2016-03-19 22:07:08

Hello.
I've been reading the wheel of time books for a while now. I like them but I'll admit I've read better fantasy novels. Right now I'm on the tenth book crossroads of twilight which is good so far. I did something I probably shouldn't have I peaked at the end of the last book a memory of light.
Spoilers!
I read the last chapter leading up to the epilogue although I stopped there I didn't read the epilogue. My question is I read the part where rand breaks the seals on the dark one's prison and battles it. He throws it back into the pit and seals it up again because he realizes the dark one isn't the enemy and that people need the dark one. I don't understand this all throughout the books people talk about how bad the dark one is and how if it were freed the world would be destroyed. So then why doesn't rand destroy it when he has the chance? Why is it not the major enemy it's made out to be? Even if the dark one is sealed isn't it possible that it could break free in the future just like it almost has in the books?

Guitarman.
What has been created in the laws of nature holds true in the laws of magic as well. Where there is light, there is darkness,  and where there is life, there is also death.
Aerodyne: first of the wizard order

2016-03-20 01:03:07

Hi Guitarman.

My lady who is a huge wheel of time fan, upon learning that you read the last chapter before getting to it, instructed me to smack you, so consider yourself smack'd!

Beware! spoilage ahoy!

Actually Guitarman the reason that Rand doesn't destroy the dark one is revealed earlier in memory of light. I'll say that reading the  last chapter probably wasn't a good way to get the ending, sinse Rand's battle with the Dark one carries on throughout a large part of the book, indeed Memory of Light is more like an extended climax to the hole series than one novel.
Nope, I'm not going to tell you why, but suffice it to say there is a dam good reason.

My lady appologises for smacking you and says "enjoy the series" and also that things improve much more after crossroads of twilight, indeed I'd agree with her too, knife of dreams is where the end starts to pick up again and things really start moving after the somewhat slumpy bit in books 6-10. The conclusion is great, and the last three books rock, indeed I give Sanderson much credit in carrying on the momentum started by jordan in Knife of dreams.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-03-20 05:02:33

Yeah, the series starts out decent, turns into the middle of Dragonball Z only worse, then Crossroads of Twilight hints that Robert Jordan might have brought it back to decent but we'll never know because that's when Brandon Sanderson came in and gave us a pretty spectacular ending.

Spoiler-tinted rant follows.
It's kinda long.
Don't say I didn't warn you.


Having read all of Memory of Light, I still find the explanation to be ... unsatisfying. In retrospect, I can see some build-up from earlier, but it's not the sort that justifies it so much as foreshadows it in a symbolism sense. But that's probably because it screams "lazy theology 101", which I stopped taking seriously about the time I got to the Book of Isaiah[1]. In the WoT-verse, the Dark One is more like the Zoroastrian Demiurge, I guess, and I can see the series building up to the whole balance thing as early as the prologue to Eye of the World. Yet this wasn't really invoked in Rand's battle with the Dark One, and it became "BTW if there's no force of darkness constantly assaulting the world, there can be no free will or something, I dunno, this wasn't mentioned until the last minute and you couldn't have seen it coming unless you already believed it".
It seems kinda like the Dark One and the Creator weren't demonstrated to be equal and opposite forces necessary for turning the wheel, and more that the duality the series had been promoting was the male/female duality, rather than good/evil. You can see this even in the part where Rand seals the Dark One: the One Power has two distinct parts, and the Dark One's power is something completely different. So is it a metaduality? A trinity? If the light can be subdivided into Saidin/Saidar, and further into earth/fire/air/water/spirit, is that another part of the dueality--the Dark One's power is one amorphous miasma, and the Creator's is multifaceted? But if that's the case, why would the absence of the Dark One take away Free Will™. Is the One Power not diverse enough and balanced enough to stand on its own? Is this a case of "two are better than one--see, it takes two (Saidin and Saidar) to defeat the (Dark) One, but you gotta have both sets, instead of just letting Saidin and Saidar handle the whole Yinyang thing."
I dunno, I might have been more willing to buy it if it hadn't appeared to come out of a last-minute "BTW this is my solution to the problem of evil, and it turns out that the story ran on this solution the whole time" grab-bag. If the story had given more hints in earlier books (and their being a Dragon and a Neiblis is not quite hint enough). The best I can say for this being built up is Ishamael's monologue in the EotW prologue, and I suppose it should have more weight, since he was a theologian. (Also, that makes his reasoning for turning to the dark disturbingly hard to refute: if all it takes is one victory for the Dark One, and he gets infinite tries, and each try is slightly different from the previous, he will eventually win. Of course, since the Dark One is Elemental Evil and Decay, joining him and opposing him are equally likely to end in Hell, so I'd have to argue that opposing him is better on the grounds that the longer a not-quite-Hell world exists, the better.)
Oops, I did that thing where the parenthetical deserves its own paragraph, again.
Because, if we grant Ishamael's argument--given infinite tries with random variation, the Dark One eventually wins and plunges creation into eternal darkness--then we have an argument in favor of killing the Dark One! If we're going to lose all Free Will™ eventually no matter what, then the optimal strategy is to kill the Dark One so that it's at least a nice eternal slavery. When, though? One would need to determine exactly how many times the wheel has completed a full cycle, then come up with how many things would need to go wrong for the Dark One to escape and their likelyhoods. A few centuries of correcting the inevitable math errors later, you should be able to determine exactly which iteration of the Dragon should kill the Dark One and plunge humanity into an eternal loop of "It's a Small World". But knowing fiction, that's the iteration when the Dark One would win just ahead of schedule, because trying to kill him backfired or some such, or the dragon turned out less capable than Rand or Lews Theren.

Gah, this is but one of the many reasons I avoid discussing theology or the Wheel of Time outside of some very tiny corners of the universe. -_-

[1] It's probably better not to ask. If it helps, I've gotten the impression that the Quran supports a more WoT-esc interpretation?

看過來!
"If you want utopia but reality gives you Lovecraft, you don't give up, you carve your utopia out of the corpses of dead gods."
MaxAngor wrote:
    George... Don't do that.

2016-03-20 06:03:26

@cae, as a correction, Knife of dreams is %100 Jordan. This is why I don't agree with people who say Sanderson brought the series back single handed. yes, it improved under sanderson but those improvements were already underway with jordan, and how much is Sanderson's influence and how much jordan's is a huge mess of authorial responsability confusion which nobody can work out in a satisfactory way, so it isn'tcorrect to give creddit to either particularly.

Beware! large ranty spoilage of spoiling ahoy!

As regards WoT theology, the idea I always got was not that the creator and dark one were opposites, but that the dark one was an opposite of the one power which was life, while the creator saw the position for this opposition. This was why most people who talked of "the light" ie, children of the light were barking up the wrong tree and represented as rather nuts.

So the creator created the wheel and ket it spinning, but the wheel itself was only one on a much larger wheel that the creator was responsable for. Under that larger wheel, just as time turns and ages come and go etc, there has to be a cycle of dark one escaping and then being put back, rather like the Hindu idea of creation and destruction in cycle or the cosmological big crunch. Of course, this makes the entire series a bit pointless and cyclic, but this is exactly why the future Rand sees without the dark one is one which can't progress and has no conflict.
Actually balance wise, I'd argue in the series, being as the Dark one most of the time is crippled by his minians bickering (Moredin says as much in Memory of light), balance is a theme Jordan was trying for, albeit usually his duality is as you said more male/female or order and chaos, indeed in the way that characters progress when banding together and not taking paths of either ultra order or individualistic anarchy, and in the way that trust in Jordan land is at a premium, it seems this is where he was going all the time, especially and most blatantly in terms of Gender politics.
Also note that just because something is cyclic isn't to say that it is infinite either, or that it must go through all variations. We already know in Jordan land that alternative realities exist, indeed it's those very realities that become the major battleground for the dark one and rand and which of those realities is closest to the stable cycle of the pattern.
So no, the dark one does not have to ultimately win, even though realities exist where he does so for the pattern to continue and be semi eternal, if not infinite.

I also wouldn't put too much store by anything ishamael says, sinse firstly he's a nutjob, and secondly Jordan had not worked out how all the cosmology worked, for example his implication that the dark one was lord of the grave and therefore got dominion over anyone who died anyway, as per rand's vision of his mother being tortured in Eye of the world.

The worrying thing for me with jordan in terms of his cosmology is his implication that what caused the release of the dark one in the first place was the attempt for men and women to use the same power. This, combined with all that semi freudian men fight, women surrender nonsense we see in the series, not to mention quite a bit of standardised ways he writes female characters suggest a very rigid gender view which is born out in the cosmology, indeed if looked at in that sense WoT is actually an anti feminist novel sinse it claims male and female equality is not just harmful, but actually causes the world to shatter and the forces of nastiness to get free from their prison and stop the age of legends in it's tracks.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-03-21 16:37:06

It very simple and is pretty much true for any good vs evil story.

Without evil there can be no good.

Good and evil are relative to each other. Take away either one and the other looses the point of reference that gives it meaning.

2016-03-21 16:47:16

Well that does seem to be true for WoT, though it isn't so much that there is no good without evil i think so much as that there needs to be a degree of tention between opposite forces in order for progress to happen and for the world to work correctly. This is why I tend to believe Jordan was thinking more in terms of the dark one being part of the over all pattern of the wheelitself.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-03-23 04:12:47

Hi!
This is all very interesting!
@Dark, lol I deserved that smack. My curiosity got  the better of me.
I got that impression too that men and women  working together always leads too bad things which I think is a silly thing to put in any book. But besides that, one thing that makes it hard for me to read wot is that the characters are always fighting, sneaking around, and plotting against each other. I think if their was less fighting among the characters the series could have been shortened considerably. The only 2 characters who act normal in wheel of time are min and moiraine. Reading the last few books I've noticed everything slowing to a halt. And for as long as I've read it egwene's story line seems to be going nowhere. I'm glad to hear that the pace picks up in knife of dreams that makes me want to rush through crossroads of twilight quickly!
@Cae, your posts were very interesting thank you for that. I've got a lot to think about. One thing about the wheel of time that gives me a good laugh is that the world is in serious danger because of the dark one and his minions but people are more worried about politics and who's on this or that throne. I mean come on if you know that the world is possibly going to end very soon why on earth are you worried about silly political games? I just wonder if jordan wrote it that way on purpose or if it was unintended.

Guitarman.
What has been created in the laws of nature holds true in the laws of magic as well. Where there is light, there is darkness,  and where there is life, there is also death.
Aerodyne: first of the wizard order

2016-03-23 08:33:46

@Guitarman, to be fare to Jordan he generally has things work out when men and women work together, there is a huge bit in Winter's heart which you might not have reached yet that illustrates this. The bit I tend to think was a little silly was the implication that men and women drawing the same power was what caused the dark one to break free, as though desiring men and women to have the same source of power or life style was a bad thing.
I've also noticed in Jordan a general tendency to have female characters bicker very much and generally run around ineffectively, indeedI read some fascinating stuff by Helen Lowe, a poet and Author on her blog where she concluded that for all most people see Jordan as a feminist writer she felt he was exactly the opposite, her blog is here

As to mistrust, yes, that gets on my whick as well, indeed it sort of amuses me that the dark one's minians are so ineffective due to the fact they spend more time backstabbing each other, particularly sinse unlike the politics in game of thrones where, to coin the phrase "you win or you die" in Jordan land it seems "You win and must continue to replay games against defeated opponents who might or might not like you but who utterly refused to die even when they fail the ultimate master of evilness who really should kill them horribly but has more fun returning them to bimble around as miner characters!"  (usually doing laundry, what is it with Jordan and women doing laundry!).

However, I can say Knife of dreams is where lots of things pick up, including many plots.

My lady would also heartily approve of you sinse Min and Mwarane are two of her favourite characters, though she's also a fan of Ninaeve, particularly sinse she is tiny herself and gets rather sick of books with tall, commanding statuesque women.
We've also had very amusing arguements about what Aja my lady would be if she were Ais sidai, and indeed what Aja I'd end up as if the Asherman had Ajas.
I've said categorically my lady is a green, but she insists she's closer to the yellow, though to my mind she's not that officious, (most of the yellows are so dedicated they're rather snippy which is not my lady's personality at all).
Likewise if the Ashaman had Ajas I'd probably be somewhere between the brown or green myself.

Min is probably my favourite lady, mostly because she's the only one who Rand has anything that's vaguely like a real relationship with as opposed to the usual Jordan kiss kiss, slap slap, you've been sleeping with someone else no I haven't but I won'ttell you or deny it I'll just sneak around and act all offended and avoid you sinse surely that will allay your suspicions type of relationship that most couples in the series have, then again I would say that sinse my lady is rather like Min in personality herself.

Actually I tended to prefer the female characters to the male ones, though I was less keen on ellane, then again Mat certainly had his amusing moments.

Btw, I am not sure if you saw the wheel of time abridged that I posted a while ago, if not Find it here
It's a very hilarious take on the books of the series right up to crossroads of twilight that I originally found on a WoT forum and rescued due to the wayback machinn, and actually captures the spirit of the series, all the sneaking and misstrust and endless politics remarkably well, and in a very hilarious manner.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-03-24 00:55:38

I think Jordan hit it spot on with all the political infighting going on. I think that if the real world were put into a catastrophic situation, rulers and politicians would be either A, ignoring/denying it, or B, putting themselves in the position to grab as much power as they could.

thanks,
Michael

2016-03-24 06:48:31

@Drumbs61, I don't disagree with the amount of political in fighting in the series, just that in reality politics was far more brutal especially in times of absolute monarchy.
Take Thomas Cranmer. henry the eighths chief adviser, a position he got to by basically backstabbing his rival and prooving allegations against him, however he made one fatal mistake, arranging the mariage of Henry to Anne of Cleeves, a reputedly rather fat, less than pleasant looking lady who the king definitely didn't like.
Needless to say his majesty was not amused, and Cranmer basically was exiled from court. No, he didn't then start a rebellion, he didn't then wander around hoping to find some miner characters, his name was mud as far as Henry went and he stayed far away sinse others who offended the king were more likely to end up having very nasty stuff happen.

This is where I find Martin's politics far more believable than Jordans, sinse in Martin offend those in power and clonk! that's it. In Jordan, it doesn' matter how brutal those in power are (and several monarchies are pretty brutal),  very few people have anything perminantly bad happen, indeed to say the series is all about the dark! one it's amazing how many people are pretty ambiguous characters, most of the forsaken are just petty (with a few exceptions), and the same goes for at least most of the main cast (rand certainly isn't exactly heroic, or even pleasant most of the time, indeed he's a right git).

So, while I don't disagree with you on the infighting and selfishness, I suspect in reality it would be far more brutal and less polite than Jordan's representation.

For the reccord I will say this is where my lady and I do disagree with each other, she finds Jordan's rather safer world where character rarely if ever exit the series far preferable to martins where everyone walks around on a knife edge, nobody is safe and characters you like or don't like get killed off on a regular basis.
I personally hold the opposite view particularly as regards politics and relationships (sinse most people who are together don't tend to mistrust each other that much), indeed midway through WoT there are actually so many characters I rather wish some of them got the chop just to thin things down and make the story more easy to follow big_smile.

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)

2016-03-27 05:28:27

Hello Dark.
Yeah I think if there was a dark one in the real world things would probably be worse then in the wheel of time. We would probably be overrun with shadowspawn lol! All the time jordan spends on politics, sneaking, around, seanchan invasion and politics, and everything else the series probably come down to only a few books lol.
You should check out this great author brent weeks. He writes fantasy very brutal actually when I read it I thought it very much like the real world. He has magic in his books assassins things like that. The books remind of game of thrones in some ways.
I agree with you I don't like rand either. I can't believe jordan couldn't have written rand so he could be normal. Rand is always going on about how everything's terrible and how he has to save the world. Plus he has three girlfriends. I can't figure how he managed that it's not like he's a bundle of charm lol. I love women but my rule is one at a time. I wonder what jordan was thinking when he made wrote rand?
I'm starting to realize that the series is overloaded with characters. I've heard other people mention this but I was hoping it wasn't true. I'm having trouble keeping track of all the plots so I find myself having to read the wheel of time wiki to remember something that happened with one character or another. I want to finish wheel of time but it just seems over complicated to me. I'm used to things like robin hobb, discworld, brandon sanderson stuff like that. No to say that the stories are not complex their just easier to read then jordan and in other fantasy books the characters behave normally and the character are people you can releate too.

Guitarman.
What has been created in the laws of nature holds true in the laws of magic as well. Where there is light, there is darkness,  and where there is life, there is also death.
Aerodyne: first of the wizard order

2016-03-28 08:05:01

Goodness knows what Jordan was thinking with Rand, indeed Jordan's hole thing about relationships where people don't trust each other was very! irritating, indeed of Rand's three girls the only one I really thought something of was Min, who actually seemed to have something approaching a real relationship rather than all the usual Kiss kiss slap slap Jordan style of thing, (I feel rather sorry for Jordan's wife sometimes if she had to put up with this sort of thing).

All that being said, Wheel of time does have it's moments awesome moments, albeit mostly towards the beginning and the end, despite Rand being a git, and the fact that characters really do just ile up until there are waaaay too many, still it's got a great ending once you've got through crossroads of twilight. That's why I prefer martin, apart from the fact things are generally much! darker in the world of Ice and Fire, while he has many characters and some very merky politics, lots do leave the series and he  doesn't start just piling them up, indeed given that Martin's politics is fr more likely to get people killed (as was the case in real world historical societies like that), I always found I paid far more attention.

Brent Weeks I haven't read, but he's recommended on fantasybookreview.co.uk, and I have downloaded his books so I'll give them a try at some point though the amount of stuff I have to read at the second is insaaaaaane!

With our dreaming and singing, Ceaseless and sorrowless we! The glory about us clinging Of the glorious futures we see,
Our souls with high music ringing; O men! It must ever be
That we dwell in our dreaming and singing, A little apart from ye. (Arthur O'Shaughnessy 1873.)