2015-07-12 23:05:09 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2015-07-12 23:05:47)

Just a quick straw poll!

What I'd like to ask about is the idea of digital storefronts (iTunes, Google play, steam, gog.com, itch.io etc) allowing a tickbox for developers to tick to say whether or not a game is blind accessible.

You can see something similar already in existence on Steam, for captions. If you look at the details of a game it tells you wether or not it has captions, and when browsing lists of games you can filter the list to show you only games that have captions.

Accuracy is not guaranteed as it's something that the developers tick for themselves rather than something the storefronts checks/tests,  but for the steam  information on captions it doesn't seem to be a problem, the developers enter it fairly accurately.

So what do you think? If that functionality was available for blood accessibility, would you use it? Is it something that you would like to see happen?

2015-07-13 00:33:31

Uh... that's a hard one, because that all depends on your definition of accessible, which, especially among sighted developers will differ. A fighting game is accessible with a very loose sense of the word, though most would say playable not accessible. And most games these days don't have accessibility features, they just happen to be playable... which is different. So I don't think a box like that would mean a lot, until the accessible game market gets bigger and there's some sort of standard.

Discord: clemchowder633

2015-07-13 00:45:31 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2015-07-13 01:16:02)

One of the storefronts has just added an option for develoeprs to tick, their definition of blind acessible is "can play without any visuals".

How about something more specific, such as "screenreader accessible", would that be more useful?

2015-07-13 01:24:09

Yes, but then again each developer's definition of playable without visuals will be different... some developers will not consider Street Fighter a game that is playable without visuals. But it is. And it's not screen reader accessible, but it's still very much a game we can navigate fully. I'm not writing this to contradict, I'm just not sure about the plausability of something like this. Which storefront just put up that option? I guess screen reader accessible would be the optimal definition... but there again, very few games on the storefronts you mentioned other than Google Play and Itunes are likely to have games that are actually screen reader accessible, and that doesn't necessarily include all the games we can play if you want to include the ones on the storefront which are not screen reader accessible but that blind people can still play to a great extent.

Discord: clemchowder633

2015-07-13 01:34:10 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2015-07-13 01:34:32)

Itch.io, although it's not publicly available yet, it's just there for developers to start tagging. They'll make it publicly browseable once enough games have been tagged.

The accessibility tags they have introduced (covering various different impairments) are:

colorblind: Color-blind friendly (only safe colors used, or colorblind mode available)
subtitles: When voice acting is used, subtitles are available
configurable_controls: Game has configurable/remappable controls
highcontrast: Interface has a high contrast
tutorial: Contains an interactive tutorial
one_button: Can play by pressing only one button
blind: Blind friendly (can play without any visuals)

They have also introduced other types of tags, for example what input device is required, or how long it takes to play the game.

Because it is at a very early stage now is the perfect time to get it done well though, before too many people start using it. I'd hope it's functionality that other storefronts will copy, so if itch's approach can be done well it should hopefully have wider reach too.

2015-07-13 01:40:06

Yeah... that's true. My only problem still remains that the definition of blind-friendly is completely subjective. A game might be tagged when it really isn't, but more likely a game that is blind friendly may not be tagged because the developer doesn't assume it to be.

Discord: clemchowder633

2015-07-13 01:46:59

Indeed, although there's nothing stopping someone contacting a developer to let them know that their game is blind accessible and should be tagged.

Also as you say some games that show up will be tagged incorrectly, but that aside it should still be a useful way to find new games, compared to at the moment where the only possible way is to either hear about it from someone else, or to just download via trial and error.

The key really is what exactly the tag should be. Perhaps two - "screenreader compatible (tested with NVDA, voicever etc)", and "audiogame (playable by sound alone)"?

2015-07-13 07:01:07

Wouldn't be tagged as an audiogame... playable by the blind and screen reader compatible are more likely ones, but still leaves the worst one to wide interpretation. hahaha.

Discord: clemchowder633

2015-07-13 09:53:53

@ianhamilton_
I am sorry to say that I agree with Assault on this one.  I think such tags, while useful as an outcome, are far too subjective to be of any help.  For instance, I am aware of people who would be at a loss when I say I play Killer Instinct and while I have issues with certain elements of the mechanics (due to not really having enough practice with people willing to teach me) I would say the game is at least playable if not accessible.

The two terms are interchangable in some instances, depending on what the player as an individual defines.  So while I think, in principal, developers should be allowed to tag their games with accessibility-related info, until the developers start bringing  in totally blind individuals from all over the world to verify the tags before release during live testing sessions (as is common with MKX and previous fighting games), I don't think it's worth the effort.  As you would probably agree this endeavour would be costly and a lot of developers wouldn't agree to it, therefore that version of the idea itself would probably fall flat.

Whilst I appreciate the suggestion, I believe it will be several years before developers begin to truely accept that blind people can enjoy the vast majority of games with a relatively limited amount of tweaking and a good amount of testing.  Once that understanding becomes full-scale and public, then we can start thinking about having an industry-wide accessibility tagging system.  Since a large number of sighted individuals are in a state of relative awe and disbelief when blind people tell them we can play videogames (pc or otherwise) without help, this is the first barrier that needs to be conquered, subjectively speaking.

I did think that perhaps games like Skullgirls, where developers have worked with blind people to make sure the games are as good as they can be, should have to go through an evaluation process of some kind.  Actually, in saying that, how about turning the system on it's head and having user submittable tags, in the same style as before.  So if a person finds a game to be accessible, they can tag it as such and are required to leave a comment explaining their experience in terms of playability etc.  This way a broader scope of individuals can submit their thoughts on the game to allow others to judge if a game is right for them.

This latter iteration of the idea, of course, would need a fair amount of work, but keep in mind it's just a theory and I don't doubt that there are a large number of holes contained within it.

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of this forum, it's an interesting topic.

Regards,
Sightless Kombat.
***If you wish to refer to me in @replies, use Sightless***

2015-07-13 10:52:24 (edited by ianhamilton_ 2015-07-13 10:53:19)

User submittable tags already exist on Steam, but not one single person has, for example, tagged skullgirls as being blind accessible.

I 100% get that any developer submitted tags would not result in a complete list, as it would not show games that are accidentally accessible. Other tags, such as remappable controls our subtitles, don't have the same issue at all.

But would it not still be a useful way to discover new content to be able to click on a blind-accessible tag and see a list of some games that the developers believe are accessible, even though it wouldn't cover everything?

2015-07-13 19:49:18

It might but again, some developers might think games are accessible when they're not (some people treat "blind" as being able to see certain things instead of total lack of vision etc).  I wonder how you tag a steam game?  Maybe some skullgirls players from this forum should get on tagging it as completely playable by individuals with no vision...

Regards,
Sightless Kombat.
***If you wish to refer to me in @replies, use Sightless***

2015-07-13 21:49:15

There's also subjectivity on what's good enough. Some people think that copying to clipboard is enough for supporting screen readers, some would demand support through the proper means and not limited to any screen reader in particular. Also there's the issue of supporting deafblind players (for whom audio-only solutions don't work) and partially deaf (for whom stereo-only solutions don't work).

And yeah, "blind" is vague. I've got somebody who's legally blind say that Sol with default settings is accessible, which shows the threshold for being considered blind is quite low.

2015-07-13 23:29:36

General concensus is to get rid of the tagging because it is of no practical use?

Not even a specific tag to say that it has been tested with screenreaders?

2015-07-13 23:46:31

Hi.
my issues are the stores themselves ian.
ich.io is fully accessable.
google play is semi accessable though to get all their music you buy for pc at least there are loads of web play download restrictions and the only other way to get things is their usable music manager.
As for itunes the itunes client while usable is not really as accessable as I'd like though their web store via brouser is accessable.
Gog.com I have no idea if its accessable or not but if its just a website then it may be.
Steam is not accessable you need a capcha to signup anyway and the client is not really blind user friendly.
asura while the site was accessable the software was some windowed html thing which while semi accessable with supernova 12 only went so far.
Out of all those stores ich.io was the most and the best way for me if I was a dev would to include a paypal button on my site and be done with it.
ich.io may be the acception its a website and supports paypal and other formats but its the only store I have found good.
Now access wize I don't have time to brouse a store to find something which is or may be accessable.
I found it out the hard way that some stuff even visual gamebooks are not accessable.
There are some devs with contacts and some without those.
The fact is I don't want to spend 30 bucks on something only to find its not accessable and more over the dev is not contactable.
On the other hand I have just spent 40 bucks on the physical paypal assisted walkerman by scalemail.
The dev was contactable in fact I got him to make his games accessable.
Sadly though if something has 1, custom images, buttons, and graphics and is allready built its unlikely devs will actually bother trying to make it work.
If its easy like turning something off and on or updating a library they will do it.
Or if you ask them directly and explain they may try to do that.
However you do rely on the dev themselves to want to conttinue.
I have had people in the past that just don't do anything.
Ofcause it helps when the tools used by that dev are built for access and all you need is to turn it on or something.
Better still if the tools are free or opensource and themselves come from someone that made them with access in mind.
Ofcause I havn't needed to venture to any store as such or at least not for much.
Google play I went for some music because of paypal access and I'd do it again for that access.
Ich.io well I'd do it again.
asura I never got the client to work so unless I can buy without it I won't be doing anything even though I am registered.
Steam can f**ck off as far as I care.
If they won't improve their client no matter if their games are accessable I won't buy from them.
I am so happy neilsbauergames didn't go fully steam because their games are good.

2015-12-04 04:46:19

I though i'd just let everyone know itch.io recently put up a community forum a few days ago, complete with a section for suggestions and improvements for the site. So if anyone happens to have any suggestions or want to get more involved, now might be a good time.

-BrushTone v1.3.3: Accessible Paint Tool
-AudiMesh3D v1.0.0: Accessible 3D Model Viewer

2015-12-04 16:25:23

I have to agree with Assault, until there is a standard by which a game's accessibility can be measured, accessibility is subjective enough that with a standard, it would be more confusing than useful.

What Steam is doing with caption tags is a step in the right direction, but I notice that Steam themselves aren't taking that step by making their client more accessible, so the caption tag is of little value.

2015-12-07 09:21:19

The caption tag is of value, as obviously people who require captions generally don't need to use screenreaders. It was brought about as the result of a change.org campaign by a deaf gamer.

2017-02-28 22:30:44

How about crowd sourced verification - so a developer says that a game is accessible, and gamers are then free to disagree with that.. if enough gamers flag it as incorrect, the listing is removed?

2017-03-01 02:24:04

The issue with offfering people the ability to flag...anything really, is misuse. Look at Youtube for an example and the issue of false flagging there. Don't like somebody? Get all your subscribers to flag that person's stuff.

It happens, and it will happen again with how people are if they don't like something.

That's not to say that it isn't a nice idea, but I do think there needs to be a certain standard for blind gamers, deaf gamers, physically handicapped gamers and so forth, not just a single standard.

I'll have to go look it up but I swear I read somewhere  that the US laws were changing in that regard.

Warning: Grumpy post above
Also on Linux natively

Jace's EA PGA Tour guide for blind golfers

2017-03-02 00:07:29

Not quite, there is a pending law that games currently have an exemption from, but that only applies to in-game communication, rather than gameplay.

There are ways around misuse, for example in the old xbox arcade system when a game was uploaded there was an inner circle of a few hundred gamers whose job it was to check out all of the claims that were made about that game's features.

If a game received enough flags, it didn't automatically remove the features from the listing, it flagged it up as needing review by xbox staff.

If there were any serial musers, they were kicked out of the circle of reviewers. Which they wouldn't want, as there was a motivation to be a reviewer - the reviewers received all of the games they reviewed for free.

2017-03-10 11:26:52

Blood accessibility heh

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