2017-05-17 09:52:10

At the times when I was using Windows, I used NVDA helping sometimes with ZDSR, but We was cool as I looked in to it in 2011 if I remember

If you want to contact me, do not use the forum PM. I respond once a year or two, when I need to write a PM myself. I apologize for the inconvenience.
Telegram: Nuno69a
E-Mail: nuno69a (at) gmail (dot) com

2017-05-17 14:13:12

OK, so purely out of curiosity, I checked out System Access again. Former Serotek employees can't even recommend it anymore, however a couple of observations in my case are: that it did not correctly install on my (snapshotted, of course) XP VM, crashing with an exception in kernel32.dll; and that, in any case, it came bundled with all the other Serotek nonsense (you could not simply install the screen reader alone).

So, that's it, then.

Just myself, as usual.

2017-05-17 16:09:51

@Chris, I do know there is a Jaws demo, but since I have no hope in hell of affording it, either in initial license or upgrades, it really would be just idle curiosity at this stage.

Were it $50,  or even $100, maybe,  but at this point probably a better use of my time would be getting more familiar with nvda since unless Supernova really gets it's act together in it's next few versions Nvda will probably be my main screen reader from now on.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-05-17 20:54:15 (edited by turtlepower17 2017-05-17 20:56:52)

Jaws is so big and bloated because of the OCR feature, mainly. Also, Research it most likely isn't helping matters. If these were optional features, I wouldn't mind, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous to make people download things they might not even use. When I was a JAWS user, I never used Research It. I feel that it probably is useful for those who are just getting started with using a computer. But, then again, it would be much more empowering for them to learn how to use Google, or another favorite search engine of choice, rather than letting a screen reader hold their hand. I also object to the OCR package being included, because I think I used that thing a grand total of twice ever since it came out, and that was for testing purposes. I found that most PDF's I've interacted with could be told to play nicely if you converted them to text, usually with QRead, but there are other workable solutions. And, honestly, this was the only real benefit to the built-in OCR that I had foreseen, the ability to interact with PDF documents. Then again, I don't really use them that often; a restaurant menu here or there, or maybe a bank statement if I really need to comb through those for something, although these things have pretty much all been solved by my acquisition of an IPhone anyway.

And don't even get me started about why the JAWS training materials should be an optional feature. Oh, wait, I don't have to make a case for that, it should be pretty obvious why. I am also quite displeased that FS found it necessary to push their podcasts on you. Why that needs to be included in a screen reader is beyond me. If NV Access tried that, first there would be a rightly deserved uproar, then people would be told, in no uncertain terms, that they were able to type the address for NV Access into their web browsers just fine before. Nothing has changed, nor has their ability to add the site to their favorites suddenly disappeared. So where FS gets off doing the same thing and getting away with it, I have no clue.

The point is, what sense does it make, especially for people who have limited data connections, to download an installer that could very easily be cut in half just by removing what I would call bloatware? As I said, I don't deny their usefulness to some. And the Vocalizer voices are also an optional feature that must be downloaded. Why can't OCR, Research It, and the training book be the same? Oh, and FS Reader as well. I personally don't find that one as offensive, since I don't use a lot of Daisy books, and since accessible Daisy players are hard to find, I actually can see a strong use case for it. However, I'm told that FS Reader tends to crash a lot and is very slow, so I don't know.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2017-05-18 00:55:51

I've never gotten Fs reader to work; make of that what you will.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-05-18 09:16:00

n@30: Buyer's remorse/guilt. They spent upwards of $1000 (and no idea why it is that price, or why a lot of physical goods that are accessible are marked up on certain organizations), so they feel like they have to defend it or at least, explain to themselves why they bought the software and paid the asking price.

That, and Jaws is a well known screenreader. . So people feel like it's worth $1200 or however much it is. That being said, I don't agree with the pricing at all.

Then again, when you're buying your own stuff....ya, things like that are, sadly, nudged into luxury status, which is wrong for something that is essential to use a computer for a large number of people. Yes it's business pricing but the average user can't easily drop a grand on a screenreader then go down an upgrade path.

/opinion

Oh and, I'd be all for a decent, $30 to $50 screenreader that works cross platform, is stable, is lightweight, and is....actually...ya know, worth the asking price.

IMO FS have a lot of issues, but they are certainly not the worst company around.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

2017-05-18 11:05:53

Open Source projects don't have the same constraints and limitations that commercial projects do. NVDA can crowd source alot of the code work, technical support, translations, documentation, and hardware support through their community, which is basically a free bottomless skill pit. They also accept donations and sell training books and certification, though there are also plenty of free guides written by the community, and as far as i'm aware they don't licensing anything from anyone. Even in the unlikely event NV Access should up and die, the source code and NVDA will live on through its community for as long as people care to maintain it. Linux is much the same way, and its slowly dominating the world.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2017-05-18 14:48:27

yeah, 35 has it right.  Take a look at how far Android has come in just a decade.  Ten years ago, the iPhone was the hype of it all.  Today, I know more people who own droids to iOS devices.  That changes when you get into the blind community; I know more blind/VI users with iOS devices than with droids because iOS devices are overall easier to use, hold your hand and don't tell you to install anything other than the apps you wish to use.  Even here, however, droids are quickly catching up; droids will, I believe, eventually catch up where accessibility is concerned, much like NVDA ahs caught up to JAWS in many regards.  Today, we aren't bound by the money restraint; we can have it free and use it that way for the most part, and so what if facebook's main site works better with JAWS anyway?  The losses are minimal, the chances of success with a free screen reader like NVDA are greater than they ever have been before, and the urgency to make FS quit raising prices to their own ends is not as prevalent as it once might have been. In short, big bad monopoly, otherwise, nothing to see here, children.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-05-18 17:03:58

@35:
Fair point, however.....it's not like Jaws is the only thing FS sells, they do have other revenue streams and as MS showed, you can sell quality software and shift more units by lowering a price point, and getting more people buying a $100 screenreader, than having a few people buy a $1200 screenreader, it is simple economics. If Jaws was the only thing FS were marketing then they may very well eventually have wound up in trouble simply by pricing themselves out of the market. As is, I do feel they could have marketed WindowEyes as a cheaper screenreader for home users, and kept Jaws for the higher end business type users that can drop four figures on it for commercial usage. That though would make way too much sense wouldn't it?

@36:

Not when companies willingly pay for the business license and use it. Businesses buy expensive software and enter into license negotiatitons that state you will use Jaws at work and like it and you are not, legally at work, allowed to use NVDA/WindowEyes/Narrator/etc. A common example of this is a company using MS Office instead of OpenOffice for example, despite OpenOffice being exactly the same function wise. As long as companies are willing to cough up the licensing costs, that in itself will keeep FS thinking they can raise the prices and then such.
Also no, it's not a monopoly in the slightest, because there are alternatives and you are free to choose what screenreader you use, . To be a monopoly in the legal sense, not just the colloquial sense, FS would have to have a significant market share, be able to fix prices and exclude competition. The fact NVDA, and other sceenreaders exist means, at least according to the letter of the law, FS do not hold a monopoly on screenreaders. As per the FTC's information.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

2017-05-18 18:04:24

@post 30, I think you have a misconception about comercial products. A product, which is sold at a particular price, is not designed especially to meet only one's needs or desires. It is designed to meet all the customers' needs with all the features that it can possibly offer, and if missing one, the company should be eager to add it to the product. Consider iOS, for example, do you need the Zoom service? Do you need the stocks Ap, do you need all the text-to-speech voices included in Voiceover? I would personally say no to most of the above questions, but there's supposedly someone somewhere out there who needs any of them. Consider, for example, a sighted user. Does he need any of the assistive features like Voiceover, Zoom, Assistive touch, or any other of them found on the accessibility section? I don't think so. In most of the cases, they post questions on the forum, like, what is Voiceover? Why do I need it? How the hell do I turn it off? These features are there because someone needs them, and there is not only a single category of people who uses the iPhone or the iPad. The same is true when we consider JAWS. It's true that you and I may not use the OCR feature, nor FS reader, nor research it, but my friend may use some of them. What can he do if any one is missing? Shall he ask the company to have them delivered on demand? That cannot work because there will be a crrowd of people waiting on the line, or thousands of e-mails waiting for an answer. The solution is to include all the necessary features on the product so as to attract more and more customers. JAWS follows that strategy too.
I think some of the features you mention can be taken away from JAWS in the first place, particularly OCR. If you just disconnect from any network, the JAWS setup package will continue the installation, without any error. It will display a message though, by the end of the installation, but that causes absolutely no problem. As I said, just disconnect from any network, and everything will be fine. FS Reader can be uninstalled as well without having any effect on your current copy of JAWS. It's as simple as that.

2017-05-18 19:13:20

I asked GW for my SMA counts to be added to my existing JAWS license, which already had a single SMA count, to enable all the feature flags, and to take my license back to Pro. Result is that I now have 18.0+3, which, really, isn't too shabby ...

Of course, I am absolutely not going to boast about this fact on a random forum full of blind people, in order to inspire the kind of bitter resentment and envy felt by users of other screen readers, who (for whatever reason) cannot afford a high-quality, commercial screen reader that every government and corporate client, and his dog, will happily pay for.

No, siree! Absolutely not. big_smile

Seriously though, NVDA is perfectly adequate for many (most?) types of applications that you will meaningfully use, just like VO on the Mac. But, I think it's fair to say that JFW is needed for robust support for certain applications. MS Office is probably the best known of these, if we're being brutally honest here.

Just myself, as usual.

2017-05-18 19:53:43 (edited by turtlepower17 2017-05-18 20:00:35)

I think that it would make much more sense to have two different packages that you could purchase for JAWS, a lite edition, and a full edition. The lite edition wouldn't contain Research It, OCR, FS Reader, etc. I bet that would cut the price significantly. But even so, the lite edition should still be a choice, even if they both cost the same. NV Access has it right. You can pick and choose which add-ons you want, and it's not like the add-ons are difficult to find. Furthermore, with a very few exceptions, the size of NVDA's add-ons are so small that they're practically insignificant. For most of us, hard drive space isn't something we have to worry about. But I don't like having things on my computer that I'll never use. In my case, Research It and OCR for Jaws fall into that category. With NVDA, I can choose whether I want to install an OCR package. I can select all kinds of additional features that may or may not be useful to the next person. All I'm saying is that, if FS took a page out of that book, my disdain for JAWS would decrease exponentially. Of course, FS is not the only company that's guilty of doing this. Office also contains a lot of bloatware, as do most Windows computers themselves if you buy them off the shelf. The difference is, with a Windows computer, I can format it and start over, building a system from the ground up that has exactly what I want when I want it. Office is actually a closer comparison to JAWS in the sense that you can't just pick and choose which apps you want, so, well, I just don't use it. If I ever do need to use it in a professional capacity, I'll grin and bear it, but I won't like it. Same with JAWS. I do think this whole fear of open source software in the workplace is ridiculous, but that's a rant for another day.

Also, going back to mmy earlier point about empowerment, who feels more satisfied? A person who learns things by trial and error, and a healthy dose of frustration here and there, or the person who constantly needs tiny bits of information spoon fed to them, the person who constantly leans on others whenever they need a question answered, the person who can't tolerate failure? I would certainly say the first person has a better time of things, generally speaking. Taking things like learning disabilities out of the mix, or other factors of that nature, of course. Unfortunately, people in general, no, this is not a rant about those damn lazy blindies, because I don't think that's a real thing, are becoming more and more dependent on technology to do all the heavy lifting for them. I'm just as guilty as the next person of this. I use Siri to check the weather, and I dictate my texts if I just can't be bothered to type. There are probably other things I do that I don't even realize or haven't thought of in those terms. All I'm saying is that NV Access created a screen reader that is designed to bolster the user. Freedom Scientific did the opposite.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2017-05-19 03:06:19

So I got an email with order confirmation information saying I now have a JAWS license. However, I can't find my authorization number. I sent an email back asking what to do. Why did I get a generic email with no registration info?

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-05-19 07:03:45

I think that's less true now than it was in the past. You do have a valid point, but NVDA is not nearly as intimidating as it used to be in its infancy. When I switched to using NVDA, I adjusted quite well. The only thing that took me awhile to get the hang of was object nav. That is a bit more complicated than using the JAWS cursor. But most commands that NVDA has are similar enough to JAWS commands that I don't understand why it's not as easy to master, unless you have to use a specific application which works better with JAWS. In that case, of course it makes sense to use it.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2017-05-19 08:55:23 (edited by magurp244 2017-05-19 09:05:08)

@DracoSelene89
It could be that windows eyes was too similar to Jaws and they wanted to consolidate their products, their recent bundle deal though seems interesting. A 90 day renewable license for $179 for both Jaws and MAGic, it seems like an attempt to get new users to opt in to long term milk licencing by pricing it in a more affordable range. In the short term people may feel their getting a deal because of the absurd $1100 base price, but long term they make a lot more of a sustained income off them through perpetual renting.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2017-05-19 13:02:50

Perhaps this is complete naivety, but am I the only one who feels like we should start seeing this as an issue of right rather than privilege?  How many years have we had screens and devices with them?  How often have you come across a device on a shelf that you can't use because either, A, it has no buttons and depends entirely on its display or, B, the menus are so complex that memorization is highly an unlikely way of navigating the device?
Companies have come and gone, some I imagine with the great intent of giving us an equal playing field, while others it is obvious, with the pure intent of creating a centralized system under which they can take as many under their umbrella as possible.  I don't believe we should sit around arguing about whether or not FS has empowered users through JAWS; I'm actually thankful to Dan Clark for all the amounts of advice and knowhow provided on every Daisy book and other recordings I've heard, starting with tapes that shipped with JAWS 4.51.
These recordings provided the basis by which I was able to learn windows and sometimes stay ahead even of sighted individuals.  Priar to that, I had some experience with windows 98, and JAWS was there, guiding me through every step of the way.  Once Windows Vista came out, I took the leap from XP without hesitation and had an altogether good experience because I knew what kind of hardware was necessary to run it successfully.  It was different, but doable with some learning.  Windows 7?  Same thing.  windows 8?  MS did a number on us and JAWS didn't work quite as nicely at first, but by then NVDA had picked up the slack.  All the same, it was material provided by FS that allowed me to get comfortable on it, even if I didn't end up keeping it.
If you take a look at what Apple has done with iOS, you can clearly see that everyone who has an iPhone is using it without added expenses.  Here is the obvious evidence that those who use such a device can be both more creative and productive members of society.  Grab an iPhone and an Apple watch and you have a huge selection of tools at your disposal, from navigation and mobility apps, to apps that will read sheets of paper aloud to you, to apps that'll help you shop for goods without ever leaving the safety and comfort of your home if you don't need to.
Information, human contact, entertainment and productivity software become available to everyone who uses voiceover with just a few swipes and taps; I just got done asking Siri to help me grab Crafting Kingdom.  The iPhone is the luxury device, not the screen reading software on it, because whatever you may think of Apple, they were willing to provide us a screen reader at no extra charge.  this is a device blind and sighted individuals can go and grab and use together to game with, colaborate on, and socialize through, equally!
turn it around on the sighted users and ask them if they'd want to pay an extra 1000 dollars just to be able to read their luxury devices by purchasing an extra set of glasses or some other such nonsensical bit of hardware or software, and I'm sure that under every occasion you ask that question you'll get a firm and solid, NO!  so why should we!  why are we paying obscure companies for a right sighted individuals have right out of the box, which could easily be encorporated by companies from the start under many circumstances?  Apple has shown they can do it; why not MS? If they want to continue to pay FS on our behalf so we have a screen reader that helps both novice and advanced users they should feel free to do so, or advance narrator to compete with or raise the standard.  This takes the strain away from the government and the disabled individual at the same time, and places the responsibility where it belongs!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-05-19 18:20:44

Remember when I said I wouldn't pay for SMA upgrades unless I had a very good reason? Well, I finally got my license number today and unsurprisingly, I have no SMA upgrades left because the Window-Eyes license wasn't current. When I went to check the price on the website, I found it wasgoing to cost $260 for just two more upgrades. That is ridiculous. I thought it was $200 for the Pro version. Where did the extra $60 come from? wow! I'm not paying that much for just two upgrades. That is madness. Oh well, at least I can enjoy JAWS 18 for now and eagerly wait for the Narrator improvements later this year.

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.

2017-05-19 22:07:08

that's how business works. Find something people need. Find a way to get it to them. Charge for it. If a product is good enough, people can get away with charging as much as they want to some extent. Sometimes high prices are necessary to keep a company going as well. Compared to the rest of the tech market, the VI and blindness market isn't that large. So while I agree that the prices for JAWS and assistive technology in general are a bit insane, it's worth looking at all the potential variables before saying prices are ridiculous and unwarranted. That isn't to say that it's fair to us that we have to purchase such an expensive piece of software to use a Windows machine that a sighted person can use out of the box, but until things change, it is what it is. We can either purchase JAWS if we can afford it/get an agency to purchase it for us, or we can use NVDA.

As far as I know, FS and MS are working closely together to make sure JAWS works as well as possible with Windows 10, and at the same time, MS is improving Narrator quite a bit. If Narrator is improved enough, we may no longer need JAWS or any other screen readers in the future. Note that I say "need." People may still want to purchase JAWS or use NVDA, particularly if they offer enhancements that go beyond what Narrator can do now and in the future. It's all personal preference. If enough people stop using JAWS, FS would most likely discontinue it simply due to the costs associated with maintaining it.

As for Apple products, they cost an arm and a leg as it is last I knew. People can either buy a Windows machine and a screen reader unless they plan on using a free one like NVDA, or they can buy an extremely expensive mac that comes with a screen reader built in.

2017-05-20 17:51:35 (edited by jack 2017-07-06 17:25:43)

Draq, while it is true that Apple device's cost an arm and a leg, you can't directly compare that to a screen reader. !, you are getting what you pay for, if you buy a mac. I can go into why the phones shouldn't be so expensive, but that's a whole other argument altogether. But a mac is a solid, long-lasting computer, and worth the money. And even so, it doesn't matter. Obviously, with mainstream products, everyone pays the same price. Not with screen readers. The way I see it, people need to stop letting computers hold their hand, period. Use nvda. Use Linux. Use the command line/terminal. Buy the training material if you need, or if you're gonna donate more than 30 bucks to nv access at one given time, you might as well buy the book. The money's going entirely to nv access anyway. My point is, use software that really teaches you how to use a computer. Teaches you how to work around issues rather than holding your hand the entire way. With the exception of virtual assistants on smartphones obviously, since those actually have very good use. But I'll just let this article explain why I brought this topic up, of all things. And if training is what someone needs, then fine. Make a training program. An nvda addon. We already have Leasey, and if Jaws wasn't so expensive Leasey just might've been a fair investment. IT serves its purpose for the absolute beginner as well as the more advanced, but not highly advanced, of users. Look at what Iplex did with the voiceover tutorial. Stand-alone app, there when you need it but not foisted on you. Android, Voiceover, and Chrome all have built-in tutorials for their screen readers, that won't bug you after you're situated with the phone. But with those, the good thing is that once you're done with the tutorial, you're on your own. At least on Android that's the case. You're left to find the apps that suit you, and to find the app that fixes a problem should one arise. This, my friends, is actually learning how to use a computer. Ok, rant over.

2017-05-20 18:42:43

Nice article, and thumbs up for a great post. I completely agree that an add-on for NVDA that provided some sort of training module would be a good thing to have. Not everyone learns by listening to a tutorial, many folks are intimidated by documentation, and, even if that is a great help, there's nothing quite like hands on practice to cement the concepts in your head.

The glass is neither half empty nor half full. It's just holding half the amount it can potentially hold.

2017-05-20 19:02:17

That's exactly what I was thinking, Turtlepower. The nvda guide, as great as it is, is nothing short of a nice ebook that you read in your book reader of choice. Just fine for anyone who's comfortable with that and doesn't mind reading a manual-style guide that's not exactly a manual, but is at the same time because it's not human narrated. Guess we'd have to get someone in the community with good audio gear to narrate it for free or for a reasonable rate. Better still, sometimes there is just nothing better than an interactive tutorial. It's a kin to learning the keyboard. Why read a manual on where each key is when there are interactive programs like talking typer which, as a sidenote, thanks to ios availability, is now nothing more than the cost of a trip to Starbucks, as opposed to the windows version's 90 dollar cd distribution with a nice high quality a t and t natural voice so that you get what you're paying for. And might I also point out, since you did mention choosing what you need and don't need, APH dose give you that choice. Don't need the natural voice because you've already purchased a voice or two? No problem, purchase the downloadable distribution. But back on topic. An interactive tutorial for the screen readers is the same concept. Just like the typing programs disallow the universal ctrl+alt+del command to execute, that's precisely what an interactive tutorial would do. Voiceover does this same thing. Puts you in a simulated environment that is just like the real thing, but doesn't actually allow anything to go wrong so you can feel free to have a playatround without causing anything catastrophic, if you will. You could say that Jaws once was guilty of providing nothing interactive, but 1 there's Leasey now, and 2 at least the tutorials were very nicely narrated cassettes and daisy books, and, sometimes, Clark would actually demonstrate the topic rather than just read it. JAWS and I definitely have a love-hate relationship, mostly hating it ,but I genuinely like the efforts they put into training. As much as I am in complete agreement with the article as it not only is direct and to the point, but it also is exactly the problem we're facing in this day and age summed up completely, I will acknowledge that some folks still need training of some sort, which is why I thought an interactive tutorial would be what people need. And then there's Leasey, and the reason I'm glad there's 2 packages, one for novices and one for, I'd say semi-advanced users. How bout another one that does the behind the scenes scripting to make facebook, Spotify and all others accessible, but doesn't leave you with this closed off, noob-friendly *no offense* interface? It's true that you can kind of let Leasey work in the background, but using it requires that interface, and I feel there should be some level of customization of how much the interface holds your hand. Think of programs like q-seek, which assume you know what you're doing with searches, while still making it easy to search wikipedia, manpages for linux, perform calculations, or laugh your ass off by seeing how urban dictionary defines your name. Lol! But that, is exactly what research-it did, only in a much smaller, much more affordable program at 10 bucks. That's what I would've liked to see in Jaws, optional convenience not at the expense of the user should they not need it.

2017-05-20 20:33:12

Actually many Window-Eyes users would claim that about WinEyes, that it is and always was a screen reader for the advanced user who wishes to take command, much as NVDA is today in many ways. In fact this is still reflected in the Window-Eyes to JAWS training material.

Basically, JAWS is well-known for hand-holding. It was ever thus. I don't mind luxury product--in fact I'll even grant that such refinement and a commitment to a plush and convenient experience is a worthwhile value add. But there's always been a contingent of users who care enough to have that extra control and lack of hand-holding, and really NVDA is now the only option for that. NVDA, of course, was created for and by blind people who have used other products in the past, and is a respectable alternative.

Just myself, as usual.

2017-05-20 21:03:36

I think another part of the problem is when people look at something and think, "I think this could or should be easier." They then proceed to write software that holds the user's hand, and then everyone forgets how everything works without said software.

Research It in JAWS is a prime example of this. I do love the feature myself, but I also know how to look things up without it. If someone is going to be taught to use Research It first, they may not learn how to do the same task without the feature. Using the feature is just faster, so naturally people are going to flock to it for laziness/productivity reasons.

Another good example in my opinion is HTML editors. They hold your hand throughout the creation of a website. The person using the software doesn't need to know a thing about HTML. However, if something goes wrong, and things will eventually go wrong, they won't know what to do because they can't read the HTML of their pages. But when you're working on a rather large site and have a deadline to meet, would you really want to have to type it all out by hand? I think not.

So, I say people should learn both ways. Teach them the concepts of doing things on their own first, then teach them about the software that can do it for them afterward.

2017-05-24 15:36:57 (edited by Phil 2017-05-24 15:41:03)

Chris Hofstader
just posted a blog about this issue.
http://chrishofstader.com/nvda-now-more-than-ever/
NVDA: Now More Than Ever!

May 23, 2017 by
Chris Hofstader
3 Comments

Epigram

“All the power is in the hands,
Of the people rich enough to buy it,
While we walk the streets,
Too chicken to even try it,” The Clash.

Introduction

Regular readers of this blog and of
BlindConfidential
(its predecessor) already know that when it comes to Windows screen readers, I am an enthusiastic supporter of
NVDA
and
NVAccess .
Recent events in the news of the blind world have moved NVDA from being an excellent screen reader used by more than 20% of the blind people who run Windows
into the single most important piece of technology used by our community.

This article will explore the
VFO
acquisition of
The Paciello Group
(TPG) as well as its decision to end the life of its
Window-Eyes
product. It will also explain why Free, Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) is the only way we as blind people can control our own destinies, ensure our
privacy and be certain that we have a screen reader that will not disappear overnight.

If you’re unfamiliar with the word “FLOSS” (spelled in all caps), it stands for Free Libre Open Source Software. When
Richard Stallman
started this movement he used the term “free software” which some people find confusing as “free” in the English language can mean either “at no cost to
the consumer” as in “free beer” or it could mean “at liberty” as in “Lincoln freed the slaves.” Others started calling this type of software “open source”
but that ignores the other aspects of the philosophy so another set of people started using the word “libre” instead of “free” or “open source.” I started
using FLOSS as it’s a compromise position and generates fewer questions about what I mean. If you’re interested in learning more about the philosophy behind
this movement, I recommend taking a look at the “
Free Software Foundation
web site as that’s where it all began.

Privacy

One of the best kept secrets in the blindness world and an issue people have pressured me to not report for many years now is that a screen reader is a
highly effective piece of spyware. In brief, a screen reader monitors all activities on a computer and reports the information back to the user in speech
and/or braille. Any software engineer with access to the source code can tweak it a little and also report everything the user does on their computer back
to the company that made the screen reader or to any other data gathering system of their choice. Thus, the VFO people can add a spyware function to JAWS,
MAGic or ZoomText and there’s no way a user can know if their information, usage habits or anything else they do with a VFO product is being collected
by them and potentially sold or shared with others. In the era of data mining, do you trust
Vector Capital,
the company who owns the notorious MP3 patent trolls to not also take unethical actions against users of the other products made by companies in their
portfolio?

NVDA is free, libre open source software (FLOSS) and anyone with the skills required to read and evaluate the source code can independently verify that
the NVDA screen reader is not also spying on them. Admittedly, few people have these skills but any number of blindness agencies or a collection thereof
can grab the NVDA source code from GitHub, pay security specialists to review the code and independently verify that it is not doing anything malicious,
a freedom we do not have with the VFO products under the proprietary, closed source model under which they sell
JAWS,
ZoomText
and
MAGic.
The verified version of NVDA can be digitally signed and have a checksum one can test to further ensure that they are running code certified to be safe.

Is it illegal to turn JAWS into a piece of spyware? The answer is a loud “No!” Google and Amazon are notorious data miners and their privacy policy permits
them to gather information about their users, including which apps they use and, in the case of blind users, if they run a screen reader or not. In essence,
this means that a company or organization can buy information about screen readers and know that you’re blind before you even apply for a job and could
lead to wholesale discrimination as we blind people are believed (erroneously) to be more expensive to employ than are our sighted peers.

Nobody can stop VFO from spying on its users; our entire community can work with NVAccess to ensure that our private information is being kept private.

Two Guys In A Garage?

Recently, I was told by more than one person who had a private meeting with VFO salespeople at
CSUN 2017
that the guys trying to sell JAWS are telling those who buy enterprise site licenses that “NVDA is just two guys working in a garage, if they’re hit by
a bus, the whole thing disappears.” This is a bald faced lie, NVDA is more than the amazing Mick Curren and Jamie Teh, it’s an entire community made up
of hundreds of people who contribute to its source code, write plug-ins like
NVDA Remote Access
and
DictationBridge,
write documentation, help with testing, create tutorials and participate in making it the only Windows screen reader that has witnessed marketshare growth
over each of the past six years. If something bizarre and tragic happens to Mick and Jamie, the rest of the community can pick it up where they left off.

Now, contrast the value of a community of hundreds to the half dozen or so people currently writing JAWS code at VFO and we can only conclude that JAWS
is in a far more fragile state than is the very healthy community of NVDA developers.

Window-Eyes Disappears

Now, let’s explore the abject hypocrisy in what the VFO salespeople are saying behind closed doors at CSUN. Last week, they announced that their Window-Eyes
product had been discontinued (something I predicted in my
annual end of year article
last December). Window-Eyes users with a valid software maintenance agreement (SMA) can get a gratis upgrade to JAWS; those without such either need to
buy JAWS,
a Dolphin product
or, as most to whom I’ve spoken seem to be doing switch to NVDA.

While the Window-Eyes marketshare was in single digits, many of its users cannot afford to buy the upgrade and have no choice but to use NVDA, something
I would recommend but the transition will not be easy for the less technically minded sorts.. More insidious, though, is that Window-Eyes, NVDA and JAWS
all have different user interfaces and the people now using Window-Eyes, their employers, educational institutions and so on need to pick up the tab in
terms of time and money to learn a new screen reader. Training is expensive both in time and in terms of dollars, Euros, rupees, pounds sterling, yen or
the currency of your choice.

If, like NVDA, Window-Eyes was a FLOSS package, the community could have collectively taken over its management and development and its users would have
their screen reader of choice into the future.

We have the FLOSS model NVDA where its future is ensured by the hundreds of people contributing to it that will be available even if its originators choose
to do something different with their lives. We have the proprietary model Window-Eyes over which the community has no control. VFO made a decision, Window-Eyes
users got screwed and there’s nothing we can do to change this.

A FLOSS package can last forever; users of a proprietary solution are subject to the whims of VFO or Dolphin management. NVDA users needn’t fear their favorite
screen reader will go away overnight; VFO has demonstrated that they will force users to go through a retraining process, spend more money to use a different
screen reader and allow JAWS to deteriorate as they see fit. You are free to make your own choices, I highly recommend taking the FLOSS route and using,
contributing in some way and promoting NVDA to the best of your abilities. We simply cannot trust VFO with our future.

NVDACon

As far as I can tell, the annual NVDACon online conference is the only forum in which the community can interact directly with the authors of their favorite
screen reader. Try to contact Glen Gordon (the person at the top of JAWS at VFO) and see if you get a response to a technical question.

NVDACon started when community member and DictationBridge contributor Joseph Lee saw the need for such an event and took it upon himself to coordinate an
international meeting of NVDA developers, users, documentation specialists and anyone else who had an interest in attending. It is now run by our friend
and another DictationBridge contributor, Derek Reamer. This year it had its biggest attendance so far and we expect to see it grow into the future.

Standards Rule

The Paciello Group (TPG) is not the largest of the accessibility contract shops (
Deque Systems
has more people and the company formerly known as
SSB-BART
just got a $40 million investment). TPG is, however, by far the most prestigious brand name in the field. Mike Paciello, its founder, has been one of the
most important and influential people in the world of accessibility standards. Other TPG people like Steve Faulkner, Karl Groves, Billy Gregory, etc. participate
in writing and promoting standards like
WCAG 2.0,
Aria
and other generally accepted practices for ensuring the accessibility of technology, web sites, documents and all of the other things we blind and otherwise
disabled people need to fully participate in modern society.

It’s Accessible If It Works With JAWS

One of the big lies I told as a Freedom Scientific executive that I still hear whispered around the VFO crowd is that JAWS is a benchmark for accessibility
testing. This could not be further from the truth, JAWS is (of the Windows screen readers I know of) the least standards compliant. Our rationale for telling
this lie was that JAWS had an overwhelming lead in the marketshare battles and, therefore, testing against JAWS meant ensuring that most screen reader
users would find a web site or application to be accessible. When I was telling that lie, NVDA didn’t exist and now it’s the most standards compliant of
the Windows screen readers and may be the most compliant screen reader on any platform.

I will also add that testing one’s technology with NVDA is much simpler than with JAWS. One only needs to download the NVDA image from the NVAccess web
site, run its installation routine and jump right in. There are no hassles with license servers, copy protection or other barriers to an efficient testing
experience. And, like the people from TPG, the NVAccess guys participate in a lot of the discussions surrounding the writing of the standards, something
VFO employees are only rarely seen doing.

It’s Not Just About Vision Disabilities

If a company elects to test their technology against JAWS as the benchmark, they will find that entirely standards compliant web sites and applications
will not work properly. If they then change their web sites or applications to work nicely with JAWS, they will need to violate the standards. If they
do so, their technology will indeed work well with JAWS but it will not with any other AT.

While I am blind and I write about and work on projects related to vision impairments, I also understand that a lot of people with other disabilities need
access to web sites and applications. If the technology is actually accessible it is compliant with the standards and should work properly with any AT
required for all disabilities. Coding to ensure access to JAWS may mean that Stephen Hawking cannot use your technology, a message I used to start
my talk at the LibrePlanet free software conference
in March.

Will VFO force the universal design based TPG people away from standards and onto the “if it works with JAWS it’s accessible” bandwagon or will they allow
them to continue working using generally accepted practices and not on JAWS inability to implement such correctly? Exploring this a little further, it’s
in VFO’s best interest to destroy the standards based model because web sites and applications coded specifically to work with JAWS, will not work properly
with NVDA or Dolphin products, a clear market advantage for JAWS. Meanwhile, making things compatible with JAWS will likely break all of the AT used by
people with other disabilities. A JAWS first testing strategy should be avoided by everyone as it’s the outlier, not the standard.

TPG As An Educator

Historically, a number of TPG employees have spent a lot of time working on podcasts, writing blogs and sending out useful accessibility tips on social
media. Steve Faulkner and Leonie Watson have terrific and very educational Twitter personalities and many of us in the accessibility business find our
way to important information via the links they post on social media.

Historically, the VFO leadership has been notorious for silencing its employees from saying anything whatsoever about accessibility that hasn’t been pre-approved
by VFO, whether in their spare time using their personal gear or while at work using VFO PCs. VFO now wants the TPG employees to sign the same highly restrictive
non-disclosure, non-compete and non-disparagement agreements that prevent its other employees from engaging with the rest of the community.

As much of what the TPG people write on social media, in their blogs and discuss on their podcasts is about standards and we know standards are not in the
best interest of JAWS, will our community lose these people as the valued assets they are today? Just as an example, listen to an episode of “
The Viking and The Lumberjack
” and then listen to one of Jonathan Mosen’s nearly content free
FSCast
episodes and you will understand that V&L promotes standards; FSCast promotes VFO.

The VFO Patent Portfolio

Another hazard created by the company formerly known as Freedom Scientific (FS) are the many patents they have related to access technologies. When I was
still working there, Lee Hamilton (then CEO) readily admitted to we executives that our patent strategy had little to nothing to do with the novelty of
something we “invented” but, rather, was to “drop boulders in the roadmap of our competitors.” Shamefully, I participated in this deceit and authored many
early drafts of what would become actual patents. Hamilton and the FS lawyers then started filing patent suits against
GW Micro,
KESI
and perhaps other access technology companies. Almost every patent prosecuted by FS was found to be invalid but only after those FS had sued had spent
a tremendous amount of time and money defending themselves. This disruption in the competitor’s business model did nothing but stifle competition and help
JAWS reach its monopoly level marketshare. It wasn’t until NVDA came along that JAWS had any real challenger.

What If VFO Sues NVAccess Over Patent Infringement?

Because NVDA is a FLOSS package, NVAccess qualifies as a member of the
Software Freedom Law Center
(SFLC) based at Columbia University in New York. If history serves as a predictor of the future, it is very likely that the patent VFO might use to attack
NVDA would be found invalid if challenged. SFLC knows how to fight this kind of suit and, in the event they are needed, they will provide pro bono representation
to NVAccess and any other developer of FLOSS access technology attacked by a patent troll like VFO.

All Of The Power?

Looping back to the epigram that I’ve heard
Joe Strummer
sing a million times both live and in recordings, we need to ask ourselves if, indeed, VFO with a monopoly position in proprietary Windows screen readers
and magnifiers actually has all of the power. While I like opening this article with that quote, I actually believe that we, the community of blind technology
users and our friends, can seize the day and take back control of our own destinies. The most obvious first step is doing whatever you can to help NVAccess
improve and promote NVDA.

What Can You Do To Help?

Every screen reader user can help NVDA in their own way. A number of things you and I can do to advance NVDA and our freedoms include:

list of 10 items
• If you have programming skills, you can do something to improve NVDA itself. You could help the core team fix bugs and add features, you can write a new
plug-in providing more functionality to NVDA users and participate in various other ways as well.
• If you have good writing skills, you can help create documentation and training materials for NVDA.
• If you are multi-lingual, you can help translate NVDA documentation and training materials into languages other than English.
• If you use NVDA and find a bug, you can report it through their tracking system to ensure the programmers know about the defect so they can then find
a remedy.
• If you have a social media account, you can help promote NVDA with tweets, FaceBook posts and such.
• Instead of paying for a JAWS SMA, you can send the money to NVAccess to help the people working on the software.
• If you’re a solid NVDA user, you can help other users with tips and tricks and other helpful information on mailing lists and the like.
• If you have a blog, you can write about why you like NVDA and relatively high profile people like me will help you promote your stories on social media.
• If you’re a TPG person and haven’t signed the restrictive covenants with VFO yet, continue to refuse to do so. You’re all capable of finding another job
in a real hurry. so VFO needs you more than you need them.
• I ask that you please promote this article on social media or on your blog or podcast.
list end

An Endowment For FLOSS Access Technology

When I heard that the VFO salespeople were trying to tell the world that NVDA could disappear overnight and then demonstrated their own willingness to kill
a product without warning, I started noodling around with an idea. When I was doing an on stage interview at
San Francisco Lighthouse Labs
meeting earlier this month with Erin Lauridsen, their new and outstanding director of access technology, my friend and one of the sharpest minds this community
has ever known, Josh Miele asked a question about how we could ensure the future of FLOSS packages in the disability community. While NVDA has a terrific
and thriving community supporting it, other less well known packages do disappear when the people maintaining such move on to something else. So, I decided
to work on a long term strategy for ensuring the futures of important FLOSS access technology projects.

I’ve been mulling over a number of ideas to allow this to happen while also permitting the package maintainers the freedom to move onto new projects when
they want to. The best idea I’ve had so far is to establish an endowment to finance maintenance of existing and creation of new FLOSS packages related
to accessibility for all people with disabilities. I have set a goal for myself to raise $5 million in the coming year to establish this endowment. If
you work for a disability related organization with a bunch of money in the bank and you think this is a good idea, please write to me via the
contact form
on this site and we can discuss how your organization can join this important movement. I’ve already done a number of meetings with big agencies discussing
this notion and I’m feeling hopeful that we’ll make our goal.

This community has made
tdsr
($5000),
NVDA Remote Access
($10,000) and
DictationBridge
($20,000) for less money than VFO would spend on the salaries of the people in the meetings just to decide if these were good ideas or not. We can, therefore,
take less money from the community for each project and, for the same number of dollars, do much more work than can VFO. With an endowment, we can ensure
the future of these packages and many more already available as well as develop new and exciting features for them and start new projects too. The economics
are pointing to the FLOSS model and away from VFO.

Conclusions

NVDA is the only screen reader we can trust to protect our privacy, to survive a decision by its founders to move onto other things in their lives and to
be compatible with standards. There are a few reasons to continue using JAWS (some job sites who have custom JAWS scripts for in house software for instance)
but there is no reason whatsoever to either avoid NVDA for your enterprise, your personal computing, at an educational institution or in virtually any
other situation. I urge all of you to stop buying JAWS SMAs and put the money to learning and/or supporting NVDA as it is the only one that will protect
your freedoms moving forward.

We can accept the VFO domination of the technology we need or we can throw as many virtual bricks at their roadmap as possible. We can topple the proprietary
screen reader model if we’re willing to work together to the common goal of controlling our own destiny, securing our own privacy and collectively taking
responsibility for our own future. I’m not saying this will be easy but I believe it is possible and that it is the road we need to pave for ourselves.

2017-05-24 19:45:25 (edited by Chris 2017-05-24 19:46:32)

I completely agree with the linked article. The days of commercial proprietary screen readers are numbered. Did someone from VFO really say "two guys in a garage"? wow!

Grab my Adventure at C: stages Right here.