2017-02-16 00:31:05

OK I want to know does anyone really buy into the entire Helen Keller nonsense. After reading a book called the blind rage after 3 hours I'm starting to have questions about her level of knowledge. This is a letter to one of her writers saying how much she liked his work.
I thought you would be glad to hear that your beautiful poems make me very happy. Yesterday I read “In School Days” and “My Playmate,” and I enjoyed them greatly. . . . It is very pleasant to live here in our beautiful world. I cannot see the lovely things with my eyes, but my mind can see them all, and so I am joyful all the day long. When I walk out in my garden I cannot see the beautiful flowers, but I know that they are all around me; for is not the air sweet with their fragrance? I know too that the tiny lily-bells are whispering pretty secrets to their companions else they would not look so happy. I love you very dearly, because you have taught me so many lovely things about flowers and birds, and people.
Now can someone tell me how a 9 year old could write this level of thought? So I'm wondering was the disabled population fed the largest lie in American history and are we all just looking up to someone who was nothing more than a frod?

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2017-02-16 01:03:28

The conspiracy would have to be on an international level... as she's well known not only in the US, but other placeas as well. And simply because you can
t imagine a nine year old writing this level of thoght doesn't necessarily mean that this isn't possible. Does the book specifically state that she was nine when she wrote it?

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2017-02-16 01:51:45 (edited by mrpibb 2017-02-16 01:54:14)

H. P. Lovecraft wrote The Beast in the Cave when he was 14. You can find it here:
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/tex … on/bc.aspx

I'd intended to use that as an example that there are  instances of other young people from around the turn of the century that were good writers at young ages (I'm guessing from better education than we get at that age now) but that story wasn't published until 1918 so might have been changed from the version he wrote at 14. I found a bio of him here:
http://www.hplovecraft.com/life/biograph.aspx
that states he paraphrased the odyssey at  age 7 in an 88 line poem. Apparently  that poem is only in the book The Ancient Track: The Complete Poetical Works of H. P. Lovecraft but I couldn't find an accessible copy so can't speak to the quality of his writing at that age.

2017-02-16 13:30:38

I've actually run into helen keller  quite often in course of my research.
Firstly, the simple answer about whether a nine year old write like that is heck yes! especially at the turn of the twentieth century when the maturity level for children generally higher anyway.

Hellthe political philosopher john Stewart mill  learning griek at the age of four, so I don't think it's too much of a stretch to see someone writing coherently at the age of nine, especially someone I might add for whom writing was her main way of interacting with the world.

I will say I do authors who magnify Helen Keller into some sort of angelic figure a ridiculous, indeed if you read a little about her you realize she was as human as everyone else, for example there's a  detailing how much she disliked people with learning disabilities and was sorry they shared a common area.

I would certainly agree that the use! of helen Keller as a symbol is  far too often ridiculously overblown and patronising, but that she did achieve some extraordinary things I don't doubt.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-02-16 15:32:18

Look at political speeches from as far back as you can go and then compare them to the cespool of junk we have today.  People were expected to know more even as little as 20 years ago!

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-02-17 01:35:02 (edited by daigonite 2017-02-17 01:35:49)

I don't know a ton about HK but I don't think there's anything to suggest she was a result of a conspiracy. Children at 9 can write that well, especially if they are lingually inclined. It's not like she had a lot to do back then lol so she probably was better at it than most children her age.

Naw, if you want to go after HK for something, go after how people use her to make people think blind people are useless lol. It's either her or stevie wonder, you get to be deafblind or a musician, HAVE FUN

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2017-02-17 13:16:00

@hhurstseth405:
I hope I totally misunderstood your first post in this topic.
So, are you calling this nonsense, because you don't believe a 9 year old death blind girl is able to feel and write all this stuff?
Are you not caring about all the visual stuff like flowers, how the trees looks and how everything looks in generel because you are blind? If that's how you see the world, or rather, listen, smell and feel and exclude all the visual stuff because you can't see it, then I'll tell you that many other blind people are different.
I do care about all the visual stuff. I care about how things looks, how the weather changes things around me. I do care about the visual design etc.
If you think that deaf blind people don't do that as well, then I'll tell you that you're completely wrong. I train def blind people.
Helen Keller is born with normal sight and normal hearing, so she might have had an even better visual understanding than us who are born blind.
So, I'm sorry, but I don't get what you're trying to say in the first post...
I'm really sorry if I totally misunderstand all this...

Best regards SLJ.
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2017-02-17 15:12:33

Slj, what he's basically saying is how could someone at the age of 9 write such level of thought. Nothing to do with being deaf-blind or anything that's part of this so-called conspiracy, but the level of thought of this writing. It should again be noted that people were expected to know a hell of a lot more back then, back when twitter just meant what happened when birds got angry, *not angry birds, lol!* and there were no shorthand writing methods. My point is that 9years old back then meant a lot more than 9years old today.

2017-02-17 15:28:33

A ton more!  Not too long ago, reading Robinhood was done entirely in old English by children!  You don't expect any 9 year olds today to know what thee thy and thou are.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

2017-02-17 16:38:04

Well even today you do find the odd kid with brains, and brains aren't something related to sensory organs big_smile.

Generally depressing though the modern world is, it's depressingness tends to be more a generalized thing, ie, governments, companies, decisions made by people's assumptions rather than actual thought or care taken over things, all the bits that for short hand I call "the collective"

On an individual level though, people are people, and you still get the good and the bad, the wise and the ignorant, the virtuous and the vicious, the kind and the cruel, the open minded and the bigot.

it's just a shame that generally most decisions about how the world gets run are made by the people in the latter ends of said spectrums, not the former big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-02-17 17:05:07 (edited by CAE_Jones 2017-02-17 17:09:04)

Yes, 9 year olds are capable of that, and better. Notice how it seems kinda childish in some places, but poetic in others? And how she was writing about poetry? And how this was way before the 1970s, and all of her reading material would probably have been shorter classics. My writing style at 9 was less flowery and more influenced by Animorphs. I've read more impressive things from 9-year-olds. Low expectations are bad for everyone, not just blind people.
I am presently annoyed that the things I wrote when I was 9 are in a box in a storage trailer which is probably infested with mold rats and humidity. That is not where you store irreplaceable things made of paper!
But here's something I narrated when I was 7, which is simultaneously embarrassingly bad and stylized:

[he] didn't listen to it. He felt it with his sensing powers, for he knew that, someday, what was about to happen would all happen again.

Most of the recording is like this--stuff that sounds like it came from a Victorian era children's book, mixed with the stupid-sounding stuff you'd expect.
It's also leagues better than the first recording I reached for, which was from a few months earlier and involved me throwing in random Power Rangers/Ninja Turtles/Planeteers references and technobabble and nonsensical combinations of words that sounded like they were supposed to mean something profound at the time. I'm actually kinda surprised by the skill gap, considering that these were in the same year. Practice makes a load of difference, apparently. And I'm pretty sure Hellen Keller practiced way, way more than me.

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2017-02-17 21:24:07

Hi,
I think a nine-year-old child can write at that level of thinking and perceiving.
I remember when I was in the third grade, we were told to write ten sentences containing the words bird, flower, trees, spring, and nature. I remember having written something like "The nightingales were sweetly singing on a beautiful tree, while welcoming the spring that awakens all the flowers from the long sleep of the coldly dark winter."
My close friend lost his father three weeks after he was born, and his family went through a very difficult situation. His family couldn't afford buying fancy toys for him, so his mum entertained my friend through books. He told me his mum had read him more than twenty books in a span of two years. So, when he enrolled at school by the age of six, he could speak fluently and new how to, for example, say the plural of words, or different tenses of verbs. He even told me of an example, where he had been asked by his teacher,: "we have a mouse, but what about two?". All the pupils said "two mouses", while my friend frantically said, "No! We say two mice!"
So, I'm not surprised at all if she could write such a letter to that author.

2017-02-18 02:29:19

In Australia, all students must take standardised tests in spelling, grammar, punctuation, reading, writing and mathematics when they are aged approximately nine, eleven, thirteen and fifteen. The tests aren't used to show the intelligence of the students, but to compare teachers across different schools and in different areas. A report published recently shows that, although the level of difficulty of the tests remains the same from year to year, each year, the average results are dropping.

2017-02-18 02:30:19

And it is possible that Helen Keller had assistance when writing this letter with spelling--word choice--that sort of thing.

2017-02-18 06:04:05

A child's ability to parse thoughts coherently is directly tied to the sorts of language and material around them.

Keller obviously had a high reading level at nine, so her ability to express herself linguistically was similarly advanced, plus of course, it's likely that reading and writing were her mane modes of expression, there not being too much by way of sign language around then. Though equally bare in mind there was a lot of shlock around then too, (they didn't call them penny dreadfuls for nothing), so undoubtedly Keller's coherence wasn't just a reflection of her time, she did actually have a brain (something I do approve of).

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2017-02-19 11:13:27

Def people in generel are trying to learn to write as good as possible, to make sure people understand them. Yes, it's indeed possible that a 9 years old girl can write all that.

Best regards SLJ.
Feel free to contact me privately if you have something in mind. If you do so, then please send me a mail instead of using the private message on the forum, since I don't check those very often.
Facebook: https://facebook.com/sorenjensen1988
Twitter: https://twitter.com/soerenjensen

2017-02-19 14:30:32

Low Expectations™ are bad for everyone. That is something out of one of the NFB's main slogans (paraphrased heavily, of course tongue ), but it didn't stick with me because of their repeating it every chance they get. What really made it sink in was reading someone's account of living with low expectations for being female.
And, well, low expectations for children have bugged me since Y2K, only because I didn't really catch on before then.

I was hoping I'd saved the woman's story in my big file of quotes, but but while I was looking for it I found these instead:

5:42 AM 11/10/2016:

[–]nonoforreal 4 points 11 hours ago 
I just want to chip in that I think that TK17 is closer to the truth here than many people realize.
Jared Diamond, who has spent a lot of time among tribal peoples, has expressed some amazement at the children of many tribal cultures. (He is far from the only one.)
In one of his books, he relates a bit about a 10-year old boy named Talu, who hired himself out as a porter and guide to Diamond. His parents had no say - they had not been in the village for some days at the time Talu took the job - and everyone treated this as normal. The boy went with him for several days, helping when the trail was blocked by a flood, among other things, and then hired himself out longer as an assistant at his camp - he stayed with Diamond for a month until the work was done, collected his pay, and then walked home on his own. That level of independence was taken completely for granted among his tribesmen, with him just relaying messages to his family about what he planned to be up to using people who would be heading to the village.
Similarly, among the Piraha, children are basically treated as smaller, weaker adults. Parents deal with them by reasoning with them rather than appealing to authority or punishing - in fact, the apparently quite culturally egalitarian Piraha don't see children as being fundamentally that different than adults. They are allowed to play with sharp knives from when they are toddlers. This does result in some injuries, but many more children cope just fine.
Aka Pygmies trust their 10-year olds to travel and take care of themselves in the rainforest, defending against leopards and the like, and event trust them with 4-year olds while doing so.
Human children are capable of a great deal of intelligence and independence, and can be quite successful at it. Western civilization has generally agreed that the rate of attrition that comes with that is unacceptable, and chooses to have more surviving children rather than more capable children. This doesn't change the fact that, presented with the opportunity, children can deal with a lot of intellectually demanding things pretty well compared to an adult with a similar level of ignorance of the task at hand.


"My tagline, as a teacher and as a person-who-wants-to-force-multiply-good-people: I treat everyone like children, because I treat children like humans."

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2017-02-19 19:40:02

What I meant to say is were these hk's thoughts or just the thoughts and projections of her teacher?

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2017-02-22 17:29:24

Ÿou could hardly prove that nowadays, one way or the other. However, since she has written stuff with more content than that later on in her life, which is obviously attributed to herself alone, i.e. without aid, and she is said to be a genius by some authorities, I wouldn't be very surprised if these were in deed her very own thoughts even at that age.

If I remember correctly, she still had to rely on her teacher to actually write for her at that age, i.e. Keller spelled her thoughts in words using the finger alphabet into the teacher's hand (this alphabet does in deed convey the concept of true spelling letter by letter, by the way) and the teacher then wrote that out on paper. I read a book by a local author which thoroughly maps Keller's entire life, and it's also highly acclaimed for the author having spent dozens of years getting to know all the various available resources on Keller's life in order to be as accurate as possible, which nicely portrays the obvious and incredibly fast developments. Her writing style as well as her expresion ability in general were literally, noticeably improving day by day at a certain age. Not to mention that there were many people even then, at her time, who were doing the same thing as you, refusing to believe that a girl of her age and with her disability could have expressed such thoughts uniquely by herself.

Lukas

I won't be using this account any more or participating in the forum activity through other childish means like creating an alternate account. I've asked for the account to be removed but I'm not sure if that's actually technically possible here. Just writing this for people to know that I won't be replying, posting new topics or checking private messages until the account is potentially removed.