, methinks something's got to be seriously wrong for them to say that!