So, teleport. I get that it takes you out of battle except in tamer fights, but so does flee, and everyone gets access to that. Is there any reason to use teleport over flee? Is there any reason for teleport to occupy a move slot? Perhaps it's just one of those moves added in to put a monkey wrench into the process of catching it, but has little use outside of that. And berserk. This seems like something that's useful only in tamer fights later in the game to stop them from using healing items. That and in online battles to annoy people I guess. Does it do anything other than just make you use random moves from your list for a few rounds? I usually ditch the berserk stuff and try to get one hit kills. That stops them from using healing items too. 
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#2,726 2016-09-14 20:54:54
#2,727 2016-09-14 21:14:53
Teleport has no uses at all once the manamon has been caught.
I think the berserk status is useful in some situations. For example, if you encounter an opponent with an attack that your manamon is weak to, and you can hit before they do, you can try to make them go berserk so that they're less likely to use that move on you again and again.
#2,728 2016-09-14 21:34:55
I personally have never used the Berserk status deliberately. Berserk Branch has a chance of giving it to the opponent, and that's cool and helpful...but it's not something I'd rely on. Too much randomness and luck involved.
Random observation, but I feel like with many of these manamon, the "four moves of the same type = good" mentality has been used.
Here's what I mean.
In pokemon, some not-so-good battlers would do something like Ember, Fire Spin, Fire Blast and Flamethrower on a Ninetales (a fire type). This is a ridiculous moveset because you should pick one, maybe two, of those moves, and use other options.
Well, many manamon have basically nothing but moves of their own type, and they can't learn anything externally, so they end up being one-trick ponies as I've discussed before. The manamon who are ultimately going to become useful are either 1. the ones who are so strong that it doesn't matter what they're stuck with, or 2. the ones who have other coverage besides their own type, coverage that they can use well.
I wonder how much Aaron and Damian played pokemon, and whether or not they were the type of player who'd put three or four fire moves on a pokemon because it looked cool. Heh.
Someone asked earlier if Dussoket learns any physical electric moves. Yes it does. It gets Sparking Tail and Zap Slam. Zap Slam is kind of bad, but Sparking Tail is pretty good, and Dussoket hits like a truck.
Teleport is ripped straight out of pokemon. Wild Abra have it, and it just makes them harder to catch. Once you've caught the pokemon, Teleport is a wasted moveslot and should be done away with ASAP.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,729 2016-09-14 23:15:42
I've got high hopes for Mortrex. My Aperishian at level 47 had a fair bit of HP, bad attack, fairly bad defense, decent special attack, good special defense and decent speed. And of course, it gets a bit of a bump when transforming. I just don't know how big.
So, uh, I don't know if this is new, as I've never once seen a tamer use it. But Aperishian gets...Daring Comeback. A ghost and shadow type. Gets a physical move meant to sort of even the scales. I mean, this is a really neat concept since I think Mortrex is fast, and it could really turn the tide. But how exactly does a ghost attack with all of its might? It's a ghost! This just made me chuckle.
I'm gonna have to breed a good Spirost and then get one of you good people to help me transform it.
Discovered this afternoon that Matt's Sacroloon has exactly 218HP, which with both screens is actually pretty damned tankish. Might take the cake for the overall best holy type in the game, barring the mythical of course.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,730 2016-09-14 23:48:15
Imo misses shouldn't take usage points since they can take up several turns, as I just missed a move 4 times in a row. So technically the one time it hit was worth 5 usage points and about 15 hp, because that's what I gave up for that kill. I should have only used a single usage point, and lost zero hp. Maybe I should be using skill drinks to recover those wasted skill points, but before mineruff tunnel? I doubt it. I could go back to the hotel, yeah for usage points. I guess it's close enough. I'm not paying gold to be healed. Not for misses. Still continuing on with the strategy of building for misses. All hp and defense to see how it goes. That first strike stuff where I put all training points into attack and speed only works if I'm striking first. A miss isn't that. That only takes off zero hp and has none chance of inflicting no status. Nope, I need hp, and defense, and lots of it. Let's make the misses hurt less.
#2,731 2016-09-15 01:07:32
See, this is tricky. Logically speaking, if I fire a lightning bolt at you and you dodge, I still used that lightning bolt. So I only have the energy to use, say, four more of them before I'm exhausted. So that would make sense from a logical side.
I think the simple answer here is to make 100% accurate moves the norm, and only make particular attacks inaccurate.
By 100% accurate, I don't mean like Aura Master or Sonic Missile, which always always hit regardless of accuracy drops. I mean like Superspark or Earthquake, which will hit (barring immunity) every time except for accuracy mods.
As it stands, I agree that the game is essentially too luck-based for a competitive metagame to emerge.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,732 2016-09-15 04:32:47
I agree on the sad lack of a metagame. which kind of stinks.
p.s training up palidine, and drategeull are pains in the butt.
also, kuro's level 38 mortrex in tangeria tower gets psycho trick, yet mortrex itself doesn't get it untill 44.
guess it's the same with mathew's dracomater with draco breaker at level 60 and not the 75 it's supposed to come at.
did I mention training drategeull is a pain in the rump? 32 levels to go. and trying to find a place to train it that high before shadow kingdom will not, be, cute.
A blue-eyed, pale pink, kitten that can smash the smashing out of people.
I'm mew, and you're going to get smashed.
#2,733 2016-09-15 04:56:27
Well, uh, hurrrrr durrrrrr, I guess they're criminals or evil or something and um, hurrrrrrrrrr durrrrrrrrrrr they cheat, or something. Yeah, gotta hand-wave some of that stuff, since no other explanation was provided or attempted, and the story doesn't tell you that other than to make you aware that you're the good guy playing by the rules, and these people are just evil and sad.
#2,734 2016-09-15 05:54:55 (edited by Loxias 2016-09-15 05:55:20)
Her Deciced also has Vulnerability Scan before it's supposed to, I think. Matters less because even if it's super effective, it's still 40 power running off its crappier special attack, but yeah.
Still not sure why people are having a hard time training Paladine. I guess I can see it if you didn't take advantage of having Dustin along with you, but once it learns White Lance, it kills stuff pretty well, and giving it a Holy Ring to equip solve the speed problem, at least at that level.
#2,735 2016-09-15 08:45:09
Okay, I've got my Aperishian all ready to trade. It's got perfect defense, well-developed or better in everything except attack, which is "not so good". If Aaron ever makes Night Stick special, this won't matter. Really, I just want to see how massively he jumps when I transform him, and want to see how effective he is.
So at this point I'd like to find someone to host a trade if possible. Don't worry, this should be the last trade I ever want. If I really want a Grizzlord I will probably just get the in-game one and extrapolate, and I know Lamgurk sucks. Everything else, I can figure out on my own.
A few more findings:
Dragomier just finds too little to do in the master stadium. I can kill Skirial on the second team, can hit the fire types with Wing Slash and reliably two or three-shot them (Garganchan dies faster)...but he's weak to so much else that he really struggles to be useful. He's hard to level up, takes forever to get his best move, relies before then on some really bad dragon attacks, and has terrible defense. I think Dramagon is just all-around the better dragon. I'd like to say that Dragomier has blisteringly high attack, but Garganchan's is considerably higher, and Garganchan has better defense with fairly comparable HP. His speed's in the dumps, but he gets better coverage. I'm sorry I ranked on this guy early on; stick with him, and he's a powerhouse.
Pandourbit is just all-around good, so long as you're okay with taking hits. Spirit Force, Earthquake, Stone Throw, Roar and Soul Split is my preferred set on him. At level 65 mine's got over 200HP and over 125 in both defenses, plus nearly 195 attack.
Aperishian line gets Dark Gift, which is one of those sneaky-surprising moves if you want it to set up. It also gets Unending Curse, but I feel like that move's wasted on Mortrex. I'll have to see his defenses once he transforms and gains twenty-odd levels before I'm sure, but I think I'd rather be using Subliminal Radio Wave, PsychoTrick and even Night Stick/Fear Feed/Dark Gift for better options.
Gonna actually look more closely at Leonatar soon, see what I can find out. I still think he's probably the best straight-up earth type (fast, good coverage, reliable), but I'm willing to change my mind if his defenses are just too pitiful and if his attack is simply not as good as I remember.
So yeah. If you can host a trade, please let me know. All in the name of research.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,736 2016-09-15 10:07:34
Leonatar is what I went with on my last playthrough. Once it gets earthquake it wrecks stuff. Someone on here mentioned leveling up enchandithol was a pain. I haven't seen much evidence of that yet, but the gronk that you get as a gift is basically a real ninny to level up so far. I'm still just before the mineruff tunnel grinding up stuff, and he's getting his ass beat all over the place by the water and plant damage in that path. I don't remember if you detailed your strategy for beating octoross the first time. I'd guess you had to level everything into the 30's or so? But then how did you beat that team with the stuff you pick up in the tunnels? The team you made the guide with had stuff like oblivion slash and earthquake starting at level 1 didn't it? I'm thinking I don't need the gold and exp available from those fights, and I'll probably put my team away and just tank that battle with a squirmunk or something since I'm meant to lose anyway. Hmm plant ninnies. There has to be a better one than banyardan. How about thornita? Sleep spray, implant, and then whomp on the victim while it's napping?
#2,737 2016-09-15 10:42:14 (edited by Jayde 2016-09-15 10:50:33)
I like Banyardan over Thornita, but Thornita can do more plant-based damage with Nature Dance. Plus if you wail stuff to death, you can switch instead of being locked in. It only gets Acid Slap for poison damage though, and poison is busted in this game. Too many weaknesses, not too many things it's good against. Junanchel isn't bad either. High attack, Solar Conversion to boost its physical stats, sadly no sleep move, but it gets Assault Tackle for some standard damage as well. A bit slow and sorta tankish, but potentially usable.
My Leonatar at level 56 had 122 attack, untrained. I think I like this guy. Its defenses are a tad low, but not brutally so.
I didn't detail the way I beat Octoross because I honestly don't remember much. A good amount of his team is weak to either magic or electric or both. I think I did most of it with Dussoket, and just used about a dozen and a half herbs. Domestress was useless in that fight, but I recall Dussoket, Tarba and even Elvond having their uses. The team was level 20-22 when I did it, and I didn't have any serious problems. Beat him again this playthrough, with a team near about the same level. Mondevol did a lot of the work, Feefeye and Drabao were damn near useless in that fight, and Reefe didn't have a reliable water move yet.
Gronk gets a lot better to level in Mt. Cinder, with all the flame types running around. It does take a little while to get going because it doesn't have any strong earth or magic moves for awhile, and it's got a pretty big handful of weaknesses.
Coming back to poison for a moment, I think the type needs a revamp.
Should be super-effective against shadow, magic, plant, water and insect
should be not very effective against poison, stone and undead
should be not effective against steel (immunity)
As it stands right now, poison just gets wrecked. Earth and magic are common types, and poison just doesn't pull its weight. I'd like to see water have more weaknesses than just plant and electric, I'd like to see magic get another weakness, and I'd like to see undead lose an immunity (it's already got one) and steel gain one (steel is another shafted type). If I could justify it, I'd even let poison be neutral against insect.
Right now, having a poison type or a part-poison type on your team is inviting a liability, because there is not a single poison type I've yet seen that really uses its second type well. Ratiera is bad in general and gets...Pollution Solution, and that's it, but it doesn't have the stats to support a toxic-stall set. Sansurgion is pure poison, and not bad actually, but you're limited to Ooze Blast and Takedown, the latter of which does recoil damage. Turoison isn't bad either, but it's fairly slow, fairly defensive, and its only poison move (Toxic Storm) is also air type. So it picks up a couple of weaknesses for a few small bonuses, not a fair trade-off in my view. Skirial gets Toxic Storm, but Skirial isn't all that good to begin with. Trumer...I'm not sure of his best poison move, but again, see my notes on Skirial (read: not that good to begin with, sorta meh at everything except HP, which is good). I think that's the entirety of the poison spectrum, and magic/earth are just too common. There's a good reason why I breathe a sigh of relief when I see a poison-type manamon; it's an easy death.
My tweaks would make the type more competitively dangerous without breaking it. It would knock undead down just a little, would bump steel up just a little, would weaken water a little as well, and might actually see something like Sansurgion gain a little popularity. I dunno.
I don't even know if Aaron's still reading any of this, or caring if he does.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,738 2016-09-15 14:34:25
Hey Jayde, I'd be glad to help you transform your Aperishian. Let me know when you might be available, either here on the forum, or if you're on Twitter, I'm j_hsw there.
#2,739 2016-09-15 18:11:49
JasonSW,
I'm not on Twitter or anything, but I'm willing and able to trade pretty much any time today.
I'm currently GMT-9 (I'm in Alaska visiting my mother). I don't know your time zone, but it's currently just past eight in the morning here. I might be busy later tonight (say around ten hours from now), but otherwise I'm wide, wide open. Just let me know when is good for you, and we can do this. Thanks in advance.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,740 2016-09-15 18:38:18
Alright, PM is sent. If you're available now, go ahead and connect, otherwise we can try this later.
#2,741 2016-09-15 18:44:24
I can't get at my PMs for some reason.
I have this problem sometimes. I can get at my profile itself, but there's no link up top that lets me into my personal messages. I frankly don't get it. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.
I've tried using two different screenreaders and two different browsers, and it's still not there.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,742 2016-09-15 19:02:28
Worked like a charm. Thank you.
Mortrex didn't appear to jump very much in stats, but perhaps its per-level leaps get a bit bigger. We'll see. Either way, that should be the last trade I ever actually need to make, so hurrah!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,743 2016-09-15 19:45:05
I was more referring to how you beat your own team. I assume you were having to deal with oblivion slash and earthquake with that stuff from the tunnels right? Even if your team wasn't healed to full health when you had to fight them, I'd still think some of those matchups would be really bad and those moves would really hurt. I usually go to the trouble of grinding my team up into the 20's and just tanking the first octoross fight so I can get out without too much fuss.
#2,744 2016-09-15 19:54:01
I had a Monja, Granate, Leonra and Ratsal all at level 18-19 when I fought Octoross using my team. One Oblivion Slash damn near killed Dussoket, so I just sacrificed someone. Tarba's Earthquake is nice and all, but it's not utterly lethal since its attack stat was not too good. I mean no, the fight wasn't easier - I did have more trouble with it than with the actual Octoross-is-cheating fight that comes before - but it wasn't utterly brutal either. Yavin's manamon sometimes did nice damage, and when they didn't, they served as nice distractions for Octoross to wail on.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,745 2016-09-15 22:05:11
OMG, you guys, I just found out something that blows things wide open.
Tenshaino gets Hone Blade at some point. I just saw Seinarus's level 92 Tenshaino use Hone Blade. Poor thing was dead meat vs. my level 74 Fiendour, but still!
Hone Blade, White Lance, Power Punch, Battlecry, Daring Comeback/Piledriver...this thing could wreck. Seriously wreck. I mean, thank god it's slow. Haha.
I now have all three mythical dragons. I feel underwhelmed by Zeognioss, generally speaking, but Irroadium is good and Taballus is fairly good...a bit more of a tank. And it can learn both manatize and Demanatize, which is cool. Ziognioss can learn Condemn, which is also neat if you like that sort of thing.
Leonatar is definitely a winner, and so is Mortrex. Mortrex isn't a one-hit killer, exactly, but its only not-so-great stat is attack, and even that's not awful, it's just a bit on the low side. Leonatar's a little on the frail side, but he hits more than hard enough.
So yeah, just thought you guys might wanna know about Tenshaino's Hone Blade, if you didn't already.
Sacroloon also gets Wing Slash for some bizarre reason, but running off his weakest stat I daresay it's not really worth much.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,746 2016-09-15 23:19:47 (edited by Loxias 2016-09-15 23:20:37)
Oh huh, when does zeogneoss get Condemn, is it some silly high level? Or is it from the memory tutor and I just forgot?
Also, my Tenshaino did learn Hone Blades, I think about level 68. Aaron did mention that it got it in his email reply to me when I brought up him having no good fighting moves. So I guess that's a good reason why he doesn't get a better one, but I still agree he did need Power Punch. The poor speed and multitude of weaknesses still keeps him in check pretty well though.
#2,747 2016-09-15 23:30:47
Condemn is a move tutor move. I wish more types got this, honestly. Sacroloon could use it, as could Mortrex. Hell, even Dormanoid could use it, though Dormanoid will surprise you...its attack is actually pretty solid, even if everything else is meh.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,748 2016-09-16 08:28:09
Sacroloon is good, guys. Like scarily good.
Like, it can take wo Supersparks and not die. Or an Ice Tempest from Arctana and be just around the half health mark. So sure, it's holy-air type and has a lot of weaknesses, and it's basically dead meat against an undead manamon with a headstone amulet. That bites. But it can self-heal, gets dual screens, can use Daring Comeback, and has higher special defense than the mythicals (who admittedly are trained for attack, not tanking). Its defense isn't too hot, but who cares with all that HP?
If this game ever actually gets a metagame where online battles are a thing, I definitely expect Sacroloon to be popular. It's been awhile since I've been legitimately impressed by a manamon, but Sacroloon has done it.
Leonatar, Mortrex, Fiendour...they're all good, don't get me wrong. But this bird made me just stop for a moment. This, guys. This is what manamon could be. Ninety-odd manamon don't have to be deficient. We could make a lot more of them very strong niche players like Sacroloon (different, of course, but strongly niche).
I don't know. Don't mind my gushing. But this bird basically justifies a spot on virtually any team. Just bring along ghost-type support for it, so that if you find an undead manamon (hopefully not Dormanoid, who will trap it and kill it), you can switch out and murder it. With its immediate checks destroyed, and physical threats negated somewhat by Divine Protection based off a very high speed stat, this guy will stick around.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
#2,749 2016-09-16 09:25:06
half health? is that with or without the screens? Is this in the master stadium? It has a speed issue against that jimitron and mortrex doesn't it? So then if you get hit first do you just sit there and heal and heal and heal and heal and heal until you get a break to put up a screen and heal some more and toss in an attack? The sacroloon on seinarus's rematch team seems quite buff, but the ones on teams before that are just easy meat for the most part. I'd have to see this in action but it sounds like, if I used this thing, I would have to herb my opponent's usage points away from fight to fight. I've beaten the master stadium once like that. It wasn't very fun and it was very expensive. Sitting there getting pounded and healing over and over and over until it ran out of usage points for all of its skills. So from then on I tried to outlevel them as much as I can. Heh.
#2,750 2016-09-16 10:09:12
Sacroloon isn't as fast as Ninjarkin, but it's faster than Leonatar that's five levels higher. It's faster than my Fiendour that's like eleven levels higher. Jimitron might (key word, might) outspeed it, but if so, not by much. And you might be able to get around this by dumping some train points into speed. My Sacroloon beats Leonatar in speed without any investment.
And yes. I've seen a level 64 Sacroloon take a SuperSpark from my special-attack-trained Mondevol at level 63, and take about 36% health from it. That's why I started switching to physical moves to kill it.
The main issue with Sacroloon is that it hits reliably, but not overpoweringly hard. One of the reasons that tamer Sacroloons are meat is because they're stupid. They will try and fail to use the same screen more than twice. They will sometimes use moves that don't work, or get locked into Inner Healing, or will put up the wrong screen. Sacroloon is not going to wreck entire teams in six hits (one shot, one kill). No no. It's going to provide decently hard-hitting support, and a lot of bulk if you need a switch. And that's why I highlighted the metagame.
Say you've got a Submenno, who you know is going to die to one hit of SuperSpark, guaranteed. Your foe is about to switch to Jimitron. So switch to Sacroloon. Sounds nuts, but you probably get hit unless you win the speed draw, use Divine Barrier (drops special attacks by 50% for a few turns), get hit once (probably for about 25% health), then switch into something like Mortrex, who now doesn't fear Jimitron's Supersparks and two-shots it with PsychoTrick.
If you know of another dual-screener who has better defenses and better resistance profiles, I'm all ears, because it could arguably be even better for support, particularly if it gets Inner Healing as well.
Also, both Holy Light and Heaven's Winds, as well as Daring Comeback, are all 100% accurate. None of this ridiculous missing crud.
So is it flawless? Hell no. But if you train it right, and get one with halfway good stats, you might be surprised how well it works. If nothing else, use it as your screener, and use your other five manamon to pound the snot out of everything you face. Taking half as much damage is an enormous help.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8ls3rc3f4mkb … n.txt?dl=1
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