2016-06-22 02:10:33

So. First. Know that I am not writing this to harm anyone, but to meerly start a discussion about this and bring it up, and to get some opinions. I understand moderaters are busy and have more than an online life and that people have stressful days, also that with the AG forum, we are getting a completely free service. I write this for the discussion and wellfair of the forum. Were this to be one case, I wouldn't be writing this at all, but it has to do with many general things, that many people are concerned about. No one wanted to bring this up, so I decided I would. As most of you know, a lot has happened in the passed few months. Everything from ultrapower clones to random banns, to loads of flame war topics, and I just wanted to talk about things, and ask for as well as put out my own opinions. Some things will be brought up again that some of you guys may wish to just leave behind, but my personal opinion is that some things really need to happen. Basicly, it goes back to the walter situation. Things had been going down hill before that, but this was the major first point. For reasons unknown to us, walter was banned from the forum nearly permanently. On the forum, he never once personally tried insulting anyone please tell me if I was rong, and apparently it was about stuff happening on survive the wild, as well as darks thinking that he was going to ruin the comunity or something. I am the developer of survive the wild and have posted many logs and much info to show this didn't happen. Sadly only text, and I understand that. Text logs are sometimes not enough. And walter was banned. Dark feels that he has his reasoning and wishes not to share it with us. Ok, I thought, I am very frusterated and don't like it, but i'll let it slide. Then, more ultrapower topics were created, and only one or 2 mods on the forum were trying to do anything about it. Most recently, blink_wizard's beyond the bullet. The topic was requested to not be deleted, and it wasn't. Instead, ivan aka blink_wizard was apparently banned for 6 weeks, or months or what ever the duration was. I just know it wasn't 6 days. But, 2 days later, he was back apparently because a moderater sympithised with the fact that he didn't read the rules. And all this time, reguardless of reports, topics have been falling into the flames left and right recently, and I am hearing more and more negative comments on the forums moderation each day. Let's take this walter thing for example, reguardless of any rules or anything, just, snap, gone. Hardly any warnings, nothing. Just a couple of reports. But then, we report ivan aka blink_wizard who has done a lot more than walter to the forum, and knowtisabbly so. I don't even know what walter did. If me and my friends decided to ruin someones life by all reporting all these lies with forged logs to dark, would that person instantly get banned and the general public would not get very much reason as to why aside from random reports? Why is ivan who has clearly done everything rong, has even told me if he hacked the forum, he would delete this entire dramafield, why is he getting off scotch free. Why are the moderaters accepting excuses like, oh, I didn't read the rules. Maybe dark did have propper reasoning, but because we don't know what it is, at least to me and a lot of people I know, the fact that people like hmmm. Names. blink wizard, lascarlaslm or how ever you spell it, they are causing many issues. They have been reported many times. One got banned for about a day and a half, the other has received many mod warnings, but they are still aloud to do what ever they want, breaking forum rules, calling people mother fuckers and dicks, and recently, there has been no mod action. I say all this because many people are thinking, that this forum is going down hill very very fast. Me and select people honestly consider just making a forum for me them and friends and anyone who wishes to join to talk about this stuff, with better spam filtering than my last one heh. At least for me, I don't really feel comfortable hanging out in a comunity ware the bad people are aloud to roam free, while the inisent people or at least the people we currently think of being inisent are banned because of less than 15 reports. What if someone decides they hate me, and posts a bunch of reports. I'll probably get banned. So, i'd like to close by saying that this topic isn't ment for offense, and I am at least hoping to get a conversation started on the matter. I say this stuff as no more than a forum user, though I know I am writing the opinion of more than one person here. I am hoping something can be done. If I were just an utter protester, i'd say either ban these people or give us better reasoning for banning someone who to our knowledge, hasn't broken any rules. But instead i'm only hoping we can talk about things and get an understanding of everything going on and that hopefully something can happen. If it doesn't, i'm afraid I have to agree with all the people who think that the forum is going to fall into being a giant flame war with in it's self. I know I need to respect the moderaters choices, and I did about walter, until all of this recent stuff that went on with btb, then the redspot topic, etc etc. I hope I haven't offended anyone here. Opinions?

I am a web designer, and a game developer. If you wish see me at http://www.samtupy.com

2016-06-22 02:44:50 (edited by Slender 2016-06-22 02:45:44)

While I'm one of the few lucky ones that don't get involved in drama, I definitely see your point. I can see the atmosphere of drama that just generally seems to be haunting this community; I often quietly follow topics to see how it goes. Often, I see a lot of drama that's allowed to keep going, and yes, mods do step in, but it's mostly warnings. While I see the need to not make the forum seem like a terrible place with bans and all, I think there's a point where the mods just need to lay down the law and do what they need to do, and I see too little of that happening.

Oh no! Somebody released the h key! Everybody run and hide!

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2016-06-22 03:51:23

First, as someone who has just rejoined the moderation team in hopes of providing useful information as well as hoping to establish a comfortable  environment for everyone involved on this forum, I would like to point out perhaps needlessly, that reading every single post is absurdly impossible.  Topics spring up on here; some of them gradually grow over time, while others seem to flourish within hours, sometimes even minutes into flame wars that can easily be prevented with a bit of common sense on the side of the forumites involved.  As it is, I do believe that part of the issue we face is an age range one.  I haven't the slightest idea who the youngest member of this forum is, nor do I know who the oldest might be, and I don't care enough to find out even if it's possible to do so.  if you are a parent and have any children, you know that your relationship with them is different than any you have with adult friends, not just because they're your children, but because they are children, younger than you in every sense.  If you are a child, teenager and or even a young adult, your closest to those who are closest to you in age for the most part; exceptions exist.
Next, I feel the need to share something with all of you for the sake of transparency.  while Dark usually takes the final stance on any matter concerning the forum, whatever the matter in question may be, particularly if the situation has spiraled out of control owing to circumstances that are a little more intense than others, he does listen to the rest of us.  Moderation warnings are not to be handed out lightly.  While we could assume a take action and ask questions later stance on every situation that arises owing that reversing a ban on here is rather easy, we normally don't.  I think such a stance would actually be more destructive than helpful.  For the most part, he trusts our judgment, knowing that sentinels in this world are not infallible.  Mistakes are made; that's the long and short of it.  We always do our best to act as neutrally as possible and without bias, but we are human, which makes us, each and every single one of us, at least somewhat judgmental.
Finally, some of us have gotten rather busy recently.  while this is public information, it's also possible that some of you may not know owing to the fact that you don't read various topics, but Dark is in the process of getting married.  Not only are he and his soon-to-be wife carefully planning their wedding for the best experience, which in itself is a hectic enough task, but they are both from different countries, which makes it that much harder to coordinate.  Understanding the situation a little better since I was somewhat there myself not too long ago though not having it anywhere near as hard as he currently does, coupled with my belief in this site and its forum, I've returned and brought someone else with me.  We are currently in the process of watching various topics and believe me, the current redspot topic has not gone unnoticed.  While we are only two new moderators, we will do our absolute best to try and ease some of the discomfort and overall annoyance level I'm sure many are feeling.  We will be just as, if not possibly more involved in checking reports as they come in and will do our best to deal with them ASAP.  For now, I personally would like to ask anyone reading this topic and who might have felt offended by previous matters which may have seemed like nonsense, to be as patient as you can with the moderation panel.  This isn't me trying to apologize for anyone but simply stating it from my perspective, as I'm sure other moderators will more than likely do soon enough.  They are a great team and, I have no doubt, work to the best of their abilities.  Most of the database and most recent news articles have been singlehandedly written by Dark, with reports being checked into and read by Sebbi, with bans on spambots and other such unfortunates being taken care of by everyone else as they come.  We're here to help, and will be checking things out as much as possible.

When life gives you oranges, demand lemons since everyone else is obviously getting them.

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2016-06-22 12:13:06

I'll leave the other issues for a later time, and because I think others are better placed to comment, but I'll say now, briefly, that I was the person ultimately responsible for banning and then unbanning Mr. Wizard. I agree it's frustrating when your suspicions are out of line with the evidence, but that's life, and I believe in the presumption of innocence over guilt. You will have to bear with us while we catch this slippery customer properly. Meanwhile, if you know something that would make it easier for us to come to a decision in cases like this, you have only to tell us. We really are trying our best.

Just myself, as usual.

2016-06-22 13:07:17

Hi, well, i have been more active around here lately, so expect me to step in as well, and deal with situations like the recent blink wizard drama as effectively as i can. I'm sure between all of us, the drama will not be as frequent as it has been over the past few months or so. Remember we mods are human, and we can even make decisions that we later go back on because we are given new perspective, not because we are taking sides. I will personally look at any topic you want Sam, and take appropriate action if needed. So please try to relax and enjoy your time here. Play games, and keep up the great work on Redspot, i love that game dude, your doing a great job on it. We want you to feel welcome here, not put out in the cold just because drama pops up here and there.

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2016-06-22 16:00:22

Well while it is true that I have not been able to spend as much time dealing with forum issues as I would've liked as  Nocturnus has said, at the same time I find it a little ironic that these very same things have been said by different people several times before, it happens roughly once every three years or so.
I believe it tends to occur due to an influx of people (often but not always teenagers), who tend to bounce off each other combined with a couple of trouble makers who stir things up and get everyone annoyed. Generally one of two things happens in the resolution, either the trouble makers push things too far and get banned, or they settle down (I can think of a couple long standing members who's earlier career on this forum did not start well), one reason why we try to not be so quick to judge, because mistaken punishment for those who aren't guilty is a far worse thing than the opposite.

As Arq said we generally hold things at a fairly relaxed pace on the forum, though I will remind people of the report link and the fact that now we have more people watching the reports they're far more likely to get dealt with.

As to the Walter affair, that was a one off and something I hope will never! occur again, certainly not symptomatic of what's happened here I think.

Btw, as regards age range, I believe our oldest members are over 50, while youngest have been about eleven, at least as far as those who actually declared their ages go.
For all that though, I've met 40 year olds who behave like selfish, spoiled kids, and 13 year olds who are effectively mature adults.

Generally it depends upon the person, and as far as this forum goes, again, if people would just be nice to each other we wouldn't have a problem big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-06-22 17:33:36

As a moderator I'm also going to have to step in here and say that I've not encountered so much drama before, and it's taking a while to sort out the mess, or becoming even more difficult at times as it's just increasing. We don't want to just act and find out that we're wrong (and I mean very very wrong) and cause unrest. By the same token I realize that things have been sort of quiet lately for instance getting some stuff sorted and also the Steam situation, and it's because for me personally I want to deal with things quite delicately and definitely not rush into it.

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2016-06-22 18:49:37

I believe Aaron is on the same page I am.
Side note... with all of our moderators here in the same thread, at the same time, what happens if this thread gets deleted?  Aren't the moderators supposed to always be kept some minimum distance away from each other, so we can't all be destroyed or something?  Maybe I'm thinking of the president and vice president, but I'm pretty sure in school it was forum moderators they were teaching us about.

Okay back on track.  I agree with Sam that the Walter thing seemed to kick off a long lasting period of increased drama.  The problem we have is that when things got overly crazy it meant that my fellow moderators and I tried to be extra careful not to add to the crap-storm.  By our being extra careful, it meant people got away with stuff for longer as behind the scenes the moderator team talked it all over trying to agree on the right course of action.  In the past, pre-Walter-issue I mean, usually one of us would just jump right in and deal with situations.

So as counter intuitive as it may sound, the bad situation is actually a major reason things have not seemed to improve.  None of us want to jump in and maybe make a wrong decision that will lower forum morale further, but by taking our time the delay itself it lowering forum morale.  We're stuck in a lose lose situation at the moment.

To add to the problem we've expanded the moderation team.  I should stop and clarify that expanding the team is almost certainly a Good thing, but the act of expending it will have negative effects in the short term.  Having more moderators seems like the best way to have more "eyes" on the many ongoing threads, but it also means we have more people weighing in whenever issues do come up.  There are more people to toss in their opinions on whether or not a situation needs to be moderated, and more people that need to ultimately agree on the right way to do the moderating.  It makes it easier for us to spot trouble makers and flame wars starting, but then adds more time before we agree on what to do about it.

The forum's lower morale is also causing more and more people to cause trouble just for the sake of causing trouble.  More often than not, they do things just to try to force moderators to make unpopular decisions, or cause trouble just so they can point out some of these past situations (such as the Walter, Steam, or various UP clones).  So on top of everything else, the number of trouble makers and drama trolls has increased.

We take 1 step forward and then 2 steps back.

- Aprone
Please try out my games and programs:
Aprone's software

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2016-06-22 20:29:43

Hi. Yes, I totally understand and am glad that everyone is trying to make the forum as good as possible. Of course I know you are just human and everyone makes mistakes. Also, I know that aprone is completely right about one thing, but slightly wrong on one stance. I got my self farther into the bad guys than I wanted to, maybe that just has to do with me trying to figure out everything I shouldn't even be touching. But weather it is a conversation I got randomly added into or something I saw in a chat or whatevs, these guys like blink wizard and others, they don't think there is going to be mod action. They don't make these choices because they think the mods are going to make a bad choice, they do it because they feel the rediculis need to proove that the moderation teem is terible. Do I agree? No, I don't, of course. I feel that there have been a fiew situations that even now I question aka walter, but i'd never do what they're doing. What they do lowers the forum morale, simply because they post this stuff then go around off the forum saying to everyone possible, hey, look what I did. The mods arn't doing anything. Again, I totally disagree with all this. I understand that you guys are actually propper humans who have both a life off of the internet and that you have to agree on things. However, harsh as this may sound they don't. They sleep, wake up, eat, then go right back to hacking one guy or another. I say this out of what i've scene, none of it is asumption, but so as to not start anything, I won't say anything more about that. One of everyones biggest problems right now, why these people are getting away with it, why the walter situation started everything, was because of how walter was just boom! gone. No one quite knows what he did. Then, when the ultrapower clones and all these other flame wars started, and nothing happened, people thought they could get away with what ever, and then started trying to get the inisent people banned, to ruin there reputation as walters was ruined. Like I said, I understand that dark has is reasons for doing what he did, and the mod reasons for not being able to do something, but asdly this changes nothing from the actual users. The more mature people will realise you have stuff going on, but even to them, even to me before I actually read your guyses posts, the one sentence, walter was banned with out a reason and these people are geting a way free, oh, red flag, bad moderation! That's what everyone thinks instantly. That's why everyone wants the walter proof so badly. Speaking of which dark, if it's ok with you, I may contact you privately about the matter. Again though, I feel as if personally I get it, your busy and have to agree on things, dark has his reasons for banning walter and the busyness stopps the action on these guys trying to ruin the forum, but I hope you understand ware i'm coming from in terms of what i've heard from the general comunity. before I can do what I always do and repeat my self, based on what I've heard so far from you guys and others I can't think of anything else to say right now. At least, I think a topic should be created in a room that's a bit more public to tell people your side of what's going on. Problem is, that could start a lot of stuff if it isn't put out there in just the right way.

I am a web designer, and a game developer. If you wish see me at http://www.samtupy.com

2016-06-23 01:25:29

Way too much of this sounds familiar. the parts that don't are fairly encouraging, though.
I'm not sure if it'd be appropriate for me to summarize the various examples I'm thinking of (there was an agreement not to bring up one of them to certain people but I'm not sure if it extends here and that was 11 years ago and I don't know how she'd feel about it now and I feel like asking would violate the agreement).

Is the forum breaking up into cliques? I think it might be. That is a rather volatle situation that no one has ever really managed to solve. (Otherwise, we wouldn't have High School and Politics giving people so much grief.)

(I know I'm normally quite bad at keeping on topic and saying anything comprehensible, but I'm being vague here for a reason.)

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

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2016-06-23 05:26:07

With the Walter situation.
That is the one instance when, in nearly 9 years of moderation, I have actually felt there was a legitimate, real, and physical threat to members of the community. This extended rather beyond Walter's behaviour on Survive the wild into other things he's done. no, normally we would not intervine on such a matter, but the case was so extreme that members were reporting to me they did not feel safe on the forum.

Yes, all the evidence and the several testimonies I recieved  could! have been falsified, but the corroboration by different people was what convinced me and I had to act in the judgement of what I felt was best for the community in that case, knowing indeed that it would! make me unpopular.
I will also say that it disappoints me that people are so quick to assume that lying has occurred and blame the victims. I cannot and will not ask anyone involved to publicize the information regarding Walter's behaviour, but with attitudes as they are from some quarters it's not too surprising that they choose to do things in confidence, and I'd be a pretty cruddy moderator if I went and broke that confidence.

As to the trouble making, I will say another problem is that I have likely been less involved with the forum recently than I could be due to basicaly getting married and changing a lot of circumstances in my life. I can no longer spend several hours a day reading the forum, checking many topics and dealing with things on the spot. This is also why I encourage people to use the report link when people like Blink wizard cause issues regarding hacks etc, since the moderators are not omnipresent, and the more we know about drama trolls and such, the more likely action is to be taken, since while as others have said we like to take things easy for the most part and hope people will calm down, a point is reached when enough is enough and if posts are reported it's likely certain people will reach that point sooner than later, or at least see that point approaching and hopefully clean up their act.

I'll also say that I've noticed that certain people have a habbit of wanting to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble, and as part of that will also try and  aggrandise themselves by exasserbating the size of the trouble they actualy caused.
In truth I'd say %95 of the topics on the board are still drama free, and generally the hacks and drama only occur with a specificset of individuals, indeed the drama as I said above seems to occur in individuals of! that set, so while I take these points very seriously and will be keepin a watch on reports (as much as I can), I equally don't think we need to be sounding the claxons for defcon one quite yet.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-06-26 13:12:44

Hi dark sir!
I am very sorry for posting this.
but I see that sam is right.
also I have one question but please treat farely
If I were a girl and just report any person on the forum whom I don't like then will you ban him?
if I were a girl and just ask money to you in the e mail will you give me?
the answer is not.
so why you gave the advantage to lori Duncan?
I know dark you have Mrs dark and your dad's situation is what as you have posted
But I also know that you treated walter unfarely.
lori posted that youlanda was offensed by walter and after 3 days she was dead.
For your kind info Mister dark if you read this carefully
that youlanda is still alive and in fact it is lori who created two fake Idees
sam you agree?
because whenever I saw the player list of sTW I see youlanda.
so dark sir!
are you still in the dark or you get some light cardination after that?
if walter behaved unfarely in STW then he should be banned from STW but Mister dark ruined his audiogames.net forum's life.
also  when the ivan sodo posted the BTB then you deleted that when I offensed these 3 shits.
you should not forget coltin's damn drama that his depression.
So that is the point.
o one thing more.
a teen-age jonikster posted that the dating topic then where all of the rules gone?
why Mister dark suggested to date one of the nearest girl instead of the online website.
I do agree that most of the topics are drama free but if you can ban walter if you are so courigious mod, then where all the courage disappear when we report UP clones and these stupid topics?
I hope to get an answer from Mister dark not from others.
Thanks
Ishan

life's battle do not always go to the stronger and faster man,
But sooner or later who win the one who thinks he can!

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2016-07-01 02:07:41

Ishan, although you said that you only want to hear from Dark, I think that I must disagree with two of the things that you said in your post. Firstly, Laurie was not receiving sympathy just because of her femininity, but because she was being threatened and abused, and that is something that Dark chose not to tolerate. Secondly, Colton's depression is not a "drama" but actually quite serious. Depression is a very severe mental health issue and it should be treated as such. I would find it very difficult to believe that Colton would joke about such a thing on a public forum.

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2016-07-04 11:07:28

Hi tjt
I will quite agree but the fact is that
Lori Duncan created two fake IDees one astra and the second one is youlanda.
that's the text log said.
also if youlanda is in a problem so she should complain?
yes of course she should come to the forum and post about walter.
If walter was a guy who threatens everyone so Why he din't threaten me?
I don't know lori Duncan personally but when I see these text logs I can surely say that what type of girl she is.
also now come to Coltin hill's drama.
when he fails he is acting like a baby that o God I am failed I hate this world.
Just because he want to produce an unauthorised game.
Thanks
Ishan

life's battle do not always go to the stronger and faster man,
But sooner or later who win the one who thinks he can!

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2016-07-04 11:49:53

Colton's depression is something I will not discuss here because it is a very personal and serious matter that extends far beyond his involvement in game development. Laurie did post accusations against Walter on audiogames.net, and several other people also posted accusations against Walter. From what I can see of the below-referenced topic, Walter liked to threaten females who he thought would not be able to defend themselves. You even posted on this topic, and I find your remarks there to be as blunt and insulting as your comments in post 12 here. Dark even explained there that "lori has been a long standing member of the community and I'm quite aware she doesn't accuse people of this out of the blue, indeed I encouraged her to speak out about this precisely so that others will be better able to keep themselves safe." The topic is at http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?id=18320.

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2016-07-04 12:57:48

yup I know.
I have seen this TJT and those childish people like coltin lori ivan and vlad should require a ban.
these shits want to creat drama.
Who knows vlad and ivan will post another BTB.
I was also a victim of lori duncan
Who cares.
I was banned  from audyssey not because for my post but for lori dark knows of when I agree with w.lomas
Thanks
Ishan

life's battle do not always go to the stronger and faster man,
But sooner or later who win the one who thinks he can!

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2016-07-04 13:17:01

I'm confused. What was Laurie doing that you were a victim of?

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2016-07-04 14:00:26

moderation!
Guys can we please stop this name calling. We've already been through the situation even privately with the moderators and if you continue to do this you'll only create more drama. I don't know who's really to blame, but the fact is, what's done is done.

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2016-07-04 21:57:33

I think this topic is a perfect candidate for closure. People are just deteriorating into he said / she said, bringing up drama about x, y, or z, or flat-out name calling and bashing. It's serving no gaming or productive purpose, other than as an avenue to air out dirty laundry. Please press that magical button?

Spill chuck you spots!

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