2017-06-21 13:06:18

... so, in the time-honored tradition, I decided to borrow from Latin.
I was most interested in filling out an imaginary chart of sensory-related terms, but if anyone wants to turn this into a wordsmithing / English Stack Exchange in Miniature, have at it.
(I think this is iOS's fault, but it makes formatting posts troublesome, so I'm finally complaining about it: this is a multiline text field, but braille screen input does not let me add linebreaks. This means I have to turn it off, tap the return button, find the reply box again, confirm I'm still at the end, then return to typing. It is frustrating and unwieldy and still the best accuracy/speed tradeoff without an external keyboard. sad )

  • Complete the pattern: see / hear / feel, visual / audio / tactile, optic / acoustic / haptic, sight / sound / ? you'd think this would be simple, since smell and taste just serve quadruple duty all over their 2/5 of the chart, but "feeling" and "touch" and "texture" don't cut it. Maybe it'd be more clear if I said "light" instead of "sight", or used them in a sentence? See/look at the sights/lights, hear/listen to the sounds, feel/touch the feelings? No, that's not right. Textures sorta works, but texture is more the tactile equivalent of color/colour and timbre. So clearly, we need a word to mean the most basic unit which can be felt via touch - the tactile limen, you could say.
    So, after countless minutes of research, and no pre-existing answer appearing, I dug through latin declintion tables until I found something that fit. it had to sound good in english, but make as much literal sense as possible, so I went looking for something in the passive voice. I did not know about the supline case when I started, else this might have gone quicker. Nevertheless, I found a candidate which seems to meet all of the criteria perfectly, even being an infinitive with a familiar plural.
    So, one sees light/lights, hears sound/sounds, and feels tactum/tacta. And someone not bothering with Latin pluralization and going with tactums isn't so bad as some of the pluralization-of-classical-words fails that are become commonplace. In this case, though, i'd expect tacta to be used at least as, if not more commonly than tactum, sorta like bacteria is more used than bacterium. And, well, light and sound can be uncountable, and infinitives kinda tend to be uncountable "so far as verbs go, at least), so we're probably good either way. Now, if only some amazingly effective innovation would make these useful... tongue

  • But wait, what about the Emperor? I mean... what about palpable? I didn't spend as much time on this one, so I don't really remember. Palpo / palpatum / palpatibam sound ... fun? Palpo is "i feel", (compare to tango, "I touch"). i forget the other two. (To be clear, tactum = "[that which is] to be touched".)


I thought I had, like, at least 3, going in. Huh. Well, English totally needs a simple equivalent to Japanese "ne". Even French let's "n'est-ce pas" be used generically, even though it literally means "isn't it?" Now, "ain't" got generalized long ago, but personally I'd rather "ain't" be the refusal to pronounce "amn't" it started out as, so I ain't using "ain't it" for the English equivalent of "ne". Maybe I should just start speaking Canadian English...

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-06-21 14:59:22

Go and study philosophy, you will get all of the precision word sense functions to your hearts content, especially in papers on functionalism and synaesthesia, heck it is the first time I encountered the words quale and qualia, meaning a generic experiencial unit of any sense datum.

Then of course if you don't find a word in philosophy that covers what you exactly want it to you simply make a term up and define it for yourself, I do this quite a bit in my thesis despite me being primarily an ethicist.



btw, one of the best German  which my lady has taught me and which I now use quite a lot is "yine" this is one we really! need in English.
As you probably know ja (pronounced ya), is yes in german. and "nine" is no. So "yine" which is pronounced as to rhyme with shine wbut withy a y sound is when something has both a yes and no answer.

The problem is you couldn't do this in English, ---- since yo and nes both mean something very different big_smile.

Another one I really wish we had in English is a gender neutral set  of pronouns that still implied humanity but did not reduce to objective, eg, you can't go  using it and it's of people, (disturbingly enough Edith Nesbit does this of the children in all of her books, which makes them sort of worrying for the status of children's classics).

"there" is a clunky alternative since  heavily implies group or group consciousness,  anyway there is  singular of there, --- -you can't say went into the bathroom and washed their face" if talking about a single person but not wishing to give a gender.

I did rather like what Fredric Pohl does in year's of the city, where he imagines a time when he and she are replaced with 'e him and her replaced with 'em (sounding like umm), and his and her's replaced with 'ers.

He even sees boy and girl used of children replaced by a universal "kid" which is sort of wrong big_smile.

The only time he uses he and she in that world is for   hemale and shemale which were the descriptions of each gender.

That one actually sounds attractive, albeit it does make you sound a bit like a cockney big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-06-21 16:48:36

For a brief moment circa 2014, made-up gender-neutral pronouns, such as zhe/zir/zirs looked like they might catch on. Then everyone gave up and settled on singular they, somewhy.
People do seem to say "yes and no", sometimes, but I get the impression the nuance is different. And yain is just shorter. English does have a few other affirmations... but those doan't seem to portment very well, either. Neah, nye, nea... Neah isn't taken when spelled like that, but "nah" is already a negative. Aea? Yeo? Noes would be kinda tricky... Yeno? That might just work, you know? tongue

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-06-21 17:40:25

I am not that keen on the z pronowns, they sound a bit  harsh for an English sentence and are a bit too alien.
One woman I did hear actually wrote a book with one character who was entirely called @they@ throughout the narrative on the basis she didnj't want to reveal the person's gender, but apparently this made the book feel very clunky to read.

That is why I rather liked Pohl's solution of simply dropping the first letters and taking one each of the possessives.

Yaknow sounds a bit too American for my liking,since usually in English English only the uglier, shorter dialects tend to shorten you to ya, it's part of the local Nottingham accent that I killed, so I wouldn't wand yaknow to stand in for yine.

Yine is actually a nice word in itself and it's one my wife and I do use together, albeit I don't know how many people would get what we're talking about.

Another word which I really wish had a bit  definition is the word @love@ it's a catch all term that covers so much of a conceptual mess that it's unbelievable.
then again, even if you separate out the griek agape, ---- i.e love of one's neighbor or ethical love, Philos, i.e, liking or friendship, and eros, i.e, erotic sexual love, you still end up with such a huge quag mire in each term.

Eg, is a happily married couple experiencing philos or Eros? and if you @love@ a friend is that Philos or Agape?
What if you @love@ a computer game or a book or an author's work?

And it's still worse when "Love" becomes a verb which can relate to anything from a relationship, to a deep liking, to physical love making.

it would be nice to separate all oof these concepts out, but while there have been some pretty good attempts, most people don't pay too much attention to them, ---- heck these days most people just go with "I heart" and leave it at that big_smile.

then again before I go on a big rant about people these days having a reduced vocabulary due to prevalence of text speak  low attention spans of readers causing description to be a dirty word in writing terms methinks I'd better stop.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-06-21 20:29:52

Man, @CAE_jones. You are kind of making me miss my Japanese class. I loved studying that language. Ahh, good times. Anyway, as to @Dark's comments about the word love, the English language used to have the word Charity to work with some of the problem, but it's one of the contextual parts of English. Much like the word miss, actually. Is CAE_Jones making me late for a class to type this reply, no. He is making me wish I was taking that class again. Yet, miss can mean different things depending on the context. Oh, and don't get me started on the dialectic differences in different types of English.

I have a website now.
"C: God's Programming Language
C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
"There, but for the grace of God go I"

2017-06-21 23:43:09

Hmmm Jaseoffire, I thought English still! had the word charity, albeit the concept it embodies is sort of out of fashion these days big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-06-22 00:04:59

Hmm, @Dark, so it does. Of course, as of now it means something slightly different. Though, it isn't that far from the way it might have been thought of. From being used as a sort of brotherly love, to a more manifestation of such love. Of course, we're now leaving the English language as a whole, and travelling to the magical world of philosophy at this point. To be honest, with the way English is structured, it is one of those languages that is meant to begin taking other words and assimilating them. While many languages have these facilities, English to my knowledge was sort of created with this sort of thing in mind. As it was started as a language consisting of mainly a sort of German, but had a few other languages mixed in. The language continued to evolve from there. Of course, now with the language having a global presence, it has become a lot more fascinating what different cultures have done with it.

I have a website now.
"C: God's Programming Language
C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
"There, but for the grace of God go I"

2017-06-22 11:50:31

@Jaseoffire, actually if you read any books on virtue theory you will still find "charity" in the sense of the faculty of generally being well desposed towards other people is mentioned there,  my Sinicism does rather suggest that is probably the only! place you find it other  as the moniker for a bunch of organizations who often use it as a way to get tax breaks for their business (the Rnib, aka royal national institute  for the blind hear in Britain is rather terrible for this).

@Tjt while I do wish English was phonetic in spelling, one thing I will say is I love! all the ambiguities and different terms, the fact there is! so much nuance, one reason why text speak conversations and books that don't bother writing descriptively piss me off since it's like  someone going into a five star restaurant  and asking for baked beans.

I confess I've never really seen the point of Esperanto other  the way it is portrayed in Red dwarf novels, basically as a status symbol, since nobody actually speaks it, and unlike cool invented languages like elvish there isn't anything unique to read in it.
Then again I confess I find the actual sound! of Esperanto extremely ugly with it being such a mishmash of European languages, on the few occasions I have heard it.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-06-22 15:10:12

Speaking of the z pronouns, the pronoun"ze" was used by author Zachary Sergi in the Heroes Rise series (published by ChoiceOfGames), when referring to the Zehir (a gender that is neither male, nor female, but at the same time both male and female).
The zehirite replacement for his/her is, as you may know, hir (that is, "her" with an I in place of the E.)

“Can we be casual in the work of God — casual when the house is on fire, and people are in danger of being burned?” — Duncan Campbell
“There are four things that we ought to do with the Word of God – admit it as the Word of God, commit it to our hearts and minds, submit to it, and transmit it to the world.” — William Wilberforce

2017-06-22 18:59:05

@Dark, yeah, it isn't much better here across the pond, honestly. LOL!!! As for Esperanto, I think I remember hearing somewhere that it was meant to be a global language. Of course, I don't think it caught on. To this day, I think that English still remains the more global language. I'd say that it's because of its versatility, but I know very well that it's because English speaking countries at the moment serve as the current powerhouses of the world. LOL!!! Much in the way Latin used to be the chief language back when the Roman Empire was the major power in the world.

I have a website now.
"C: God's Programming Language
C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
"There, but for the grace of God go I"

2017-06-22 19:25:11

Well As I'm learning being married to an American, that strange americanese language you have over there has some notable differences, which my lady and I often have rather amusing conversations about big_smile.
Philosophy actually is! in some senses the study of language in that it often involves discussions about what words mean, or what words should mean, hell my doctoral thesis is a redefinition of the word "disability"

I'll say though that I do love English, I love the different words, the melody created by different patterns of speech, the tiny nuances that even apparent synonyms give a piece of text, one reason as I said why I hate to hear the language being used uncreatively and dislike books that basically read like film scripts.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-06-22 21:08:23 (edited by afrim 2017-06-22 22:57:54)

Hello,
As a student of English, I can say English is one of the easiest languages I've had to do with. If you're taking up English as a second language, or as a third language, that is, English may be an essential requirement to begin a masters degree, or your employer wants you to have a basic level B1 of English, in this instance, English is fairly easy. But if you want to study English academically like me, that becomes a little tricky, though I can say the experience has been satisfying so far as I've learnt many things about this language and its culture. One thing I've never been able to understand; why on this planet the Opposition to the separation of the state from the Church of England should be called antidisestablishmentarianism. Couldn't they, for example, find a shorter term for such a simple decision? One work by Lewis Carroll I find particularly astounding; Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, an entertaining book for children, but amazingly elaborative in language.  A book whose phrases have been quoted by numerous linguists in many case studies of language, particularly in the field of Semantics. I've read it, not to enter the world of imagination, but to experience the work you can do with language, and this book really uses language wisely, in fact more creatively than some other complicated books. On one occasion I find English difficult; literature; I spend more hours looking up special terms than actually reading the book. There are some authors whom I cannot really understand because they use language in a quite weird manner, one of them being a metaphysical English poet, called John Donne, an author I think I'll never be able to understand.
I may consider learning French, one of those languages I used to dislike due to its odd writing rules and pronunciation, but to be honest, it's really melodious and it has a rich vocabulary. One language I think I'll never come to understand in terms of its vocabulary and pronunciation, that is Dutch; a mixture of Romance, Latin, Germanic, Slavic, Arabic, African, and God knows what mixture of other language families.

2017-06-22 22:11:01

You know, I think this is the first time that I've ever heard English being called an easy language. As far as I was aware, English was considered one of the most difficult languages to learn. @Dark, that thesis sounds interesting. I'm sure it would be a good read.

I have a website now.
"C: God's Programming Language
C++: The object-oriented programming language of a pagan deity" -- The Red Book
"There, but for the grace of God go I"

2017-06-24 14:02:47

@Jasioffire hopefully my thesis will be reasonable, we'll see unfortunately the university are bent on  up my ability to actually finish the damnable thing but that is another story.

@Afrim,  John Donn is a beautiful poet, but if your struggling with meaning of the words I can see why you might have trouble, indeed this is true of a lot of poetry since much revolves around nuance and ambiguity. A friend of mine is doing a doctorate on French poetic styles which  creative writing in French and I can't imagine that.

Then again my lady speaks absolutely %100 fluent German having lived there for 17 years, and occasionally she's played me German songs or told me amusing German lyrics which I get once she's explained to me, indeed I can't speak german but I can sing in it, ditto with Italian (though I do at least know enough basic conversational Italian to possibly get by if I were lost in Italy). I think though singing in a given language, and especially having to sing as performance can put you in touch with a little more of the rhythm and flow and meaning of things at least.


Sadly I confess French isn't a language I'm particularly fond of or interested in learning, though I might have to sing in it at some point if I ever wanted to learn Hoffman. I find the  syllables and  tonal quality very odd in French, ---- let alone the completely! irrational spelling (French is worse than English for not being phonetic and English is bad enough), big_smile.

Btw, If anyone loves language I'd highly recommend the doctor Who audio play "ish" from Big finish.
colin baker (who plays the sixth doctor), loves words (well like me he's a fan of gilbert and Sullivan's light operas), but Ish is if anything a celibration of language, heck the plot  revolves around a linguistic conference where "ish" proves to be an alien and sentient word with the power to remove all language from it's meaning (the plot is very nuts but if you love words it's a treat).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)