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AudioGames.net Forum → New releases room → new game online! Desafio Mortal
Been reading this topic since day 1, and all I can say is... how many people posting in this group are over the age of 20? I'm hoping very few... because the attitude I've seen from most people suggests a level of maturity that I would associate with people going through puberty.. and as some said, spoiled children. Please give posts 426 and 427 a read... they sum up pretty much everything I would've written here if it hadn't been done so already!
+2
I'm going to agree with Jayde and disagree with Draco on these last handful of posts.
As Draco pointed out, this is a very small community, but from that I draw the opposite conclusion. As a small community you imply that fighting against the use of stolen code is harming the developers... and of course we need as many of them as we can get. I would personally go in the other direction and say that stolen code is itself the harm, and ignoring it because we are personally benefiting from whatever was made from it, will do far more harm in the long run.
To me, if this community decides they are willing to forgive someone for stealing code so long as they "bribe" them with a fun game, is one of the worst demonstrations of disrespect the community could show. What it means is that you only care about the developer if they are handing you some goodies, and even if someone is harming them you would rather abandon them and jump over to get some hand-outs from the new guy. It's your beloved family dog willing to follow the thief who just busted up your house and robbed you, because that thief handed it a treat in the process. Betrayal is a good word that comes to mind.
The other thing it does it paint the community as an uncivilized and amoral lot. I'm not talking about the vigilante justice or the harsh comments made here on this thread, I am talking about the number of people who honestly don't care about theft as long as they are benefiting from it. I hope none of this group handles themselves in this way outside of the internet. I've known people who were okay about crimes taking place, so long as they were handed a bribe for their silence, and I have no respect for them at all. The right thing to do, needs to be upheld on principle. We have people who are willing to support wrong-doing in exchange for a bribe, when we should have people willing to stand against wrong-doing even if it means they'll suffer for it. It's all very backwards and sadly makes me see the community a little differently than I did before this thread.
It is disappointing when you get a good look at someone's character, and it isn't as bright as you once thought it was.
+4
Well...yes and no Aprone. I disagree with you for one key reason.
If somebody is dedicated or cruel enough, they could start a witch hunt regardless of the code used and find any reason to start drama, especially if (for instance) they come across a similar system in a game to something they have and start kicking off it's a stolen system.
It's...frankly pathetic how it was handled, it's completely and utterly unneeded and it's not the stolen code that hurts the community in the long run, it's the drama that comes from it that hurts the community in the long run.
GOing out on a limb, I feel that the entire audiogame community is still finding its feet and needs to figure out what it wants to do with itself, does it merely want to in part ape and emulate the mainstream games industry with certain games, or build its own killer apps? Does it want to make its own standalone, fun games that stand on their own as amazing games regardless of what genre they are. The audiogame genre reminds me of the early videogame genre circa late 70s/early 80s, as far as developers rushing to throw out quick and simple games.
One day I want a game the whole audiogame genre can be proud of that isn't based on aping a popular mainstream game, that stands alone as a true original game that everybody can point to and say THIS is a true poineer of audiogaming.
Or. Putting it in a shorter sentence:
Audiogaming apes videogames which is a a bad thing
Well it's true that the drama makes just about everything worse, but I'm still going to stick to my previous post. If we are wondering how all of this affects audio game developers (what you seemed to be talking about in post 445), then I believe i can speak from experience As one of this community's game developers.
Accusations made against this game were not offending to me, as an audio game developer. Witch hunts could happen at any time I suppose, but it's pretty easy and would probably always be easy to see them for what they are and ignore them. The only time I was truly offended and disappointed as an audio game developer, was when people expressed their view that they didn't care even if the game was using stolen code, and all they cared about was playing the fun new game. That was a huge slap in the face, and I can absolutely imagine new game devs seeing that disrespect as a reason to never work on anything ever again for this community.
If I'm working to create games for this community, and they openly say they don't give 2 s*its if someone rips me off, then why should I keep trying to contribute? This is the real message this thread has sent to the game devs, not the rest of the drama.
Even in your post 445 you seem to be putting down the game developers of this community. You make light of code theft and act as though the devs are spoiled children blowing the whole situation out of proportion.
If you are worried about how any of this drama affects the game developers, then the opinions of the game developers will point out the true problem. You may be a game developer yourself (that I'm not aware of), and if that is the case then I suppose your opinion is just as valid as mine on this issue. If you are not a game developer, then you need to take a closer look at your own comments and attitude. You clearly want greater game variety, and what not, and you seem willing to put your own wants above the people who have been toiling away to bring everyone the games we Do have.
+1
Wow Aprone post 452 was perfect! People really need to read it, and understand What this is about.
Ok, so, am I to assume that game is no longer on like? I'm unable to connect. Is this from stolen code? Really wanted to try it.
A point was made earlier about people finding their feet, borrowing code and ideas from other games in order to make their own better.
Okay. Often, artists, be they visual, audio or written, imitate someone when they start. They find their own style and then learn to stop imitating. So to some extent I can understand the nature of using someone else's work to bolster your own.
BUT...
If you're going to do this, you absolutely, categorically must ask permission first. This is the difference between borrowed code and stolen code. If the creator of the code says it's okay, then you're golden. Okay, you didn't do a hundred percent of the work, but you have a leg up on the people who have done nothing, and you've created a game, and you'll probably get more and more original as time goes by. The reason this game is an issue is because it looks either as if the permission obtained was false, or as if the devs were lying about whatever permission they had. And let's remember also that they did say they made their game from scratch, which we can fairly safely assume isn't true anymore. On these grounds alone, I will no longer consider playing this game or supporting this developer. This is ten kinds of shady and completely unethical.
I will not attack the game, attack the developer or otherwise get in their way in any other fashion. I simply won't play the game and won't go out of my way to recommend it to others, until such time that I can be sure of its ethicality. This community is small, and bad ethics are a really excellent way to make legitimate developers, both the pre-existing kind and the hopefuls like myself, run far, far away.
In summary: borrowing code, with permission, is something people do all the time, in the mainstream world and in this world. Borrowing code is arguably quite helpful. But there are so, so many better ways to have made a game with Ultra Power source code outside of stealing it. And contacting Mason personally, as he's the owner of the code, was the first and most important step for virtually all of them. It looks as if this wasn't done.
Now, another point was made about audio games emulating video games.
Hey, there's a reason video gaming is a billion-dollar industry. It works. Shooters, RPGs, sports games, puzzle games, adventure games, co-op style party games...they all have their niche. I'm not going to say there are no good ideas left, but these ideas do work. You say that aping the mainstream is bad? I disagree heartily. The mainstream is hugely successful, but copying the genres and putting a blind spin on them, so to speak, is an excellent idea. Look at A Hero's Call just as one example. There are hundreds of western RPGs from which this game loosely borrows. Nothing wrong with that. Ditto Entombed. Ditto Super Liam. Ditto all kinds of games that were or are popular.
What we want to do is emulate the genre without totally ripping it off. I'd be a fool to create a game called Time Trigger with characters named Cronus, Marla, Robbo, Lucille, Aela, Frogger and magnus, where the earth was being threatened by an enormous beast called Lavis. That would be a blatant rip-off. But if I were, say, to make an RPG with seven characters, where your main goal was to collect seven elementals? That, by itself, is nowhere near the same kind of rip-off, because within that framework I'd be sure to make my game its own original thing. Characters would be unique and would have depth. The world would be fleshed out. Magic and skills would be unique and interesting. Bosses would challenge you and make you think. So any vague resemblance to some other game you might have played, because you're in an RPG and on a quest with your friends, quickly pales next to everything else.
We'd be fools to turn our back entirely on the mainstream.
+4
But that's often a hard line to discern between borrowed or 'stolen' code.
I've dealt with game mods before where people have permission but simply forget to add a credit in a readme file, or forget to say they got permission for X or Y.
Conversely, I know of communties (well one genre in particular) where ripped and stolen content is the norm. So, it goes both ways honestly.
Also, since you brought up books I'd like to point out that you can't compare stolen code to themes in a book. If two authors write a fantasy novel set in Aincient Greece, is the latter book using 'stolen content' from the first book? No. Because you cannot compare artists, authors, coders, and so forth. Each is different. I say this as a writer myself.
You can't compare stolen code to themes in a book, but what you do compare it to is opening 2 separate books and literally 15 pages are identical except for a word here and there. Stolen code is not about game Themes at all, stolen code is about code.
I bet the community where ripped and stolen content is normal, doesn't have the original authors as community members. I've also seen groups that are stabbing people in the back for their own benefit/enjoyment, but you don't do that to your own people and expect everything to be fine.
Draco, I think the difference between "borrowed" and stolen code would be permission from the developer. Trying to know whether a game is using code from another game comes down to someone pointing out the evidence. That is what happened here in this thread.
+3
MODERATION
I apologize that this has taken so long, but there is finally a decision about Desafio Mortal and the question of stolen code.
The moderator team has been watching this topic unfold for quite some time. Evidence has been collected and debated from multiple angles, often requiring a large amount of time. While many people here have chosen their sides based on odd bits of evidence, the moderator team has had access to considerably more information than almost everyone here. With that being said, I am not sharing an opinion here, I am sharing a determination based on overwhelming evidence.
The developers of Desafio Mortal did in fact use Mason's stolen code. From the very beginning they have lied about using it. It appears they did not know about this forum's rule against using it, and because the stickied thread covering this rule somehow got itself moved, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The servers went offline because the developers decided it would be best to tear out all of the stolen code and recode it themselves. Shame that wasn't done from the very start, but it is a step in the right direction.
Megadimensao is not being banned because we must assume that he did not see the forum's stance on using Mason's code before he made his post.
Until a future time when Desafio Mortal no longer appears to be using Mason's stolen code, it will not be supported here on this forum. We respect and support our relatively small group of audio game developers, and the theft of their work will not be condoned. As has been said before, we can not and would not try to stop people from playing this game. Anyone that is not bothered by this game's beginnings, is welcome to play the game, but I do ask that it not be distributed here on the message board. Talking about something is fine, but "supporting" it is another thing entirely. If people post actual links to where this game can be downloaded, the links will be removed.
I do apologize for how long it took for an official decision to be made. This thread is being closed but not deleted, because for all the drama, plenty of beneficial posts have been made. If another moderator later decides that this thread should be either unlocked or deleted, then they are welcome to make the change.
+8
Entirely supported, and thumbs up.
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