2009-03-18 22:32:31

(a note to audiogames.net forum members):
For developers and members who are interested in learning more about Windows 7, feel free to reply to this topic and I will try to answer as many questions as possible. I will continue to test more audiogames with this Operating System and will update this topic accordingly.

As of recent days, Windows 7 builds seem to be popping up everywhere from within Microsoft headquarters. This is no surprise -- after all, we are close to a public RC (release candidate) build, which will hopefully come in April.

The recent installment of Windows 7, at least the one which Tech net subscribers received, is build 7057. I have reviewed build 7048 in the past -- So I will not go into detail on what has changed in preparation for the Release candidate, but I encourage all to go back and read that review in order to see a complete RC picture.

This time around, I focused on doing tests (benchmarks as they are called) of this build with various applications. Microsoft has strived to correct a lot of the issues found in Windows Vista -- and application compatibility was one lacking area that Operating System missed. There have been many efforts in making Windows 7 as compatible as can be -- including programs which could run in Windows XP but were unable to in Windows Vista. Since Windows 7 is built on the foundations of Windows Vista, applications which could run previously should be compatible and functional.


After installing this build, I was determined to "test" this theory and see, the truth: How compatible is Windows 7 with various applications?

I again delved back to downloading the various accessibility products on the Blind and Low Vision market. These included Screen Readers as well as a few low-vision products. So what were my results in terms of accessibility?

Jaws for Windows:
As I have mentioned in my 7048 review (another reason to read it!), JAWS and other screen readers lack the ability of reading text which is located above links in Windows when a user tabs around the dialog. Windows 7 has become a link-filled world, with the control panel no longer containing a list view option and many applications using links to interact with the user.
In general, JAWS 10.0.512 functions well with Windows 7. At times, the "mirror display driver", which interfaces with my system's video card, does click out and this requires me to re-install the product completely (remove and reinstall process). JAWS will not read many windows without it's mirror display drivers present.
As for the latest update of the 10 release, I'd recommend that you not install it just yet. On my system, which contains an AI Radian x1400 video card, JAWS will only detect half of your screen. This means that if you were to try to use the JAWS cursor, you would only be able to perceive half of your screen's contents. The first half, to be exact -- not the status lines.
The calculator does not work with JAWS, as it's interface has been redesigned completely.

NVDA:
The open-source screen reading alternative, Non Visual Desktop Access, has a few "quirks" with Windows 7. One of these is in regards to the Start Menu, where NVDA becomes unresponsive and lags extremely when scrolling the menu. The calculator and other Windows applications work well with the 0.5 P3.2 release of the software. As I have mentioned in my build 6956 review of 7, the advantage of NVDA is the use of only Standard Windows APIs or implementations in reading the screen. This means that during ribbon controls, which are present in applications such as Wordpad, tutor messages on what the control does can be read properly.
All applications function with NVDA, including the calculator.

Window-eyes:
Nothing has changed in Window-eyes since my last attempts of testing it with Windows 7. Although it, too, lacks the ability to properly recognize the new ribbon interfaces (the first screen reader being JAWS), the video intercepting is not bad or unstable. For the past 3 days of testing, I have never received errors with the interception of graphics.

Judging from these results, Windows 7 retained most of it's compatibility throughout it's build process. This comes in no surprise, as the underpinnings of the OS have not been altered much since Vista. However, there are a few applications worth noting which will not function on Windows 7.

No more mounting Virtual images! : driver changes

For those readers who enjoy mounting a .iso image file (typically containing the contents of a full DVD or CD), you will not be able to use Demon Tools or the popular Alcohol 120% Virtual mounting software. Windows 7 refuses to install the drivers, and consequently you receive the "setup needs to restart your computer" statement all the time. Of course, you could restart a billion times (I dare anyone to try that!), but in no way will you install these products. Instead, I recommend that you use a free alternative, known as virtual clone drive. Virtual Clone Drive offers less supports in terms of what images you can mount, but for now that is the best solution for at least installing software from an iso image.

Sound recording (directly from a soundcard input):

I am a radio DJ at
http://djtom.hitmeradio.com
, and my job requires me to stream audio directly from my soundcard. In Windows XP, the Recording Control served as the main tool and venue towards accomplishing this goal. However, since the release of Vista, the Volume Control is no longer present. Instead, one must go through control panel into sound and select the recording tab. Here, if you press the application menu, you will find an option "show disabled devices". Checking this will add a few more items to the list of sound recording hardware on your system. The shoutcast DSP Winamp plug-in, which is what I use to broadcast with, automatically enables the Stereo mix. Clicking set as default allows me to again stream my soundcard into my show just as before.
In Vista, my "stereo mix" option, which is what I use to directly record sound from my card, was not present even if I ran the shoutcast plug-in. Although this process is the same for Vista Users-- 7 seems to provide more support in allowing the presence of this option.


DirectX games (for the blind):

The visually impaired play gams too! Accept that our gaming products feature very little to no graphics. Instead, they use and rely on DirectX Sound to produce intended audio and realistic 3D surroundings.

It has been reported to me in the past that Windows 7 is the system which will lack DirectX Sound support.

I wanted to confirm or reject this statement by testing several audio games.
To my (and I'm sure, many others) satisfaction,  Windows 7 works well with even the most recent and oldest of releases and titles. Games like Entombed and Pinball xtreme work well, while others such as Mysteries of the Ancients from USA Games do not. Old titles, such as Shades of Doom (1.1 and 1.2) function still, as so do others like Hunter and pipe2. (pipe 1.0 gives a runtime error - not sure why?)

However, judging from these tests, Windows 7 still  contains Direct Sound, and I have not seen any articles on this issue or forum posts.

Build 7057 changes:  More branding

This release includes more wallpapers, as well as new user account pictures. It also seems that Microsoft Paint now has a recovery feature, where you can recover  your last drawing in case your computer crashes.
This is a very useful feature, and I am positive that we will see it surface in other applications as well. Seeing that the ribbon interface from Office has now made it into Windows -- I am sure that the file recovery/autosave features will as well!
Bugs: Squash them!

There are a few bugs to note which have come up in this build. Well. One bug to report, rather. This is an issue where notepad opens up on every startup with a desktop.ini file. This is because a desktop.ini is present in the windows startup menu folder (found in the start menu). A simple way of solving this problem is by erasing the desktop.ini file from your startup folder found in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\Startup.

Conclusions:

Testing this build of Windows 7 in depth reassured me and gave confidence on what Windows 7 really is. Although certain features are missed greatly (such as the classic start menu not being present anymore) , overall there are more good than bad to this Operating System. Microsoft's goal is to finally show the world that they can make something comprable to Windows XP, and in my opinion, this goal is well-met so far. The image (installation DVD) of Windows 7 build 7057 is 2.5 GB, while the .wim file containing expandable setup files is 2.21 GB. To recap: The .wim image for Vista was 2.24 GB (without sp1), and with SP1 it rose to 2.35 GB. Windows 7 has already shrunk itself well below the normal Vista footprint, and it seems that every build will continue to incorporate more cleaning and optimizing. After 7 is released, Windows Vista will be abandoned at record speeds, and many will talk of it just as Windows ME is being spoken of in negative terms.

-Tamas Geczy
Wednesday, Mar. 18, 2009
Visit www.eurpod.com to find my previous Windows 7 reviews as well as other product focuses!

Regards:

tomi

2009-03-19 02:20:32

Topic moved. In future please post such things to the off topic room, not the general game discussion.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-03-19 07:36:13

(This is from a JAWS perspective) Well... Seems as if Windows 7 is great... If you don't mind all the quirckyness, and half of your screen not being there with certain cursors in JAWS. Like I said in the Dual Booting Mac thread, With Win 7 scheduled to hit markets early next year, which is after the release of JAWS 11 in November, I am sure that Win 7 won't even get a JAWS beta until V12. With that, I am guessing that the stable won't even be out until at least JAWS version 13. So what's that in a timeline? Ummm, November, 2011?Sure you can use the other screen readers, but what does that do for everyone that is over the age of say 16 heading into college, into the jobforce, or already in the job market? It means that there is going to have to be a ton of money and retraining to get them to use the other readers, a ton of money spent on the other screen readers because I am pretty sure that none of them will let you transfer from JAWS to their product for just the SMA cost, and the blind community being slowed down in the job and school forces. You have to remember that JAWS is the biggest reader on the market, so a sudden switch over to something else isn't likely, either for the home user, the student, or the professional.

What happened to the days where Freedom Scientific actually tried to have the stables out when the OS hit the markets? Now, it's OS release, and FS playing catch up. Oh well, I guess that until enough blind individuals either change readers, or voice ourselves, FS and Microsoft
will continue at the rate that they are going, and the catch up stages will never grow shorter.

Gee, can you tell that I am somewhat opinionated? tongue

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-03-19 22:52:21

I still use XP. I may possibly switch to Vista, but Windows 7? I won't be using it any time soon, and I don't see how that will slow me down, as XP works just fine.

Regards,
Mike
Co-Founder, RS Games
www.rsgames.org

2009-03-20 00:00:46

I'm using XP on my desktop and vista on my laptop. From my Point of view, I don't have any reason to upgrade either. Who know's, if I upgrade, I might switch OS. If I'm going to have to learn a new interface, I'm going to learn one that will be the most beneficial to me. I don't care if it turns out to be leppor ubuntu or windows seven and FS needs to start making JFW work with seven now or I might be forced to switch if and when the time comes, but then again, we all may at some point....

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2009-03-20 19:23:07

Unless MS stops working on the basis of serial versions they'll be in big trouble too. People want improvements and new features built on top of what they're familiar with, not a reinvention.

As a notable point Apple have said they're next version Snow Leopard will be taking a break from new features to work on performance and stability. That said they plan to add support for OpenCL, which allows the compyuter to use the graphics processor for non-graphics related tasks, which could be seen as a feature... it's "under the hood" stuff though really as opposed to stuff users actually notice while moving around their computer.

Linux equally works on the basis of being constantly refined, as opposed to the Microsoft bloatware.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-03-21 00:31:38

LOL. to true. All I really care about when it comes to computers is how well it does what I want it to do. Also the price comes in to play. The more bang for the buck I get then the better the chance I will buy. Another factor that I take in to mind is, "does the OS get in the way?"

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2009-03-21 01:10:09

I also consider hardware support, for example the ability to support for example different wireless standards in the OS itself without having to use the hardware manufacturer's own utilities. The wireless utility from Netgear for example didn't seem very accessible, but the native windows ones are usually fairly reliable for that. If it's included with the OS itself accessibility is usually reasonable.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-03-21 07:36:47

One thing that no one has brought up about Win 7 in this thread... The initial reports that were let out to the Associated Press news a little while back.

"We want MS Windows 7 to be easier." and the one I really really loved when I heard it... "We want it to be  more like Mac OSX..."

I mean it's bad when a company comes out and says that they want their product to be like a competetors. That has to say something about MS as a whole. I neither see Win 7 becoming easier, or more like OSX, especially as a user of screen reading software. If anything, they keep screwing things up for us. It seems that  Open Source OSs (Ubuntu, Knoppix, Fidora, Linux and so on), and Macs are becoming more and more widely used. Another thing that is going to hurt MS with individuals such as yourselves is the lack of a "real" screen reader.You buy a Mac, you get Voice Over built right in and you can use it from teh first time you use your computer to the time where you have to repartition and reinstall the OS. With Ubuntu, there is Orca packaged right into the install, and with either a tutorial, or a little help, one can install their own OS. I honestly think that the one think really keeping MS floating right now is the fact that their PCs are a bit cheaper (from most manufacturers) than the Mac counterpart.

And as for Snow Leopard, man oh man I can't wait til that hits the market, I'll be saving my pennies and dimes to get it. Using the graphics memory for non graphics related stuff, taking better advantage of the 64bit dual processor... *drools* No, I don't like my mac, or computers in general at all. tongue

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-03-21 07:57:15

Sorry for double posting like this, but I forgot to quote this part.

cw wrote:

I'm using XP on my desktop and vista on my laptop. From my Point of view, I don't have any reason to upgrade either. Who know's, if I upgrade, I might switch OS. If I'm going to have to learn a new interface, I'm going to learn one that will be the most beneficial to me. I don't care if it turns out to be leppor ubuntu or windows seven and FS needs to start making JFW work with seven now or I might be forced to switch if and when the time comes, but then again, we all may at some point....

You might personally have no reason to upgrade, but you have to think about schools and the business world. They want the glitzy, new OS that is going to "Have to be better than the old because it's newer." You, I, and a ton of other individuals mightn not have any reason to upgrade as an individual user, but in the workforce or even school, a lot of blind people will be forced to try to "upgrade" somewhere to keep their positions at work and so on. I hate to say it, but like it or not, you might be forced to upgrade and try to use Win 7, completely working with the screen readers out there or not.

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-03-21 15:56:20

A couple points. First all those "open source" OS's you listed were actually flavours of linux. I belive Orca is actually built into the gnome GUI these days.

Also there are always businesses and educational establishments that lag behind. Back when I was in college from 2000 to summer 2004 my college was still running Windows 95, because the technicians had the bizarre notion it was more stable. They had only just decided to upgrade to XP after I left. That said it's true many people might have to use their non preferred OS due to having to use their workplace or school/college/university computers. On the other hand there is always NVDA, which should only become more of an option as time goes on. They've been given a grant by Microsoft to ensure it's compatible with Windows 7 I hear.

Those comments by Microsoft surprise me, and I imagine that guy must have got a stern talking to afterward. Then again in such a big company as Microsoft it's tricky to control what people say, they can only react to this type of comment by its staff really. This can go for the higher ups too sometimes. Unless of course they were trying to claw back some people they lost to the Mac, but I'm not sure about that.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-03-21 16:45:11

LOL. I know I hear good and bad things about windows, but I don't see paying for a upgrade unless I'm going to gain something from it and if I have to live with a interface change to gain what I whish out of a PC, I'll go the step farther and take a really close look at what I really wanting like I said earlyer. Also if I'm forced to work with a OS that I hate, I'll live with it. I'm shure all the interface changes MS is making, might Make personal users think twice.

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.
DropBox Referral

2009-03-21 20:05:30

cx2 wrote:

A couple points. First all those "open source" OS's you listed were actually flavours of linux. I belive Orca is actually built into the gnome GUI these days.

That is true, and I actually work with Ubuntu/Orca once in a while (when I feel brave) Also for fidora, Linux and some ofKnoppix, (yes, all Linux, but no ORCA IIRC) there is Speakup.

cx2 wrote:

Also there are always businesses and educational establishments that lag behind. Back when I was in college from 2000 to summer 2004 my college was still running Windows 95, because the technicians had the bizarre notion it was more stable. They had only just decided to upgrade to XP after I left. That said it's true many people might have to use their non preferred OS due to having to use their workplace or school/college/university computers. On the other hand there is always NVDA, which should only become more of an option as time goes on. They've been given a grant by Microsoft to ensure it's compatible with Windows 7 I hear.

That is true for places lagging behind, but with Vista having too many complaints, and XP being dropped by support according to MS this upcoming April (yes, next month, unless you have enterprise) it seems that Win 7 is what is going to be sought after. As for NVDA, again you are running into the problem that I stated earlier. Retraining. All these JAWS users out there are going to have to be retrained to use NVDA, which is going to put a little slow down in both school, and in the workforce, not to mention, cost businesses money for training (even if it is a lack of productivity until the user gets retrained - that is still a cost to a business).

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-03-21 21:12:43

Well NVDA isn't ready for that type of heavy use yet in my opinion. That said it didn't take much for me to adjust from Jaws, especially on the web. They just need to improve IE support for places that use it instead of Firefox, and get solid support for word/excel/access/powerpoint.

As to linux, I believe speak up only works on the command line doesn't it? Orca is part of the gnome graphical environment according to its page, which I think Ubuntu uses by default and has an option to enable Orca in the CD boot menu.

Amusingly when I looked at Windows XP home SP3 on Amazon UK it had an interesting bit under "Commonly bought together with". 3 items - windows XP home sp3 OEM, Parallels for Mac, anhd MS office. Not sure if that was office for mac or windows I didn't look closely, but amusing nonetheless that most people buying it with other stuff buy it with parallels. This doesn't mean most people buying it buy parallels, just that parallels is the most common thing to get with it.

cx2
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To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.

2009-03-22 18:50:25

Justt sort of off opic a bit, but how does NVDA do with apps like OpenOffice? Butyeah, doesn't have great support for MS ovvice adn IE... That is a MAAAAJJJJJOOOOR issue on a compuer running Windows.

Yes speakup is a command line screen reader, but by using any of the Linux based OSs, you are forced (if you do anythign real) to interact with the command line a lot. Most users of Ubuntu install Speakup side by side with Orca since one is for the Graphical Desktop, and the other is for the command line.

Visit my site at VI Tek Talk.
A discussion forum for cross platform, cross device adaptive tech as well as adaptive tech insociety and different cultures.

2009-03-22 19:43:29

Yeah, just saing Orca is probably in there somewhere too since it's own page claims it is part of the Gnome environment.

Haven't actually used NVDA much past being my backup reader for when Jaws goes wrong. Works well in Firefox though.

cx2
-----
To live by honour and to honour life, these are our greatest strengths and our best hopes.